DavidKits Posted June 13, 2009 Share Posted June 13, 2009 Hey there every one *bows in respect* I was going over the codex and lately I have wanted to work out and make a much much more themed work on my Salamanders. I got Vulken(my own make), I got the redeemer, and i have a healthy level of flamers and melta weapons if you can call it healthy to your opinion. so when i looked up transports I remembered the forge world Melta razorback which i personally always liked the idea but the Heavy flamer one is at a loss to me. I have always had 2 problems that roll to my mind on how to use the damn thing or how properly. 1. how would you get it across the field without being picked off before it makes it even half way. 2. How would you use its gun properly. the first one i could only come up with the conclusion the only way to do it is to literally play tailgate with a Land Raider to give it a Massive human... um... metal body shield? I suppose. and I could think that hiding behind a Land Raider Redeemer when a horde of Orks or Nids come a running and hitting them with both tanks would be sick to basic infantry. but anywho. the second point is what gets me the most. for the rules for the template on the razorback if done like this contradict(sp) one another. Ie. for a tank you much ALWAYS measure or place template at the barrel of the gun. but for template weapons they are forbidden(sp) to touch a friendly model which would include the tank! and the only seeming way to get the shot off without hitting the tank in theory would be to expose the rear armor and shoot off its butt. anyway out there of the vet players who could give me a hand with this. I mean I love the idea of a gaint flamer thrower on a tank but right now from the looks of things the vehicle seems to be a complete waste of time, money, and points to try and field unless there is a way to make it effective. cheers, hope to hear soon. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/170977-razorback-with-tl-heavy-flamers/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
wolf2.3 Posted June 13, 2009 Share Posted June 13, 2009 I would personally take a leaf out of the the battle sisters book and mount the flamer on the front (maybe use the pintle mount). This way you can shoot over the front but its your choice. you could even convert an immolator... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/170977-razorback-with-tl-heavy-flamers/#findComment-2020773 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Koremu Posted June 13, 2009 Share Posted June 13, 2009 The tanks turret is too high to be hit by its own template. And anyone who disputes that deserves a slap in the face before you pack away all your models and never ever speak to them ever again. As for the question, the HF-Razorback makes an excellent unit to discourage assault. Squat it behind some cover in an inaccessable location (the 'dozer blade may help here) near to where you are expecting an assault. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/170977-razorback-with-tl-heavy-flamers/#findComment-2020802 Share on other sites More sharing options...
lord gunthar Posted June 13, 2009 Share Posted June 13, 2009 if you can read the new ig codex you would know that ig have a tank that has a flamer weapon turret i think its called a hellhound? any way it fires the flamer template 6 inches or something and then you place the big end further away from the tank than the little end and then you roll to wound as normal you could try using that? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/170977-razorback-with-tl-heavy-flamers/#findComment-2020945 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryjak Posted June 13, 2009 Share Posted June 13, 2009 The main thing to remember is that a Razorback is a transport... that just happens to have a heavy weapon. Unfortunately, unless it's the standard Heavy Bolter, it's a ridiculously EXPENSIVE heavy weapon. Ideally, the way to use the Heavy Flamer Razorback would be something along the lines of: 1) Move 12" and pop smoke 2) Following turn, squad disembarks to shoot & assault some enemy unit, allowing the Razorback to move 6" and use that Heavy Flamer on the same unit. On the plus side, since you have Vulcan, just about any infantry you hit with that template will take a wound. As for getting close enough to employ it, you'll either need to hide it behind another vehicle, or give your opponent much more threatening targets to shoot at, like an Ironclad Dreadnought arriving via drop-pod, or a whole lot more vehicles. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/170977-razorback-with-tl-heavy-flamers/#findComment-2020988 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Koremu Posted June 13, 2009 Share Posted June 13, 2009 @Ryjak: The Heavy Flamer on the Razorback is already Twin Linked, so the presence of Vulkan does exactly nothing for the Razorback. