Primarchs and the Terran Legions

[Doghouse]

The reasoning behind this is that I'm making a Space Wolves marine to lead my Great Crusade Imperial Army force using the Colonel Straken rules. For those that don't own the new guard codex Straken is basically a commander with lots of bionics. He's got strength four, toughness four and a three plus save which makes him an excellent proxy for a space marine commander.

He's also fearless and attacks like a monsterous creature which is probably more in keeping with the background material funnily enough. The only downside being that he has initiative three and is armed with a shotgun and plasma pistol but as I'm using him as an older serving Terran I can live with that.

Truth be known he'd be great for making a Guard codex LatD army as well representing a Champion of Chaos but I'm more interested in including him in a great crusade expedition leading the guard element of the force.

 

Anyone who knows my pre-heresy stuff knows my fascination with the original terran regiments and the intregration of the post primarch homeworlds hence the captain in my armies is always a Terran.

 

There is little to say exactly how the Regiments were organised other than the Epic Space Marine article that was in WD years ago. Problem with this was that it was intended for contempory marine forces rather than any official Great Crusade stuff.

To me the Regiments were most likely to be uniform in organisation. It was only after the intregration of the lost Primarchs that the new homeworld cultures would begin to re-shape the Legions.

 

I think of all the Legions the Space Wolves under go the most radical of transformations and it'd be the older terrans that struggle the most to get their heads around it.

The way I see it is like a Roman Legion suddenly be intregrated with a very barbaric Nordic force that suddenly overwhelms their organisation and traditions.

Simple things like dueling contests being replaced by drinking competitions or the addition of animal pelts to their armour may be really difficult for them to get their heads around.

 

Basically there you are in the Space Wolves Regiment and the Emperor announces that the crusade will be taken to the stars to unite humanity.

Your Regiment is re-organised to become a Legion, which is fair enough but after the discovery of Horus you are told of the Primarchs.

The Great Crusade goes on, other Legions are re-united with their Primarchs and then you hear news of Fenris.

You get all excited having seen the nobility and god-like powers of the other Primarchs and what do you get? A hot-headed barbarian that brings a load of bearded beer swilling lunatics with him.

You ain't going to be too impressed now are you?

 

The same could be said of a great many of the Legions such as the White Scars or even some of the Traitor legions like the World Eaters I suppose.

[Aurelius Rex]

The Tales of Heresy short story collection includes a great story which touches on just this idea. 'After Desh'ea' by Matthew Farrer is a very good examination of how the Terran World Eaters - then called the War Hounds - and led at this stage by a calm Khârn, talk to their newly found Primarch. A cracking story which also mentions in passing the changes that the Iron Warriors underwent when they met Perturabo.

 

It was a good story, and worth examining further here too. :)

[Ronron]

Just a guess (haven't read up on my heresy books recently) werent the pre Primarch legions created using left over material/stuff/goo/research of the Primarchs? Or was the geneseed added once the Primarchs were discovered?

 

If the first is true would pre Primarch space wolves be more disposed to drinking contests than more civilisided pre Primarch legions? Maybe not to the scale of Fenrisian space wolves downing barrles, but the odd 8 pack here and there wouldn't hurt. In essence emulating the nature of their Primarch.

 

On a side note would Terran Space Wolves have the fangs and other 'side effects' of the Canis Helix (spelling?)?

 

Aaron

 

Edit: Spelling

[Raven Angel]

I would have to think that with the wolves there would have already been some idiocincratic behavior alredy showing up from the geneseed. and that in some ways for them the finding of Russ and the explanation of the waring feelings inside them would have been a relife and a bit like coming home. Even if home has alot more bars than you thought it would. :)

[Doghouse]

Aurelius Rex: That sounds really good! I'll check that one out asap.

 

Ronron/Raven Angel: Given that the gene-seed of the regiment was taken from Russ I'd have to say that the genetic flaws and improvements would probably been present. It's difficult to say exactly what they would have been like because there isn't really a great deal said about the regiments and the time of the unification wars except for the odd mention here and there.

I'd say that they probably were a bit hot-headed given the genetic influence of their Primarch and probably shared a lot of his character traits.

