Hfran Morkai Posted June 16, 2009 Share Posted June 16, 2009 For apoc I'm going to run an armoured spearhead for my termie squad of doom and two blood claw packs. The only problem is what to run. I have a crusader for my termie squad but what for the blood claws? I know the crusader has more space so more blood claws (yay!) but the land raider has some decent anti-tank firepower. However melta is the way forward and to that end I'll list the anti-tank units I'll have below so you can help me make my mind up: 2 Predator annihilators several 3 man multi-melta attack bikes Long Fang pack with lascannons Several dreads with multi-meltas Allied Shadowsword (Awesome!) So what do you think brothers? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/171212-armoured-spearhead-composition/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Mage Posted June 16, 2009 Share Posted June 16, 2009 I think you should take that shadowsword and take the option to increase it to BS 4. ;). Then its marine :cuss. But are you asking if you should get another crusader or normal LR for your BC squad? Or something else? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/171212-armoured-spearhead-composition/#findComment-2023117 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryzouken Posted June 16, 2009 Share Posted June 16, 2009 Crusader for Termies (to fit more in) and 2 Basic pattern for long range anti tank/MC fire. Accept no substitutes (that ratio's done me damn proud). At higher point values, grab a basic Raider as a Dedicated transport for the Termies (limiting their unit size) to fit a 4th Raider in, then a 5th into an Elite slot by allying in an Inquisitor with retinue. Drown them in Av 14. Drown them. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/171212-armoured-spearhead-composition/#findComment-2023182 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vassakov Posted June 16, 2009 Share Posted June 16, 2009 I would certainly echo Ryzouken in Raider Spam. It can be tough to deal with, even in Apocalypse and with the Shadowsword scaring any enemy Superheavies, chances are the Assault Group in the Raiders can launch a T2 charge, and begin the process of dismembering the enemy forces whilst the Raiders block fire lanes, kill stuff, Tank Shock off objectives and generally give the enemy a headache. To back the Spearhead up, I find Rhinos and Razorbacks running interference, and preferably loaded with Grey Hunters for the "jump out and double tap" moments - again, it creates a lot of targets for AT weapons, and Grey Hunters will probably be overlooked - at the enemies expense. Finally, 3+ Dreadnoughts in Pods plus a Pack or 2 of Wolf Scouts to land smack bang in the enemy lines, further dilute AT fire and make a nuisance out of themselves. Multi Meltas, Assault Cannons and Heavy Flamers are a must, Ironclads are even better for this sort of job. Pick a target, nuke it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/171212-armoured-spearhead-composition/#findComment-2023229 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warhorse47 Posted June 16, 2009 Share Posted June 16, 2009 Shadowsword, a crusader to either side and a Leman Russ Exterminator. Your opponent is gonna have a hard time dealing with that kind of force. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/171212-armoured-spearhead-composition/#findComment-2023828 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hfran Morkai Posted June 17, 2009 Author Share Posted June 17, 2009 Well I'm taking the armoured spearhead because for 50 points it allows me to ignore shaken results and with extra armour I can also ignore stunned results, which makes a lot of tactical sense. I think I'll run 3 crusaders with my terminator squad and two large blood claw squads and two normal Land Raiders with Grey Hunters to consolidate onto the objective once the claws and termies have done their work. Oh yeah, I've got a couple of Baneblades in the making as well. It's for my allied "S.W.A.T force! (Can't be bothered to paint details so sprayed black, some basic work and S.W.A.T written on the side!) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/171212-armoured-spearhead-composition/#findComment-2024134 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Torin Posted June 17, 2009 Share Posted June 17, 2009 well mikal you could arm you BC with MB right.. making them great tank hunter.. take 4drop podx 10BC with melta bombs n a meltagun . they are cheap n effective. If you have more BC & drop pod the better. Use this ability with smoke screen.. one of those apoc stratigic cards that prevent enemy from seeing through the smoke. Drop them behind the smoke screen then charge forward the turn after. Otherwise just drop them inbetween enemy tank and let them take the bait while your armor moves forward. Drop a few dred while you are at it. bare in mind that your BC can multi charge.. would be nice to see 10 BC using their MB on 2 enemy tanks right. ohhh they can take down a titan too... 10MB... should not be a problem, the titan cant use void shields. cheers Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/171212-armoured-spearhead-composition/#findComment-2024166 Share on other sites More sharing options...
