Outflanking and reserves

[Omen-maul]

Ok wasnt sure if this was the right forum to post this but was after some other peoples imput...been e-mailing GW and have not received an answer in the last 10 days......and the 1-800 number referes to emailing as they are unable to answer questions via the phone....

 

Had a curious situation come up in a game with my white scars.

My opponent spread his force along one of the short table edges (under the impression that i would end up immediately (skipping my movement and shooting phase for those units) in hand to hand when my units came in from reserves outflanking) there was no gap available for any of my models to come on on that edge.

 

So when a unit does come on and rolls a table edge that they cannot arrive on ...what happens

 

1 unit is destroyed?

2 unit ends up in hand to hand?

3 unit remains in reserves?

4 unit comes on by another table edge? ( you re deployment or the opposite short table edge.)

5 something else?

 

Really did not like loosing Kor Sarro Khan that way...not to mention my bike squads.

 

in my opion loosing units with out a fight seems kinda outa of the spirit of the game ... even deep striking units if they misshap have a chance to live through it....

 

 

possibley a misshap reserve table needs to be made up....anyway, just after some imput from other gamers...

[SeattleDV8]

It is a grey area in the rules.

Nothing is stated directly.

Some people point to the BRB pg. 94. "If a unit has a special rule forcing it to move in a specific direction.........or that could stop it from moving, the rule is ignored in the phase that it arrives from reserves."

Since Outflanking is a special rule then it would be ignored.

What you do then is not clear.

1) Come in from your own board edge as normal reserves?

2) Try again next turn?

This should be discussed BEFORE the game.

The automatic destroying of units seems overpowered to me.

[Aarkon]

So when a unit does come on and rolls a table edge that they cannot arrive on ...what happens

 

1 unit is destroyed?

 

Well the 'Trapped' rule for falling back would support the argument that the unit is destroyed as the unit can't make it's legal move. Now I said the 'Trapped' rule from BRB pg 45 would support an argument for it but it wouldn't be the way I would lean.

 

2 unit ends up in hand to hand?

 

Definatly not, Since you can not move to within 1" of an enemy model you certainly can't 'start' in Hand To Hand since you can't charge in the movement phase. This would support deep striking into hand to hand as well, which we know you can't do.

 

3 unit remains in reserves?

 

I would say not, you rolled and they are to come on the table, thus I would say that they must enter play when you rolled them. If they stayed in reserve you might end up with the same problem next turn all the way down to turn 5 in which case they must come out and you are back to the same problem again.

 

4 unit comes on by another table edge? ( you re deployment or the opposite short table edge.)

 

I would say no to the opposite short table edge. If that were the case there would be no reason to roll. You would just deploy them on the side you wanted. This would give an army the ability to line one table edge with his own models and thus 'force' all his outflanking units to the other table edge which might be where he wants them and you'd lose the random roll all together.

 

My vote would go for your deployment table side. Effectively, your unit was trying to out flank the enemy army, apon seeing that they anticipated your move, your unit then swings back to re-join your army at its initial depoyment.

 

5 something else?

 

See above.

[rat of vengence]

I don't think there is a hard and fast rule about this, but your opponent was effectively denying you a game. This is NOT a tactic. Limiting your opportunities to outflank, yes. blocking the whole side, lame. Dreadsock him.

 

RoV

[Aarkon]

I don't think there is a hard and fast rule about this, but your opponent was effectively denying you a game. This is NOT a tactic. Limiting your opportunities to outflank, yes. blocking the whole side, lame. Dreadsock him.

 

RoV

 

Actually I have played Omen_Mauls army and it is a whole army that outflanks. So, if I am playing him and I know he is going for a total Out Flank army then you can bet I am going to try and deny him the ability to out flank on the side he wants to. I see it as a totally valid tactic.

 

The reverse would be I should just let him drop his bikers and named characters in my back feild un-contested?

 

No way, If I know I am playing an army that is going to deny me turn 1 and turn 2 and then try to out flank the total army I will do everything in my power to black that army from comming on the side it wants and force it to come on from a diffrent side.

[nighthawks]

A totally valid tactic? yes. force an insta-kill on units arriving from that side? can't be - at least shouldn't be.

 

as stated, discuss pre game. destruction as a penalty should be taken off the list of options, it's absurdly over-powered. My vote (though FULLY without rules to back it up) would be to arrive on the deployment zone edge.

[Grey Mage]

I would go with the reference to pg. 94, as under "outflank" it says "Models move onto the table as described for other reserves, above."

 

Above, two paragraphs, it says "If a unit has a special rule forcing it to move in a specific direction (such as 'rage', for example) or that could stop it from moving, the rule is ignored for the phase when it arrives from reserve."

