scout, combat squad and land speeder storm...

[det]

Hi there.

 

So the question is this:

 

10 man scout squad, say sgt with combiflamer and one HBin the squad.

 

2 land speeder storm.

 

I decide to combat squad the scout squad and have each combat squad jump in a speeder.

 

I do this when deployed, so, as long as i deploy them, ok.

 

But coming from reserve?? How does it work? :)

 

Can i elect to have them combat squad and jump in a speeder each before the game, having 2 groups of 5 scouts+speeder, each rolling one dice for reserve roll?

 

I'm thinking that you actually can't do this, as it says that you combat squad when deployed.

Something similar to a normal tac squad: i'd split it, and deploy the combat squad with lascannon while the other combat squad with razorback is kept in reserve. Can you do it?

 

I'm a bit confused actually...any hint/help much appreciated!! :)

[ShinyRhino]

Here's how it'd work:

 

During deployment, you decide whether to combat squad the 10-man unit, or not. You can then place both, one, or none of the resulting 5-man squads on the board. Any not placed on the board by the end of deployment are in reserves.

LSS's are deployed 100% separately from the squads, as they are NOT dedicated transports. If you want the scouts to get into the LSS's, you have to do so during a Movement phase. This means to get your two squads into a Storm, you have to start all FOUR units on the board in Turn One. Move the squads to within 2" of each Storm, and embark them. You cuold also move the LSS's to the squads and then embark the scouts.

 

Now, if the LSS's were dedicated transports, you could deploy a combat squad inside them, and they'd come onto the board in one reserve roll. But since LSS's are not Dedicated, they always roll separately. It's a stinker.

[Grey Mage]

Yeah, the problem is you choose to combat squad when the unit hits the table top... so since its a 10 man unit while in reserves it wont fit in the storms before they get onto the table top... and then you have issues if your using outflank for isntance... etc etc.

 

Talk it over with your friends, its hardly game breaking or non-sensical to be able to do this and Im sure most people would be willing to let you, just discusss it with your opponent during deployment to stay out of trouble.

[det]

Here's how it'd work:

 

During deployment, you decide whether to combat squad the 10-man unit, or not. You can then place both, one, or none of the resulting 5-man squads on the board. Any not placed on the board by the end of deployment are in reserves.

 

are you sure? i was under the impression that when the squad actually hits the board it can combat squad...so no combat squad1 in reserve while i deploy combat squad2. Am i wrong?

 

Now, if the LSS's were dedicated transports, you could deploy a combat squad inside them, and they'd come onto the board in one reserve roll. But since LSS's are not Dedicated, they always roll separately. It's a stinker.

 

ehm IIRC this is not true. As long as you delcare in which vehicles each squad rides, then you roll only one dice.

 

Thus captain+tac squad+land raider roll only one dice if you specifically say so.

 

IIRC this was a 4th ed problem, fixed with 5th, though i don't have the rulebook handy ATM...

 

--

 

Methinks Grey Mage has it. Ah though. So i should do 2 different 5 man squads...meh...or i could simply hope that speeders and scouts come in together from reserve, if kept in reserve...meh...

[Moghal]

Of course, given that both the Scouts and the Storm have the 'Scout' special rule you can deploy them, and then move them into the landspeeder on the scout move, have it zip to wherever you want it (within the usual 'scout' restrictions) and start turn 1 with them already on board.

 

M.

[greatcrusade08]

Im still a little foggy on certain particulars of this rule, but heres how i think it goes..

 

LSS CAN come in reserve and scouts can start the game embarked, sure its not a dedicated transport, but that rule only limits which units can start embarked.

 

As for reserves and combat squads, the whole squad must be put in reserve OR deployed, IIRC you cant chose to set up on half and put the other in reserves.

The kicker here is you have only one roll for the unit as a whole and they combat squad (as per your choice) when they enter the table, also note the transport attached to the squad is included in the same roll.

This is where i get a little fuzzy, as both 'halves' have to come on together, one half can come on embarked and the other has to walk on..

 

I think this is right, but im sure someone will pick up if i got something wrong.

 

Personally to counter these kind of rules problems, i generally avoid using combat squads in reserve.

 

GC08

[det]

true. Easy would be to just have two squads of 5 and that's it. Uhm.

 

Any one has other insightful tips??

 

ATM the things stands like this:

--10 man squad and two storm speeders--

 

-if i deploy everything, no problem.