dragon950 Posted June 17, 2009 Share Posted June 17, 2009 Quick question, can bloodclaws even ride in a land raider? It says that they can only ride in a rhino because they they are not senior units. If so then the only problem that I see is that only one terminator squad is going to ride up. If anything put the grey hunters into rhinos and save the regular land raiders for other assualt troops Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/171212-armoured-spearhead-composition/#findComment-2024169 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vlk Posted June 17, 2009 Share Posted June 17, 2009 I believe they can, they just probably aren't allowed to take it as their dedicated transport. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/171212-armoured-spearhead-composition/#findComment-2024218 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hfran Morkai Posted June 17, 2009 Author Share Posted June 17, 2009 Yeah in apocalypse I just take them as heavy support choices, there's no force organisation chart! With the drop pod idea, I like it, but I'm not a big fan of the drop pods as they are an awkward size. However I'll be dropping in several terminator squads armed with chainfists and CMLs. My claws will have meltabombs anyway to deal with any armour. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/171212-armoured-spearhead-composition/#findComment-2024225 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Mage Posted June 17, 2009 Share Posted June 17, 2009 Quick question, can bloodclaws even ride in a land raider? It says that they can only ride in a rhino because they they are not senior units. If so then the only problem that I see is that only one terminator squad is going to ride up. If anything put the grey hunters into rhinos and save the regular land raiders for other assualt troops They are only allowed to purchase a rhino as a dedicated transport because of their status- that is all that is usually appropriated for them. Its also partially because their minimum unit size is so large and the LRC was not yet invented at that point in 3rd edition- and land raiders only held 10 models. You can put any model in a landraider you want. If you choose a landraider as a dedicated transport for wolf gaurd or Long Fangs then only that unit can be deployed in the transport, but any unit can go into it later- wich is the norm for dedicated transports. Now, SWs do have one and only one unit that has a different rule- Bloodclaws. A Bloodclaw units rhino can only be used by the bloodclaw unit as they have a special rule for transports in their boxes under headstrong and beserk charge. So if your only taking a couple rhinos in your army its probly best to take them for your Grey Hunters, as theyll be more adaptable then. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/171212-armoured-spearhead-composition/#findComment-2024245 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Torin Posted June 17, 2009 Share Posted June 17, 2009 Now, SWs do have one and only one unit that has a different rule- Bloodclaws. A Bloodclaw units rhino can only be used by the bloodclaw unit as they have a special rule for transports in their boxes under headstrong and beserk charge. So if your only taking a couple rhinos in your army its probly best to take them for your Grey Hunters, as theyll be more adaptable then. are you sure of that grey mage.. i was unaware of that. If it is so.. thks for the update. cheers. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/171212-armoured-spearhead-composition/#findComment-2024272 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vassakov Posted June 17, 2009 Share Posted June 17, 2009 Grey Mage is correct - our Codex repeats verbatim the passage from 3rd Ed, about dedicated transports. This has since been removed from the Core Ruleset, but as Codex > Rulebook, we're stuck with it. So, Rhinos/Razorbacks for Grey Hunters, Heavy Support Crusaders for the Blood Claws. Whilst this not be particularly fluffy, it works very well. And it's several Planets above the Lash Prince/Plague Marines/Oblits combos or the "Vulkan-in-Smurf-Tshirts" lists we can sometimes see. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/171212-armoured-spearhead-composition/#findComment-2024278 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolf Guard Nostromo Posted June 17, 2009 Share Posted June 17, 2009 IMHO, echo on the 2 Godhammer and 1 crusader spearhead - I admit I haven't used another combo, but my spearhead of two TLL wolf raiders and Grey Knight crusader have done me more than proud in all their uses... plenty of AT and some spray and pray from the crusader seems a nice balance. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/171212-armoured-spearhead-composition/#findComment-2024456 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hfran Morkai Posted June 17, 2009 Author Share Posted June 17, 2009 Does anyhere know the transport capacity of the Promethus? Because I think it would be nice to field something slightly more unusual, however I'd only take one so it would have to be for my termies and I have a bad feeling 7 termies plus two PA guys won't fit in it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/171212-armoured-spearhead-composition/#findComment-2024581 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Mage Posted June 17, 2009 Share Posted June 17, 2009 Its 12 man, just like a standard landraider- you can find more details in the Imperial Armor Update wich is downloadable at the forgeworld website. @Torin: Yeah Im sure. If you go to your troops section underneath the bloodclaws in the same inset box as beserk charge theres a thing about transports "not providing a taxi service to the entire army". However its a bloodclaw special rule and only affects them wich is kind of odd... but if you look it over its in the same kind of box as say OBEL is for the wolf scouts- so if they want to argue it show them that, or Old and Wise, and ask if they thing you should be able to slap that onto whatever unit you want eh? It sucks a bit, but better to know ahead of time then to get hit with it mid-tournament. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/171212-armoured-spearhead-composition/#findComment-2024603 Share on other sites More sharing options...
WG Vrox Posted June 17, 2009 Share Posted June 17, 2009 I also echo the 2 God Hammer LRs with either a Crusader or Redemer in front, depending on what your facing "if you know ahead of time". Also don't forget to put the Rune Priest in there somewhere casting SC on the lead tank. 50/50 chance of negating every hit is huge in Apoc games. WG Vrox Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/171212-armoured-spearhead-composition/#findComment-2024618 Share on other sites More sharing options...