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/170977-razorback-with-tl-heavy-flamers/#findComment-2021006 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryjak Posted June 13, 2009 Share Posted June 13, 2009 Oh, right... *smacks forehead* I figured Vulcan was why Davidkits was looking at using them. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/170977-razorback-with-tl-heavy-flamers/#findComment-2021053 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Koremu Posted June 13, 2009 Share Posted June 13, 2009 I think that's a Sallies fluff reason. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/170977-razorback-with-tl-heavy-flamers/#findComment-2021060 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DavidKits Posted June 14, 2009 Author Share Posted June 14, 2009 aye the reason or te vehicle is because of the Fluff behind it. these are all interesting things toponder and thank you. though as nice as that idea is Lord Gunther, i don't think it possible to measure out the 12 inchs like the hellhound as the tank doesn't say you can in its write up. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/170977-razorback-with-tl-heavy-flamers/#findComment-2021176 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Banville Posted June 15, 2009 Share Posted June 15, 2009 Yep, Lord Gunthar is mixing up the Hell Hound's special cannon with the basic twin-linked Heavy Flamer on the Razorback. THe only thing you can do is swivel the turret and angle the template from it so that it gives good coverage across the squad you're aiming at. Don't worry about anyone spouting nonsense about it damaging itself. It doesn't, full stop. I really don't think they'd be much use though. They'll blown to smithereens that close to anything with meltas or any sort of grenades. Even rapid firing Tau Firewarrios will destroy it. Fluff is cool and all but sometimes you just have to be practical. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/170977-razorback-with-tl-heavy-flamers/#findComment-2022536 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryjak Posted June 15, 2009 Share Posted June 15, 2009 Fluff is cool and all but sometimes you just have to be practical. At the same time, if you want to make it work, you will eventually find a way that works for you. I'd expect a steep learning curve, though. From my experience, the easiest way to keep Razorbacks alive is to hide them behind other vehicles (which they can usually shoot over with no penalty) or give your opponent more tempting/threatening targets to destroy. I've found Vindicator tanks and Land Raiders fit this bill pretty well. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/170977-razorback-with-tl-heavy-flamers/#findComment-2022738 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sternguard sergeant McColl Posted June 16, 2009 Share Posted June 16, 2009 The standard HB razor would be fluffy for sallies remember their disposition for devastators. I've always thought of sallies as an army that makes extreme use of almost all heavy weapons, but heat based ones in particular. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/170977-razorback-with-tl-heavy-flamers/#findComment-2022890 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DavidKits Posted June 19, 2009 Author Share Posted June 19, 2009 hmmm more ideas to ponder over *rubs chin* i can see hiding it behind a vinnie for a razorback and it shooting over it with little trouble but doesn't your oppoent still get a cover save for shooting through your own unit? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/170977-razorback-with-tl-heavy-flamers/#findComment-2025983 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Mage Posted June 19, 2009 Share Posted June 19, 2009 Its a fun option, the question is really- do you have enough long range firepower in your army already? If yes, continue on. If no, ask yourself- Am I missing LR anti-tank or anti infantry firepower? If antitank- considers a TLLC or a TLPG+LC If anti-infantry- consider keeping the standard razorback instead, or taking a rhino with two stormbolters. Now assuming you have the LR options covered a HF can be alot of fun. Its rather good in conjunction with a nice counter-assault unit, like footslogging Veterans, either sterngaurd of more likely Vangaurd. If its the former just make sure your seargent has a powerfist and if its vangaurd just make sure a couple of those guys have stormshields to deal with PWs and the like. Indeed, a unit of vangaurd in a HF razorback with 4xStormshield, 6xLightningclaw, a thunderhammer and a powerfist will run you around 390pts and can take on a 750-850 Nobz Biker squad. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/170977-razorback-with-tl-heavy-flamers/#findComment-2026119 Share on other sites More sharing options...