 

I think the key to the cultural influences lies with the planet's that the Primarchs were raised. It seems likely that the Terran Regiments under the direct command of the emperor most likely would have had a uniform structure because it would have been simpler.

If the Primarchs had been raised together on Terra then chances are they would have been similar but given their genetic differences there would have been distinct personality traits that set them apart.

 

The way I see it a Space Wolf raised on terra would be influenced by Terran culture in the same way a Fenrisian Space Wolf would be influenced by Fenrisian culture.

Given that the Emperor was very much about enlightenment over superstition I'm guessing that there must have been some sort of cultural clash at some point as the two were merged.

Kind of like chucking a well trained doberman in the same cage as a feral wolf I guess.

[Raven Angel]

I just kept thinking about Ragnar talking about the Beast Within and wonder if the Terran wolves would have had the same problem.

[malika666]

The Tales of Heresy short story collection includes a great story which touches on just this idea. 'After Desh'ea' by Matthew Farrer is a very good examination of how the Terran World Eaters - then called the War Hounds - and led at this stage by a calm Khârn, talk to their newly found Primarch. A cracking story which also mentions in passing the changes that the Iron Warriors underwent when they met Perturabo.

 

It was a good story, and worth examining further here too. :P

 

What about Perturabo and the Iron Warriors? Got more info on their reuniting?

[Aurelius Rex]

No specifics really, mainly mentions that Khârn had seen the changes in the Iron Warriors when they met their Primarch. It was showing the realisation that the War Hounds would change a lot when they met Angron - their whole personality and outlook and not just their name.

 

Hmmm... Khârn was right there, then! ;)

[TheDarker]

I agree with what was said before. I imagine the Terran Space Wolves like ones with... hum... predisposition to long hairs, fangs and drinking, but more organised in a military way. When they met Russ, they found one that was very similar to them... but multiplied with 1000... I think that the main problem will be the fact of considering Fenris as his new home, not Terra. Several things like fur decoration or runes will be "strange" for them, but i think that nearly everyone of them will adapt easily (maybe they will not wear a lot of runes and other fenrisian decorations, but still some of them). Others will have problems to adapt... or will finish like Iacton Qruze (the old Lunar Wolve), "trapped" between two worlds.

 

I think also, that the REAL problem would be the tactics. Anyone raised on Terra will fight on a "similar" way (maybe some like the Space Wolves with a more "feral" style), but when they meet their primarch several of them had to change his style of war dramatically (basically, think on the World Eaters Terrans being a more "organised" legion and then seeing that his war style changes to "kill every enemy untill there is nothing left"). Well... i´m pretty sure some of them will have... "problems"

[Hyperion]

I agree that there would undoubtedly be a process of adaptation for the Terran legionnaires, which some would find easier than others.

 

The White Scars fluff mentions a considerable change when the first Chogorian marines are created - increasing the ferocity of the legion dramatically, which the article then queries as a result of interaction between the geneseed and the genetics of the tribes. The White Scars have a distinctive style of warfare due to their primarch, which the Terrans wouldn't have had originally. Also, the Chogorians expertise in riding horses would not have been shared by the Terrans, so they would not be as skilled on bikes.

 

I picture a scenario where the newly created Chogorian marines try out space marine bikes for the first time, and astonish the Terran bikers with what they can do!

 

This disparity between the Terrans and Chogorians also allows me to justify having some devastator squads in my heresy-era White Scars army!

[Raven Angel]

I thought white Scars could use any squad type as long as they take a transport? Any way I think a the legions would have been very similar in organisation and overall tactics pre primearch. The physical appearans would have bent the first place where things would deveate.

[Wolf Lord Mjolnir]

Hi Doghouse,

 

Visions of Heresy states that there was a lot of respect between the Terran and Fenrisian Space Wolves and that the bonded well.

 

In Wolf at the Door it is mentioned that Bulveye has his beard in the terran style - closely shaven. I think this shows the respect he had for his Terran born brothers that he would adopt part of their customs.

 

Basically, I think the Terran and Fenrisians actually got on pretty well.

 

Mjol

 

ps as a point that interests me I thought I would mention that I believe most if not all Long Fangs during the Heresy would have been Terran! Anyone else agree?