LPetersson Posted June 17, 2009 Share Posted June 17, 2009 I also echo the 2 God Hammer LRs with either a Crusader or Redemer in front, depending on what your facing "if you know ahead of time". Also don't forget to put the Rune Priest in there somewhere casting SC on the lead tank. 50/50 chance of negating every hit is huge in Apoc games. WG Vrox 50/50? In my codex it states that SC only gives 5+ coversave... Codex > Rulebook? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/171212-armoured-spearhead-composition/#findComment-2024649 Share on other sites More sharing options...
WG Vrox Posted June 17, 2009 Share Posted June 17, 2009 50/50? In my codex it states that SC only gives 5+ coversave...Codex > Rulebook? The FAQ mentiones all vehicals with SC cast on it are considered obscured. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/171212-armoured-spearhead-composition/#findComment-2024749 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryzouken Posted June 17, 2009 Share Posted June 17, 2009 And in fact, SC itself mentions this as well, if memory serves. All obscurement is 4+ cover (for vehicles) with a 3+ cover gained if the facing the firer is aiming at cannot be seen at all (if the firer can still see a portion of the tank. As an example, consider the elevated firer shooting at a Land Raider that's flush up against another Land Raider. The top of the vehicle can be seen, though the firer is in the front/side/rear arc, thus the shot may be taken, granting a 3+ cover. There is contention about the transport rules and how they pertain to Blood Claws vs. the rest of the list. If you're running a non apoc game and you're grabbing dedicated land raiders, it's probably best to avoid the issue entirely. You can still fit 40 basic troopers (10 Grey Hunters and 30 Blood Claws) in the three Raiders your HS slots allow for (1 of any pattern, two Crusaders in this case). I <3 Land Raiders... 5th made them so much better than they were in 4th... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/171212-armoured-spearhead-composition/#findComment-2024792 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warpstone Posted June 18, 2009 Share Posted June 18, 2009 For the dedicated transport rules, yeah you would be stuck if you took dedicated transports for the Blood Claws and Grey Hunters, but you'll be able to avoid this by leaving these units transportless but when it comes to set up and reserves, you will be able to put them in these empty landraiders how thoughtful of the Wolf Lord. Under 5th the only advantage dedicated transports give you is that the transport does not use up a organisation slot for normal games. Also units with dedicated transports are the only ones that can start in it if coming from reserves. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/171212-armoured-spearhead-composition/#findComment-2024998 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hfran Morkai Posted June 18, 2009 Author Share Posted June 18, 2009 Cheers Grey Mage! Are we allowed to take the Promethus then? Because it says it is a transport for Space Marine Command squad, an Honour Guard squad, a Terminator squad or Terminator Assault squad. I assume if I put wolf guard termies in there it should be fine? Because looking at my terminators they cost more than a Baneblade! I'm thinking of dropping a couple of terminators and having Ragnar, Rune Priest in PA, 3 lightning claw termies and two TH/SS termies. I think that squad is killy enough when jumping out of a promethus. If we are allowed to take the Protmethus then this will be my formation: Promethus with Lord 2 Crusaders with Blood Claws 2 Standard Land Raiders with Grey Hunters. The only problem is that it might be difficult putting them all within 6 inches of the command tank. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/171212-armoured-spearhead-composition/#findComment-2025082 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryzouken Posted June 18, 2009 Share Posted June 18, 2009 Apoc means check with your opponents. I'd let you use the Promethius, others may not. Not too big a stretch though, so present it to your opponents to see. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/171212-armoured-spearhead-composition/#findComment-2025121 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Mage Posted June 18, 2009 Share Posted June 18, 2009 Cheers Grey Mage! Are we allowed to take the Promethus then? Because it says it is a transport for Space Marine Command squad, an Honour Guard squad, a Terminator squad or Terminator Assault squad. I assume if I put wolf guard termies in there it should be fine? Because looking at my terminators they cost more than a Baneblade! I'm thinking of dropping a couple of terminators and having Ragnar, Rune Priest in PA, 3 lightning claw termies and two TH/SS termies. I think that squad is killy enough when jumping out of a promethus. If we are allowed to take the Protmethus then this will be my formation: Promethus with Lord 2 Crusaders with Blood Claws 2 Standard Land Raiders with Grey Hunters. The only problem is that it might be difficult putting them all within 6 inches of the command tank. Imperial Armor, indeed all of forgeworld is with opponents permission only. One reason why I dont have a Promethius or a Helios myself. If your opponent will even let you take them then theyd certainly let you ride in them or take them as a transport for the equal units- Honor Gaurd etc = WGBG. Though personally if your using it as a transport for Termies to kill things Id rather take a Crusader, or a drop pod. The former carries more, the latter is faster :). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/171212-armoured-spearhead-composition/#findComment-2025142 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hfran Morkai Posted June 18, 2009 Author Share Posted June 18, 2009 I swear I read in the rule book that anyone can take forge world models without the other players consent, I'll have a look. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/171212-armoured-spearhead-composition/#findComment-2025181 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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