 

-if i keep in reserve the squad, it can combat squad when it shows on the table. i can attach to it a storm speeder but not two (as per tac with razorback)

 

this second tactic is not bad at all.

if i want to outflank with the squad, i'll say the come with the speeder, so only one roll, then i'll split the squad, putting sgt plus 4 scouts in the speeder, and leave the other 5 scouts with ML somewhere on the flank...uhm...

[roachvan]

Unit that move on from reserves can not Combat Squad. Only units that Deep Strike with a Codex Space Marine Drop Pod.

The Problem is that when units are held in reserves they don't depoly. So thing get all hung up.

Believe me if they could combat squad when they come in then my Ravenwing would be a lot happier.

As things stand in a Dawn of war mission I can't deploy and I can't outflank because I use the full attack squadron.

[Grey Mage]

C:SM units can combat squad when they deploy....

[nighthawks]

units deploying from a drop pod can combat squad at that time. otherwise, they are split "when the unit is deployed." if the unit is kept in reserves, then it can combat squad upon arriving as this is their deployment. the reason that the drop pod is an exception is that it is a vehicle in which the whole unit must ride to the battlefield, so they are allowed to combat squad upon disembarking. other vehicles do not allow this, no matter how they were deployed or arrive.

 

yes - you can split the unit into 2 combat squads in reserves and roll for them as one.

 

no, you may not place them into transports and roll for the combat squads etc.. at once. transports that the whole unit can fit into may be combined with the unit, but they cannot then combat squad when arriving from reserves.

 

DA rules may be a bit different than C:SM rules, I'm not sure.

 

the best way to do this is to use 2 units of scouts, each with a separate LSS in reserves or combat squad the unit and buy 2 LSSs and start on table (if you can).

[det]

i opted for this solution:

 

2 10 man strong scout squad and 2 speeders...i attach one speeder to each squad, and when they come in from reserve, i split them and embark one half while the other footsloggs.

 

Is this ok?

 

Methinks tac squads with razorbacks can do this, true?

[Grey Mage]

You could do this, however it means your Storms could only move 12" after deployment.

[det]

You could do this, however it means your Storms could only move 12" after deployment.

 

why?

 

because they enter the game with no one on board...thus they must move 12" to have the scouts jump in?

[OwlandMoonGuy]

Thought it’s already been discussed I believe we are over complicating this issue. The 5th Edition rules went a long way to simplify combining units prior to starting the game. Generally speaking, any legal combination of units can be grouped together and deployed at the same time, even from reserves based on a single roll.

 

This issue gets a bit murkier because of the language used in the Combat Squads rule and in the section, Preparing reserves, BRB, pg 94. The Combat Squads rule states that the decision to break up a 10-man unit must be made, “when the unit is deployed.” So far, we’ve defined that as; when the model hits the table; i.e. models deployed to reserves haven’t actually deployed yet until they, “arrive on table.” But also note that the decision to hold units in reserve in the first place is part of the Deploy Forces section starting on BRB pg 92.

 

This is purely a RAI based conclusion but I believe the intention was to allow the combat squad split decision during the Deployment Phase so that you could split one squad of scouts up between two LSS’s and deploy them all from reserves.

 

If anyone wanted to do that in a game I wouldn’t take issue with it despite the fact that the language doesn’t quite line up perfectly to support that conclusion.

 

Just MHO, -OMG

[Grey Mage]

You could do this, however it means your Storms could only move 12" after deployment.

 

why?

 

because they enter the game with no one on board...thus they must move 12" to have the scouts jump in?

Yep, as you can only move up to 12" if you want to embark or disembark anyone.

 

Though as OMG stated, I wouldnt take issue with you doing them from reserves like that as long as you told me ahead of time.

[Agrab]

Deployment happens at the start of the game, not when something lands on the the table. This is how it would work

 

1) Deployment time per the setup and deployment style of battle

2) Put in the units that are on the board

3) declare what is in reserve, deepstrike, walking on, etc.

4) Declare combat squads (save antyhing coming in via DP)

5) declare transports, you can put your combat squads in different transports

6) next players deployment

 

 

that is how it works. This does allow you to combat squad a scout troop, place them in the LSS, and then deploy them with their LSS> However, each squad WITH its transport roles seperatly

[HiveFleetEzekial]

This does allow you to combat squad a scout troop, place them in the LSS,

 

Place half of them in the LsS, you mean. ;) Since two units cannot occupy the same transport (unless it's a super heavy transport, like the gorgon).

[Ryjak]

The easy solution is to just buy two Scout Squads and avoid the rule issue entirely. Probably not the solution you were looking for, but it's the best way to handle it.