[lothbrok]

i think there would have been many similarties between terran and fenrisian space wolves as far as combat styles but not so much in the legions culture becuase this is most likely a biproduct of the home world not so much a genetic thing. also they wouldnt have fangs or be wulfen becuase those are a product of the cup of wulfen according to the ragnar books.

[Luc O' Luck]

Lothbrok, it helps your sanity if you take everything that Will King has ever written for 40k, and use it as toilet paper. The Canis Helix comes with the Gene Seed, it says so in most other GW fiction. Russ had fangs, fur and such, so one would assume that those Legionairies descended from him would share these features.

[Son Of Khaine]

Here's some food for thought,picked it up from Lexicanum

 

 

A record of the apparent motivation for the actions of those Dark Angels who would become the Fallen exists: the confession of Astelan, once a Dark Angels Chapter Master. This testimony, extracted by Interrogator-Chaplain Boreas, contains the following claims: Astelan himself is supposed to have ordered the attack on the Lion's approaching fleet, with the approval of Luther, because the Dark Angels on Caliban believed that El'Jonson had fallen sway to the powers of Chaos. Astelan claimed that while the Lion had been lost in the woods of Caliban as a child, he had had a brush with Chaos and had never quite lost the taint of darkness from the incident. He pointed out that while El'Jonson had moved through the Warp towards Terra to join the defence of the Imperial Palace, he had moved at what was believed to have been a deliberately slow pace; a pace slow enough to determine who the true winner of the conflict would be before committing his forces. In other words, Astelan believed that El'Jonson would not have hesitated to join Horus if it had seemed that he would have been the ultimate victor in the Heresy. Why else would the Lion, a man renowned for his strategic brilliance and speed of attack, have waited so long before leading troops to Terra? Astelan believed that by attacking his fleet, the Dark Angels stationed on Caliban were doing the work of the Emperor.

 

Astelan further claimed that Luther never fell under the sway of Chaos but was driven by his duty to the Emperor, fearing the traitorous nature of El'Jonson. Also, he revealed that, apparently, the majority of the men who had been garrisoned on Caliban were original members of the Dark Angels, Terrans who had been inducted before the arrival of El'Jonson as Primarch. This existing form of divide may have also contributed to the conflict on Caliban. Finally, he claimed that, in the ensuing battle between the seemingly loyalist Lutheran Angels and the possibly suspect Lionite Angels, Luther attempted to negotiate with the Lion before any more were slain. Refusing to talk, the Lion hastily ordered the bombardment of Caliban and descended to crush the Fallen in combat. Luther then apparently fought the Lion only as a last resort and mortally wounded him only when he had no other choice. The only thing that Astelan could not explain was the Warp-Storm that flung the Fallen far across the Galaxy.2

 

This entire point of view, as told by a member of the Fallen, should be considered suspect at best and complete fabrication at worst; it could simply be a series of malicious lies or just a warped, inaccurate view of the entire incident. Often, those who fall under the sway of Chaos do not even realize that they are serving its ends, except that at the end of 'Angels of Darkness', Boreas asks for a tranmission to be sent to a solitary cell in the rock saying simply: 'You were right'. This cell is believed, by readers, to be that of either Astelan or Luther himself. This, from a loyal Dark Angel throws in to question the loyalty of the Dark Angels, The Fallen and Lion El'Johnson himself.

 

Bold is mine,but this is rather interesting,should I have slapped some spoilers on this or not?

[talos402000]

The information you seek about the Terran Space Wolves is on page 235 of the collected Visions. Basicaly it says although there was alot of comradeship between the Terran and Fenrisian Space Wolves they statyed in their own squads and were not mixed together. It is possible that the Terran Marines retained there original organization while the Fenrisian Marines were organized according to Leman's personal ideas.

[Nethoras]

Well the legions were crafted from the genes of the primarchs themselves, and had always carried the traits of their primarch. Obviously not to the same extent as after discovering their primarch and home worlds, but every space marine was genetically crafted to be a son to their primarch.

I highly doubt any astartes had much trouble adapting to their primarchs disposition simply because of a natural similiarites, and any doubt beyond that would be quashed with fanatical fraternal instincts and idealogy.

 

unno if thats worded horribly