waaanial00 Posted June 19, 2009 Share Posted June 19, 2009 An outflanking TL Flamer Razorback (a la Khan or Sicarus) with a tactical squad (flamer and combi Flamer springs to mind) is going to make an absolute mess of a unit which is too close to the edge. However if you are playing Sallies then just spam armour so that your opponent doesnt have to take the easy option of just targeting this transport. Smoke when you can and when you cant try to block line of sight as much as possible. I think this configuration is a great one for Cities of Death where cover is rife and long range doesnt really count for much. Wan Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/170977-razorback-with-tl-heavy-flamers/#findComment-2026149 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryjak Posted June 19, 2009 Share Posted June 19, 2009 hmmm more ideas to ponder over *rubs chin* i can see hiding it behind a vinnie for a razorback and it shooting over it with little trouble but doesn't your oppoent still get a cover save for shooting through your own unit? Nope, because it's true LOS... You're shooting OVER the Vindicator tank, not through it. As long as your target is far enough away, the elevated Razorback turrent will have unobstructed LOS. This is the same reason Orks can shoot OVER Gretchin without granting a cover save. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/170977-razorback-with-tl-heavy-flamers/#findComment-2026331 Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShinyRhino Posted June 19, 2009 Share Posted June 19, 2009 The TLOS issue isn't really a factor when firing the heavy flamer over the Vindicator. Template weapons never allow a cover save. I had a guy tell me once that I couldn't fire a flamer out of the firing points of my Rhino. I looked at him like he had three heads, pointed out that the Razor can be armed with a Heavy Flamer. He argued that it was a different situation. The Razor was one unit firing its flamer over itself. A Marine firing a flamer out of a fire point was hitting his own unit, and was not allowed to do that. That being said, I'm not sure you're allowed to fire a flamer weapon over your own Vindicator. I believe there's a line in the BRB that states you cannot place a template weapon over your own units voluntarily. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/170977-razorback-with-tl-heavy-flamers/#findComment-2026542 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryjak Posted June 19, 2009 Share Posted June 19, 2009 Sorry, I was refering to firing anything BUT a flamer weapon over another vehicle, like a Lascannon or Heavy Bolter... While you could "accidently" hit your own unit with a flamer weapon, it's not too hard to move your stuff in a way to completely avoid that slippery slope. As for "you can't a shoot a flame weapon out of a fire-point", there's nothing in the rules to back this. If someone insists on this mid-game, just concede a loss and find a more sensible person to play with. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/170977-razorback-with-tl-heavy-flamers/#findComment-2026717 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Race Bannon Posted June 20, 2009 Share Posted June 20, 2009 he tmplate from a tak issue has bn replayed often in the Official Rules forum. This is for Tactics, and on that subject Grey Mage hit the nail on the head: look at your army composition to help you with this specifi unit. I am seeing where takin Vulkan is a disadvantage: you feel his Chapter Tactis are being wasted if thisRazorback is not equipped with a flame or melta weapon. Put that aside. Use the HF if it works for your army. This will require testing it out - and often. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/170977-razorback-with-tl-heavy-flamers/#findComment-2027075 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DavidKits Posted June 24, 2009 Author Share Posted June 24, 2009 thanks, i don't believe its a waste to not take it because i have Vulken i just want to try and make my army more 'fluffy' i guess is a way to put it. oh well ;) i will have to playtest some more with this. so far i can only really seeing 2 maybe 3 armies this kinda vehicle maybe any use against. if it lives long enough. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/170977-razorback-with-tl-heavy-flamers/#findComment-2029988 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vel'Cona Posted June 24, 2009 Share Posted June 24, 2009 For fluffyness you can't beat this setup of RB. For effectiveness, if you want want mobile HF a Landspeeder will get that job done far better. I rarely upgrade the standard RB, as the extra points generally do not equal more casualties over the tried and true TL HB RB. In terms of the Lascannon configs, I generally go with the argument that LC are not the tankbusting weapons they once were, and leave that job to my Meltas. Basically, Templates on tanks are iffy at best, hence why I'm still not a fan of the Redeemer, even as a Salamander captain myself. Vive la Crusader! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/170977-razorback-with-tl-heavy-flamers/#findComment-2030430 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DavidKits Posted July 29, 2009 Author Share Posted July 29, 2009 had an idea everyone. on hopefully how to make this Razorback varient work... it doesn't totally fit for a Salamanders theme but its one thought on a use. how well would this vehicle due if it carried a small unit of sterguard with combi-flamers and flank marched. maye combi melta's instead this the vehicle can hopefully appear in enemy lines and unless a deadly payload and many flame template on one unit? thoughts? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/170977-razorback-with-tl-heavy-flamers/#findComment-2063949 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Koremu Posted July 29, 2009 Share Posted July 29, 2009 had an idea everyone. on hopefully how to make this Razorback varient work... it doesn't totally fit for a Salamanders theme but its one thought on a use. how well would this vehicle due if it carried a small unit of sterguard with combi-flamers and flank marched. maye combi melta's instead this the vehicle can hopefully appear in enemy lines and unless a deadly payload and many flame template on one unit? thoughts? How do you plan on getting the unit to Flank March? Neither the tank nor the squad have scout. You can do it with Tactical Marines and Sicarius, but I don't see how you'd do it with Sternguard. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/170977-razorback-with-tl-heavy-flamers/#findComment-2063969 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Everblight Posted July 29, 2009 Share Posted July 29, 2009 Under Khan don't dedicated Transports get the option to outflank?? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/170977-razorback-with-tl-heavy-flamers/#findComment-2063971 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Koremu Posted July 29, 2009 Share Posted July 29, 2009 Under Khan don't dedicated Transports get the option to outflank?? Sure, but you can't have that and Vulkanised Flamers and Meltas Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/170977-razorback-with-tl-heavy-flamers/#findComment-2063973 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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