 

So the use of outflank would force it to not move as it cant move within 1" of the enemy, and thus would be unable to move- as there is no movement off the table eh?

 

Note however that this wouldnt apply to jump infantry or landspeeders- they can move over any enemy models as long as they dont end their move within 1" of the enemy.

 

So if your opponent is using this tactic then just start bring assault squads and multimelta landspeeders- its rather fluffy for a white scars army anyways, and with those units being a threat perhaps your opponent will tire of losing his units to these without a fight.

 

You might also consider playing on a 6x4 of 8x4 table... outflanking is brutal on a 4x4 as theres very little you can do to stay outside of charge/melta range.

[Frosty the Pyro]

It is a grey area in the rules.

Nothing is stated directly.

Some people point to the BRB pg. 94. "If a unit has a special rule forcing it to move in a specific direction.........or that could stop it from moving, the rule is ignored in the phase that it arrives from reserves."

Since Outflanking is a special rule then it would be ignored.

What you do then is not clear.

1) Come in from your own board edge as normal reserves?

2) Try again next turn?

This should be discussed BEFORE the game.

The automatic destroying of units seems overpowered to me.

 

 

I would interpet it as if the outflanking is ignored it comes in like normal reserves from your own table side. Which realy isnt so bad sense if hes blocking a whole table edge you can come in on your edge neear the corner, which is still right next to his guys.

 

Side note. When coming in from reserves you actualy start just off board and then move, the rules say you cant END your movement within 1" of the enemy, therefore if there is enouph space between enemy models that the base of your models could squeeze through, you may still do so.

[Aarkon]

Side note. When coming in from reserves you actualy start just off board and then move, the rules say you cant END your movement within 1" of the enemy, therefore if there is enouph space between enemy models that the base of your models could squeeze through, you may still do so.

 

Actually thats not totally true, what the movement rules say on page 11 of the BRB is "To keep this distinction clear, a model may not move within 1" of an enemy model unless assulting."

 

It doesn't actually say when you finish your movement, actually at no point in your movement from point A to point B are you able to be within 1" of an enemy model.

 

A totally valid tactic? yes. force an insta-kill on units arriving from that side? can't be - at least shouldn't be.

 

as stated, discuss pre game. destruction as a penalty should be taken off the list of options, it's absurdly over-powered. My vote (though FULLY without rules to back it up) would be to arrive on the deployment zone edge.

 

I didn't mean it was a valid tactic to force and instant kill. In fact in my post prior I said that my vote would be that the models come in on your own deployment zone. So at no point did I think it was valid to force instant kill. I just said it was totally valid to force him to come out somewhere else on the board.

[Gunstar]

and if you have vehicles you can always tank shock him as you come on...

 

I agree with frosty- it SHOULD be that you come on on your own board edge in such circumstances.

[Banville]

With Tau and Guard especially I've seen people block off entire table edges. Horribly, with a troop-heavy Tau list you can prevent an army with outflank from coming on AT ALL. Kroot and Stealth Suits have Infiltrate so if enough fire-warriors are present at the other end you can effectively prevent Khan lists from doing ANYTHING. The flip side of this is that Marine players should be aware of it and just not use outflank when playng and army like this. Someone who uses this tactic (I've done it myself in 4th) is basically trying a single game-breaking tactic to frustrate your own one-dimensional tactic.

 

It's a horrible thing to do but let's face it, you shouldn't be outflanking with everything anyway. It's too random to base a gameplan around.

 

Rules wise the only concrete ruling I've heard on the matter was at the Irish GT where units that couldn't come on from reserve were, in fact, destroyed. This was in a GT environment though where time is always an issue and I presume it was ruled as such to expedite game play.

[Isiah]

Hmm interesting problem.

 

So the use of outflank would force it to not move as it cant move within 1" of the enemy, and thus would be unable to move- as there is no movement off the table eh?

 

I'd agree to this and say that the blocked reserve unit stays in reserve. Roll again next turn to get a different table edge, or on a 5 or 6 just choose a different edge.

 

There is nothing in the rules to say the unit should be destroyed, or that it should automatically default to come on on your own table edge. Keeping it in reserve (OK there's no rule for that either :o) seems the logical result of it being blocked off: it just misses it's opportunity to arrive.

 

As Aarkon said above though, that could mean a unit or units are blocked off for the entire game. The chance of that happening is very very slim indeed but yes could happen.

