Master Commander Ajax Posted June 16, 2009 Share Posted June 16, 2009 Back in fourth edition the traits rule allowed us to equip our tactical squads with bolt pistols and chainswords. Now there is an option to have your assault squads without jump packs. Fluff wise this suits my army very well but is it much use for serious play? I intend to use two such squads with two flamers each and have the army lead by Vulkan. Do you guys think this could work? p.s. I know that there was a similar topic posted not long ago but thought it strayed to much from the OP's original subject and could not find the issue being discussed anywhere else. -Ajax Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Banville Posted June 16, 2009 Share Posted June 16, 2009 You're going to need at least one Raider so you can move and assault out of or you'll get cut to pieces by ranged fire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Master Commander Ajax Posted June 16, 2009 Author Share Posted June 16, 2009 forgot to mention that I was intending on using drop pods. They'd be in the last two out of the five drop pods in my army. Would a land raider still be a better option? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Banville Posted June 16, 2009 Share Posted June 16, 2009 Well you can't assault out of Drop Pods so Id honestly say a LR is much better in my opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Koremu Posted June 16, 2009 Share Posted June 16, 2009 Assault Squad with 2 Flamers in a Rhino wih a 'dozer blade. Tank Shock squads to force them to bunch up (remember tank shocked units do still have to maintain unit coherency), and then cover them in promethium :P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Banville Posted June 16, 2009 Share Posted June 16, 2009 Interesting...I find your ideas intriguing and would like to subscribe to your newsletter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tastytaste Posted June 16, 2009 Share Posted June 16, 2009 Only problem with the tank shocking idea is you cannot disembark and assault after tank shocking in rhino. That is why I think everyone else has it right take a LR if you are going to try the flightless marines. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Koremu Posted June 16, 2009 Share Posted June 16, 2009 Only problem with the tank shocking idea is you cannot disembark and assault after tank shocking in rhino. That is why I think everyone else has it right take a LR if you are going to try the flightless marines. But equally it's not so easy for the assault squad to get attacked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Master Commander Ajax Posted June 16, 2009 Author Share Posted June 16, 2009 Thanks for the replies so far. The rhinos seem like a good idea. My reservations about putting them in a Landraider are that I would need one for each assault squad and would much sooner load them up with thunder hammer terminators. Do you guys think that wingless assault squads can take the place of a tactical squad? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Banville Posted June 16, 2009 Share Posted June 16, 2009 Depends what you use them for. They're not Troops though and you need at least two tacticals/scouts first. Overall I'd have to say that tacticals are much more flexible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brightguy Posted June 16, 2009 Share Posted June 16, 2009 I have to agree with this. I think they were viable in a Rhino in smaller games in prior editions. Now that they're not scoring, you really can't take them in a <750 pt. game. I think that's where they used to shine due to a general lack of other tough cc troops. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Koremu Posted June 16, 2009 Share Posted June 16, 2009 Yeah, it's a shame that Jump Pack Captains don't make them scoring. C'est La Vie. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Master Commander Ajax Posted June 16, 2009 Author Share Posted June 16, 2009 The SM codex says that when they remove their jump packs they become infantry, I thought that this also made them scoring units? damn. Well thats ruined my night lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marek Grimfang Posted June 17, 2009 Share Posted June 17, 2009 Troops and Infantry are two different things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foster Posted June 17, 2009 Share Posted June 17, 2009 I have a question about disembarking from a vehicle that’s just performed a Tank Shock. I've read that a vehicle can still shoot depending if it moved slow enough when performing Tank Shock, but I haven't spotted a rule about not being able to disembark, well not under the Tank Shock page. Can someone please clear this up for me? Would make a great manoeuvre for Tank Shocking Imperial Guard troops away from their Tanks, then disembarking some melta's to take their tank down without an annoying cover save. It would be nice to know if I can do that when the opportunity arises. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Interrogator Stobz Posted June 17, 2009 Share Posted June 17, 2009 Don't forget the two special weapons out the top hatch, take your licks in his turn,(maybe lose the Rhino) assault your next turn for fun and profit. L3e Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Koremu Posted June 17, 2009 Share Posted June 17, 2009 I have a question about disembarking from a vehicle that’s just performed a Tank Shock. I've read that a vehicle can still shoot depending if it moved slow enough when performing Tank Shock, but I haven't spotted a rule about not being able to disembark, well not under the Tank Shock page. Can someone please clear this up for me? Would make a great manoeuvre for Tank Shocking Imperial Guard troops away from their Tanks, then disembarking some melta's to take their tank down without an annoying cover save. It would be nice to know if I can do that when the opportunity arises. There's no restriction about dismounting from a vehicle after it tank shocks, but of course if you do dismount after the tank has moved you can't assault (as per the Transport Vehicle rules). However, I wonder if you are using the vehicle cover rules properly. It's pretty dfficult to get a cover save for a Leman Russ from mere Infantry being in the way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
