Zaherial is the lord cypher?

[Pacific81]

Once again, spoilers for those who have not read Fallen Angels, but the points contained in it are necessary for the discussion of this thread.

 

++++++++++ SPOLIERS ++++++++++

 

 

The issue concerning the Calabanites/terrans in the legion is the only area which seems to be directly contradictory to Astelan's versions of events as noted previously. Astelan told the chaplain that the Lion had sent all of the Terrans back to Caliban, spurning them in favour of the Calabanites - however, in Fallen Angels, it seems that the opposite is true, and the Lion has sent all of the Calabanites, including Luther, back to Caliban and removed the possibility of further action in the great crusade.

 

Is he aware that Caliban is cursed by its nature, and is doomed to be destroyed? Consider this: It transpires that the Lord Cypher is the last surviving member of the Knights of Lupus, an order destroyed at behest of the Lion. Then, not only does the Lion order the keeping of the forbidden tomes and lore owned by the Knight order, but he makes this young Knight his new Lord Cypher.

 

Then, a further revelation - it seems that the Terran sorcerors in the bowels of Caliban are not casting a spell to release a demon from within Caliban - they are trying to keep it contained! In other words they are trying to save Caliban (really that the 'sorcerors' come from Terra should have been a clue in this), yet Cypher ends any chance of this with a shot from his plasma pistol and kills the leader of the sorcerors.

 

The question for me now remains - is this another example of the Lion's poor judge of character, and Cypher is working for his own dark gods, or was there a more sinister reason for the appointment of the Knight of Lupus as his agent on Caliban?

 

[The lord cypher]

the answere to that is no i am the last of the knights of lupas.

obviousely if you tell any one i will appeare in you hab unit and shoot you with my plasma pistiol and remember in my old rules it dont get hot eather lol

[CountFenring]

Just read the "Fallen Angels" book. Tough one, but here are some ideas: **spoilers to come** **WARNING-SPOILERS**

 

*Several times it was noted by Luther and others (rebels/old knights of caliban) that the Lion appeared to them as a small boy out of the darkest forest with no injuries and in such a manner that completely unnerved the knights.

 

*Remember at the time the beasts of Caliban (Clearly chaos tainted) were rampant and the Lion lived with them.

 

*Cypher was chosen by the Lion and then picked to stay behind/return to Caliban along with the majority of the Calibanite marines.

 

*There is clear indication in the book that the Lion saw what would become of Caliban and looked to hasten its slide into chaos leaving Luther holding the bag.

 

*Cypher is picked by the Lion to stoke the obvious jealousy which had smoldered in the core of Luther for a long time. Cypher is a tool of the Lion to aid Luther in his study of the chaos books/library. He clearly knows Cypher deals with chaos which could point to a very early childhood association Lion had with Cypher in his upbringing in the darkest chaos forests.

 

*It was intimated that once Luther had chaos fully taken root in him along with the planet, then the Lion would stage his return and be able to destroy his dark past roots and all those of his susceptible past in one fell swoop. Lion would then be able to keep his past entirely to himself...barring Cypher who we know is a chaos worshipper. Something to talk about for sure.

 

*Now Zemial...this is a sticking point...he had asked some uncomfortable questions directed at the Lion and the Lion was easily offended, too offended. Questions about his loyalty. Zemial is also Calibanite and was one of the early knights that wanted to rebel against the Emperor before the Emperor made planet fall on Caliban.

 

*So why would the Lion keep Zemial close?

Possibly to destabilize Zahariel in his ability to counteract Cypher and Luthers taint. The book mentioned both of them at seperate times missing the brotherhood of each other. The Lion could clearly have intended this to make Cyphers job much easier knowing how Zemial would become a strong minded Chaplain who would potentially be able to greatly buffer Zahariel against negative influence.

 

*So the question is...how deep does the Lions taint go?

I don't think it is very far. He is nuts about keeping his own secrets, but the end of the book shows his clear ambition as he says to Perturabo that he thinks he is the one who should have been warmaster, but claimed that Horus was chosen only because Horus was found by the Emperor first. On second thought he is unknowing of mans heart and obviously has a flexibly morality.