 

Cheers

I

[nighthawks]

With Tau and Guard especially I've seen people block off entire table edges. Horribly, with a troop-heavy Tau list you can prevent an army with outflank from coming on AT ALL. Kroot and Stealth Suits have Infiltrate so if enough fire-warriors are present at the other end you can effectively prevent Khan lists from doing ANYTHING. The flip side of this is that Marine players should be aware of it and just not use outflank when playng and army like this. Someone who uses this tactic (I've done it myself in 4th) is basically trying a single game-breaking tactic to frustrate your own one-dimensional tactic.

as much of a non-solution as this is, it does make a valid point regarding the quality of the tactic. still, though, it is legal to have an all out-flanking list and to use it as such.

[chapter master 454]

I would say they wait, and as soon as a gap is present they appear through that. Sort of like necrons, each warrior held in reserve can ether come through a monolith (if present) or in the lack of monolith (IE not in your list) come on your board edge but thats not what we're looking at. Each necron warrior unit is rolled for in reserve and lets say I get 3 out of 4 units on but wait, I have only one monolith that allows on one unit to come on through it. So one appears and 2 'stand ready' to come through when their is an opening, thus next turn another appears and then next turn the other. Now the only way of destroying the warriors in 'stand ready' or reserve and a monolith is present is for them to be stuck in reserve when the game ends.

 

Basicly I believe thats how it should work, that way not only will it mean if you block the edges your pinned in doing so (and on a 6X4 that leaves a 24" gap for your men to go through. anyway, thats my 2 hundredth of a pound sterling.

[rat of vengence]

I don't think there is a hard and fast rule about this, but your opponent was effectively denying you a game. This is NOT a tactic. Limiting your opportunities to outflank, yes. blocking the whole side, lame. Dreadsock him.

 

RoV

 

Actually I have played Omen_Mauls army and it is a whole army that outflanks. So, if I am playing him and I know he is going for a total Out Flank army then you can bet I am going to try and deny him the ability to out flank on the side he wants to. I see it as a totally valid tactic.

 

The reverse would be I should just let him drop his bikers and named characters in my back feild un-contested?

 

No way, If I know I am playing an army that is going to deny me turn 1 and turn 2 and then try to out flank the total army I will do everything in my power to black that army from comming on the side it wants and force it to come on from a diffrent side.

The OP said that the tactic was not used to just deny the side of the table, but to destroy the units that were supposed to outflank from there, hence the context of my statement ;) .

 

Besides, if you consider turn 1 and 2 denied, then maybe you should be doing more, like getting your units to the objectives or down the middle, in cover, safe from assault and able to react to either side.

 

IF we go with the consensus (not destroyed, try again or from own table edge) then blocking the flank is good area denial. But as stated in the OP, he lost several units due to not being able to deploy on that flank. That I did, and do, consider deserves a dreadsock. :)

 

RoV

[OwlandMoonGuy]

The contradiction here comes from a few rules that are not working well together. The language used in the Outflank rule is absolute, “the unit will come in from the short table edge on the player’s” left or right, etc. The Reserves rule also uses some absolute terms; in the section, Arriving from reserve, “When a reserve unit arrives, it must move onto the table from the controlling player’s own table edge (unless it’s deep striking or outflanking).”

 

In this case, we have obstructions, including enemy models blocking the designated deployment area, i.e. table edge. Essentially, we have a situation where models cannot be placed legally on the table. When looking at other rules where this happen, as in the Trapped! rule on BRB pg 45, units that cannot be placed legally are destroyed. Unlike the Trapped! rule, in this case the affected unit is moving voluntarily (not falling back) so it shouldn’t be faced with the same kind of penalty.

 

In cases of involuntary movement, affected models can, “move around these obstructions in such a way as to get back to their table edge by the shortest route, maintaining unit coherency” (pg. 45). Only if this condition cannot be met are the units destroyed.

 

In this discussion, we’ve already determined that an Outflanking unit must use whatever means it can to arrive on the table as necessary. If that means that a vehicle needs to Tank Shock, or fly over enemy models then so be it. It can still be placed legally.

 

If there are no such options available then it seems that the unit must be placed on the table at the next closest legal spot along either long table edge, even if that means it starts on the enemy’s side of the table. That is the only determination that seems consistent with all rules involved.

 

That’s my take anyway, -OMG

[Ming]

As I understand it:

 

1. Outflanking models do not have to use the special rule if they do not want to. Just like scouts do not have to make a scout move. Terminators do not have to deep strike. Thus, you can always enter as reserves from your deployment edge as normal, walking in. If you decide to outflank, you need to roll the random edge generator. It only gives you a 2 in three chance of outflanking. IIRR, you just declare what units are in reserves, you do not necessarily have to declare if they outflank/deep strike/teleport before the game starts.