X-Slash-X Posted June 17, 2009 Share Posted June 17, 2009 While I have no experience with Pack-less Assault Squads, I think the Rhino or Drop Pod is still the better choice, despite the Land Raider support by most. The reason being that when the squad loses it's Jump-Packs, it takes the Rhino/Drop Pod instead. Seems a waste of a transport if you take a Land Raider instead. Although you could use the Pod/Rhino for another squad... On another note, from what I can tell, you're still paying for the Packs, and converting them into a transport. This option is available no matter what size the squad is. Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't that mean that the Pod or Rhino increases in price as you add more marines? I know you're not paying directly for it, but surely this hasn't been thought out properly. The most cost effective option would therefore be a 5 man squad. Seems a bit silly to me. X-Slash-X Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waaanial00 Posted June 17, 2009 Share Posted June 17, 2009 Last night I played a game with counts as Shrike and in that game I used a 5 man Assault without Jump Packs in a Rhino. I was surprised to find that they are actually quite good if used well. They did have a little extra in terms of having fleet but you can still work around that. How you might ask well... Drive in transport towards the enemy, pop smoke. Take the hits and hope that the if the enemy kills your transport you dont get entangled. Disembark from static Rhino and move then charge. You have a 14" range of assault (2" disembark, 6" move and 6" assault). In this way you dont really need the Landraider because even if the enemy kills your rhino, as long as they are not moving swiftly away from you you will be fine. I was surprised to find that they attracted less shots than my Jump Pack marines and ultimately killed much more. These guys are not ideally suited to Drop pods though because what they gain in being in your face they lose in protection. Much better to put them behind an armoured hull. As I stated earlier adding them to a Shrike army actually makes them a little better though Jump Pack marines get more of a boost they still suffer from Marines in the open problems. Think of it another way, Khorne Berserkers manage to be good in a rhino and dont complain about the lack of charge from it. Wan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Koremu Posted June 17, 2009 Share Posted June 17, 2009 Khorne Berserkers are a very good analogue. Both Rhino mounted units with great ability to take down Light Infantry, but lacking the ability to crack MEQ rapidly Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foster Posted June 17, 2009 Share Posted June 17, 2009 I have a question about disembarking from a vehicle that’s just performed a Tank Shock. I've read that a vehicle can still shoot depending if it moved slow enough when performing Tank Shock, but I haven't spotted a rule about not being able to disembark, well not under the Tank Shock page. Can someone please clear this up for me? Would make a great manoeuvre for Tank Shocking Imperial Guard troops away from their Tanks, then disembarking some melta's to take their tank down without an annoying cover save. It would be nice to know if I can do that when the opportunity arises. There's no restriction about dismounting from a vehicle after it tank shocks, but of course if you do dismount after the tank has moved you can't assault (as per the Transport Vehicle rules). However, I wonder if you are using the vehicle cover rules properly. It's pretty dfficult to get a cover save for a Leman Russ from mere Infantry being in the way. I hope they aren't using the rules properly, considering all they had in front of them were a mere 12 man Imperial Guard Squad. But still as long as the vehicle is covered partially they recieve a 4+ save. The only way I could negate their save is to use a monolith and have an obstructed view looking down at the tank. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gornall Posted June 18, 2009 Share Posted June 18, 2009 I have a question about disembarking from a vehicle that’s just performed a Tank Shock. I've read that a vehicle can still shoot depending if it moved slow enough when performing Tank Shock, but I haven't spotted a rule about not being able to disembark, well not under the Tank Shock page. Can someone please clear this up for me? Would make a great manoeuvre for Tank Shocking Imperial Guard troops away from their Tanks, then disembarking some melta's to take their tank down without an annoying cover save. It would be nice to know if I can do that when the opportunity arises. There's no restriction about dismounting from a vehicle after it tank shocks, but of course if you do dismount after the tank has moved you can't assault (as per the Transport Vehicle rules). However, I wonder if you are using the vehicle cover rules properly. It's pretty dfficult to get a cover save for a Leman Russ from mere Infantry being in the way. I hope they aren't using the rules properly, considering all they had in front of them were a mere 12 man Imperial Guard Squad. But still as long as the vehicle is covered partially they recieve a 4+ save. The only way I could negate their save is to use a monolith and have an obstructed view looking down at the tank. It has to be 50% or more covered... something which IG guys really can't do for a LR. The rule of thumb my FLGS uses is regular bases provide cover for infantry while Termy bases "can" provide cover for MCs and vehicles (still going off the 50% rule). As for the main topic, the only time I've really found Assault Marines to be that useful without packs is in the 750 points or below bracket (where every point counts), simply because it allows you an extra cheap Rhino. If you factor in that you were going to take a Rhino anyway, then it works out to be like 13-15 points a model (depending on how many you take), which isn't too bad for SM. I have a 750 point list that uses Cassius (another great buy) with them and they wreck shop. It's worth mentioning that if you do plan on assaulting out of the Rhino, a Chappy provides fearless, preventing you from getting pinned/entangled by the Rhino getting popped. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShinyRhino Posted June 18, 2009 Share Posted June 18, 2009 I have a 750 point list that uses Cassius (another great buy) with them and they wreck shop. It's worth mentioning that if you do plan on assaulting out of the Rhino, a Chappy provides fearless, preventing you from getting pinned/entangled by the Rhino getting popped. That's flippin' brilliant! A cheap, amatuer assault unit that doesn't have to worry too much about casualties in CC. I like it. I like it double because it has Cassius. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kronk Posted June 19, 2009 Share Posted June 19, 2009 Drive in transport towards the enemy, pop smoke. Take the hits and hope that the if the enemy kills your transport you dont get entangled. Disembark from static Rhino and move then charge. You have a 14" range of assault (2" disembark, 6" move and 6" assault). Everyone wants to be Black Templars. :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Br.Pat Posted June 19, 2009 Share Posted June 19, 2009 I don't have the codex nearby, but if I'm not mistaken Vanguard Veterans without jumpacks are only slightly more expensive than Assault Squads, they also have +1 base attack and access to more deadly equipment. If I had the points I would go for them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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