 

*It was revealed at the end of the book the Terran Sorcerers were actually trying to keep the demon bound and it was Luther and Cypher who interrupted that rite and tried to capture and use the demon. Remember the description of one of the leader of the Terran sorcerers...He was called a "towering figure".

 

?Terran Librarian? ...who knows. I know the Emperor would have known the taint when he made planet fall all those years ago. I am sure he could have put plans into action to learn the planets nature, thus putting his own sons future into serious doubt.

 

Yeah, lots of speculation, but things seem to lean toward the above more than any other way.

 

Rambling ends here, sorry.

[brother Hastatus]

Personally I found Fallen Angels to be very good, if rather confusing. And this confusion is made huge when you try and piece it together with codex DA, AoD and the short story in Tales of Heresy. I found it slightly contradictory in lots of places.

Cyher appears to be the Lions closest ally, helping him with studying Calibans taint, but stangely he then helps Luther overthrow the Imperial presence on Caliban. I think I've misread various parts.

With Astelan it is also contradictory. There is no mention of the DAs who dont think they should go and help fight Horus, as mentioned in AoD. Instead, by this time they seem to have wholesale renounced the Imperium. Astelan whoever is not really mentioned throughout the closing parts of the events on Caliban, making it possible that he chose not to renounce the Emperor and continue to fight for him, making AoD true to a certain extent.

With regards to Cypher, I think it could be either way. The current Lord Cypher appears to fit the bill fairly nicely, but Zahariel, I would of though, would survive somehow, hopefully not converting to chaos somewhere along the way.

It all seems very confusing, and I think they could have done better with making the various novels, in particular AoD and Fallen Angels, fit together.

My two cents anyway...

[andyundivided]

Personally I found Fallen Angels to be very good, if rather confusing. And this confusion is made huge when you try and piece it together with codex DA, AoD and the short story in Tales of Heresy. I found it slightly contradictory in lots of places.

Cyher appears to be the Lions closest ally, helping him with studying Calibans taint, but stangely he then helps Luther overthrow the Imperial presence on Caliban. I think I've misread various parts.

With Astelan it is also contradictory. There is no mention of the DAs who dont think they should go and help fight Horus, as mentioned in AoD. Instead, by this time they seem to have wholesale renounced the Imperium. Astelan whoever is not really mentioned throughout the closing parts of the events on Caliban, making it possible that he chose not to renounce the Emperor and continue to fight for him, making AoD true to a certain extent.

With regards to Cypher, I think it could be either way. The current Lord Cypher appears to fit the bill fairly nicely, but Zahariel, I would of though, would survive somehow, hopefully not converting to chaos somewhere along the way.

It all seems very confusing, and I think they could have done better with making the various novels, in particular AoD and Fallen Angels, fit together.

My two cents anyway...

 

I think that was the point. The Fallen use confusion and mystery as a weapon much like a bolter, and the DA's are pretty much "Rah-Rah Secretness". IIRC they're the only chapter thats not submitted to inquisitorial questioning about the Heresy (not sure where I read that). Mike Lee was trying, I think, to make you think you'd misread certain parts of the book but I'm pretty sure they're going somewhere with this.....

[Valinov]

A short and tidy explanation, it's hidden behind a spoiler bar so if you havn't read the book don't read it.

 

 

I will echo what others have said. The Lord Cypher in Fallen Angels is the final survivor of the Knights of Lupus whom after renouncing his knightly order sought to join 'The Order' and eventually become a part of the Legion. Zahariel finds this out after a conversation with Master Remiel who chased after this very man for a long time without purchase.

 

 

 

 

*It was revealed at the end of the book the Terran Sorcerers were actually trying to keep the demon bound and it was Luther and Cypher who interrupted that rite and tried to capture and use the demon. Remember the description of one of the leader of the Terran sorcerers...He was called a "towering figure".