 

2. I had not considered it until OMG wrote it. Tank shock your way in with a vehicle seems a viable move. Since your move starts at the board edge, if infiltrating with a vehicle, just declare the entry point, movement distance, and force the tank shock roll.

 

3. Flyers / skimmers can just come in, flying over the defenders.

 

I've seen a megabattle where one side blocked an entire table edge with troops to keep infiltrators from coming in. Cunning. We let the threat of infiltration keep those troops tied up, while our main assault carried on through the front lines. Awesome.

[Cypher 102]

You must declare that a unit is going to use outflank when you place them in reserve during deployment. You can't change your mind later.

[SeattleDV8]

You wouldn't be changing your mind, you would be ignoring the outflank rule as per BRB pg. 94. "If a unit has a special rule ......... that could stop it from moving, the rule is ignored in the phase that it arrives from reserves."

You would then revert to normal reserves.

[Cypher 102]

I was just replying to Ming.

IIRR, you just declare what units are in reserves, you do not necessarily have to declare if they outflank/deep strike/teleport before the game starts.

As for your solution I don't quite agree 100%. The outflanking rule is not what's keeping the unit from moving. It's the enemy models placed along the board edge. But your solution is the one that makes most sense and is what I would go with.

[Agrab]

Here is what i see as the case -

 

1) You must come on via flanking if you declared it

2) trapped and the like do not come into play

3) you have to come in that turn

 

now, what does this make me think exactly of...

DEEP STRIKE

 

So, i would say, roll on the mishap table

[Isiah]

"If a unit has a special rule ......... that could stop it from moving, the rule is ignored in the phase that it arrives from reserves."

You would then revert to normal reserves.

 

The unit doesn't have a special rule stopping it per se – it's the enemy units blocking it that's stopping it arriving.

 

The mishap table has solutions that would still cause problems, for instance how would the unit that was blocked suddenly then get put anywhere on the table by the enemy, or be lost in the Warp?

 

"Delayed" is the only sensible mishap outcome for a unit that isn't deespstriking.

 

Cheers

I

[Agrab]

"If a unit has a special rule ......... that could stop it from moving, the rule is ignored in the phase that it arrives from reserves."

You would then revert to normal reserves.

 

The unit doesn't have a special rule stopping it per se – it's the enemy units blocking it that's stopping it arriving.

 

The mishap table has solutions that would still cause problems, for instance how would the unit that was blocked suddenly then get put anywhere on the table by the enemy, or be lost in the Warp?

 

"Delayed" is the only sensible mishap outcome for a unit that isn't deespstriking.

 

Cheers

I

 

the problem is, the wording implies that the unit will never come on then

1) It must come on

2) It can not come on

thus, there is no choice in the matter, it tries to come on, passes within the inch, and is gone

[greatcrusade08]

Ok guys, i dont normally get involved in rules discussions, but this is one of those occasions where GW suggestion of actually talking to your opponent would help.

If i were in this position and someone tried to tell me that the unit was destroyed i wouldnt be too happy, and i definately wouldnt try this on an opponent.

Even in a competative match if you cannot agree its usually a roll off or a mediator that makes the decision.

 

So anyone who is adamant that the unit is destroyed needs to

a : Lighten up and play the GAME as its meant to be played.

b : Learn the actual way grey area rules are dealt with, at least discuss the options with your opponent at the time to create something thats fair for both players, if you cant agree then use the roll off.

 

This actually requires some social skills and the ability to find middle ground, if you have neither of these skills then perhaps solitaire is more your game ;)

 

When i win, i want to know its because i was the better/luckier player, not because i argued on some technicality that results in my opponent losing units... its just not cricket!

 

GC08

[OwlandMoonGuy]

Good sportsmanship is always the best policy in any disagreement. And, I totally agree with you, in a competitive setting a judge would make the call. The discussion here is an attempt to reconcile the game rules to the circumstance and come up with a best case resolution.

 

There are three proposed: Units arriving from Outflank that cannot be placed legally are:

 

1. Removed as causalities

2. Returned to reserves

3. Enter via the owner’s table edge

4. Enter at the next closest point on the table (i.e. either long table edge)

 

Since there is no official way to resolve the question we can only pick the one that best fits the spirit of the rules. We’re just a group of fans discussing this on a public forum so our determination carries no real weight of its own. Still, it seems to me that the Outflanking unit shouldn’t be destroyed, should be placed on the table on the tern indicated by the reserve roll and should never come with 1” of an enemy model on the turn it arrives.

 

As a tourney organizer, I’m going to be sure to put a ruling on this in the tourney FAQ.

 

Cheers, -OMG