 

The Terran Sorcerers were actually performing a ritual to allow the warp creature (Oruboro) to return to the warp after having been bound within Caliban for millions of years.

 

[Jamafore]

I realize this is off topic, but I have a 2 questions about Fallen Angels myself.

 

 

First:

If the sorcerors were trying to do a "good thing" and cleanse Caliban without the "Nuke Method," why have the dead walking around?

 

 

 

And second:

According to Astellan in AoD, the Lion was waiting to see who won before going into the Heresy, then the first thing he does when he hears the news is do a pre-emptive strike on this planet Horus will need, with the express purpose of denying it to him. Kinda lets everyone know where he stands from the get-go, doesn't it?

 

 

 

EDIT:: My apologies about the wording of this post before I edited it, Brothers, I offer no excuse for it and hopefully it will not happen again.

[Cypher6]

Zahariel = the 40k Cypher.

 

I also think Zahariel in 30k, will ^_^ the current Cypher up royally.

The speculation from the knight, that described him as an asset of El Jonson's is exactly what it was depicted as; speculation.

 

Zahariel is probably laughing at the lot of them really.

In chatting with all these people who want to wildly speculate at 'Cypher' being the Lion-tool, he realises he's got a relief point for the time being of not being exposed. ;)

[Lord Lorne Walkier]

I use to think Zaherial was Cypher but not so much theses days. It would be almost to obvious. The way the book seems to imply that all we know and think are wrong makes me think that Cypher is the person we least expect. Not Zahariel El'Zurias but his cousin Nemiel. The 40k Cypher has the Lion Sword. Who better to have that then some one close to Lion El'Jonson. I don't know how it will play out but i think Zaherial's name is on the list of Librians given to Garro by Malcador. The hard point to get by is the Weapon load out of Cypher. I do realize that anyone could pick up his two pistols and take on the role. Maybe the 2 Pistols is the Traditional weapon used by all the Cyphers.

[Aegnor]

I reckon Cypher then = Cypher now. I think it's questionable whether we understand we understand Cypher's motivations then, but in any case, it's questionable whether we understand his motivations in 40K time either. Zahariel is going to be the Loken in Luther's bunch, IMO.

 

On the Lion's loyalty, maybe he knew that the Iron Warriors were likely to be traitors. He covers himself - if the Imperium wins, "I struck a blow against Horus, and then gave the guns to a fellow primarch who we all assumed to be loyal". If Horus is winning, "Jeez Horus, do you think I'm stupid? It's obvious that Perterabo would side with you, and hence those guns were a deliberate gift to you, while leaving me room to work against the Imperium from within". Or even better, neither the Emperor nor Horus is doing so well after bashing each other, and the Lion sweeps in as the 'compromise' leader and unites those elements of both sides not sold on their current leadership. Probably shows a naivete regarding the attitudes of those he's hoping to lead, and about the nature of Chaos, but there you go.

[Roninman]

I think Fallen Angels is really confusing book. Think either author was really sneaky and tried new things or he just messed all up. Considering what i read in AoD, DoA and Tales of Heresy before this lot of things are messed up. Sometimes its Terrans send back, then on other its Calibanites.

 

If i remember correctly in Tales of Heresy, wasnt it these new Calibanite Astartes that were taking over his Legion. I remember this overeager new Calibanite Captain not liking much diplomacy. And Astellan was feeling really bad about this. It still makes him look like the "good guy" in all this.

 

Zahariel could be the new Cypher though. We still not have read next book of Dark Angels novels and lot of things can still happen. Even though 30k Cypher carries his trademark pistols, next Cypher could have of course taken them as act of respect or as symbol from previous one.

[eaglefists13]

Be aware there may be partial or whole spoilers, but seeing as how all the books I mentioned have been out for a while I don't see the problem with what I have typed below. Mods feel free to shade out anything that you feel should be.

 

Not sure what was meant by the lion being a terran supporter above, but The Lion certainly was not a supporter of the Terrans within the Dark Angels Legion. This was shown initially in Angels of Darkness with Astellan's confession to the interrogator chaplain. He explains how more and more of the Terran DA's were being shadowed by sister formations of Calibanite DA's as the crusade progressed. When we learned of this in Angels of Darkness, it was written as the confession of a Fallen Angel and therefore prone to suspicion. Now with the short story from Tales of Hersey (can't remember the name) this has been proven as fact, certainly in the Astellan situation. If this is representative of what was going on legion wide then it paints a very different picture of the DA legion than we have been lead to believe for all these years. And, also puts more credence into the name "unforgiven" for the DA and their successors.

 

As far as Zaherial being Cypher in the present day of 40K. I am on the fence. He certainly will play a largish role in the upcoming book leading into the fall and internecine war that occurs. But will he come out of it, who knows, he may be the Garviel Loken of the DA. Then again with all the emphasis on the parallels between him and his brother and the Lion and Luther, he could in fact be the present Cypher (again current time line not Hersey). Being an outside party he could be the one cursed with fusing the legion or revealing the greatest lie of the 40K universe. Partly due to his unique (thus far) psychic gift and for the fact that the parallels have been drawn and so give him a very unique view of the strife between the Lion and Luther.

 

My 2 and a half cents.

 

Cheers.

For all those who have not yet read the books get reading. As much as the books get derided for they are good reads. As i dont want to spoil anyones enjoyment I wont go into too much detail. Zahariel destiny is more likely to be the one who gets off planet to warn the Lion on the way. About 500 plus Marines with mixed loyalties would be easy meat for the whole Legion returning so why bomb the hell out of the planet. Only one person understands the full impact of the taint and this must be Zahariel and logic leaps would lead to almost believing that he convinced the Lion to destroy the planet. Why else would you blow the planet to pieces???

Maybe this is wrong but it sounds more plausible than Zahariel turning into Cypher.

Only nagging doubt is that he knows the name of the taint, which we know from Prospero burns that knowing the name gives you control??

[Piousservant]

On the Lion's loyalty, maybe he knew that the Iron Warriors were likely to be traitors. He covers himself - if the Imperium wins, "I struck a blow against Horus, and then gave the guns to a fellow primarch who we all assumed to be loyal". If Horus is winning, "Jeez Horus, do you think I'm stupid? It's obvious that Perterabo would side with you, and hence those guns were a deliberate gift to you, while leaving me room to work against the Imperium from within". Or even better, neither the Emperor nor Horus is doing so well after bashing each other, and the Lion sweeps in as the 'compromise' leader and unites those elements of both sides not sold on their current leadership. Probably shows a naivete regarding the attitudes of those he's hoping to lead, and about the nature of Chaos, but there you go.

 

 

There's nothing to support that at all. We know the Iron Warriors are traitors, but what possible reason would the Lion have for suspecting them? The Iron Warriors are one of the Legions that Dorn orders to Istvaan to fight Horus's rebellion - their loyalty wasn't in doubt at the time, why would the Lion have any reason to suspect them if Dorn didn't?

[A D-B]

This thread literally gave me a headache.

 

I don't blame you guys, mind you.

[eaglefists13]

One fact I forgot to put in my post is that the name Zahariel is a name of a classical Angel who was called upon to battle the Demon Moloch(who had the whole human sacrifice stuff going on) who was invoked to resist the temptations of Moloch.

[Larkyn]

This thread literally gave me a headache.

 

I don't blame you guys, mind you.

 

 

This thread gave me a headache, cause it was necro'ed.

[Aegnor]

There's nothing to support that at all. We know the Iron Warriors are traitors, but what possible reason would the Lion have for suspecting them? The Iron Warriors are one of the Legions that Dorn orders to Istvaan to fight Horus's rebellion - their loyalty wasn't in doubt at the time, why would the Lion have any reason to suspect them if Dorn didn't?

 

I guess there, the Lion would be drawing on the whole "Perturabo is a bitter *#£€%# who has had falling outs with Dorn and others in the past".