ripath Posted June 17, 2009 Share Posted June 17, 2009 Stop! The spoiler tags aren't working on my computer so plot elements may be revealed if you continue reading. A few days ago I picked up the new ultramarine book. If you are a grey knight player I would extremely not reccomend this book. And the reasons are as follows: 1) The Grey Knight that is testing Uriel Ventris finds him pure and unfailing in his duty. Even after reading his mind and seeing that Uriel had consorted with mutants, been on a daemonworld, and been in a daemonic construction traveling up to the start of the story. 2) Uriel tells the Grey knight to remove the psycic shield protecting the govenor from wraiths, and he does it! Put simply the govenor dies a painful death. 3) Not once in the entire time that grey knights were fighting was their faith described. Even in obscure references such as the possed seemed to hesitate when approaching them. The main adjective for the grey knights was "Silver" On a different note the Grey knight character was described as being very physically able, and in unarmed he beat the crap out of both ultramarines at the same time. That was my favorite part of the book 4) After meeting the grey knights and watching them fight URIEL ISN'T MIND SCRUBBED! I can understand the greatwolf getting away after armageddon just becuse of how important he is, but two exiled ultramarines were left untouched by the grey knights GRRRRRRRR!!!! Overall I don't see why the Grey knights were added if their fluff was going to be not taken into consideration. Personnaly I think that the sisters of battle would have been a much better fit due to the enemies they were fighting, mutants, psykers, and traitors. Also the sisters would have fit into the conflict of determing if imperial rule had become corrupt more easily, and finally the Ultramarines would not have needed to have been purged after seeing them. Overall I did not like this book very much. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/171336-the-killing-ground/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grand Master Tyrak Posted June 17, 2009 Share Posted June 17, 2009 1) The Grey Knight that is testing Uriel Ventris finds him pure and unfailing in his duty. Even after reading his mind and seeing that Uriel had consorted with mutants, been on a daemonworld, and been in a daemonic construction traveling up to the start of the story. Plot armour. Assuming McNeill didn't envisage the entire story before writing the first book, he now has to employ Deus ex Machina to be able to carry on the story. It's not nice fluff-wise, but it really is BL just fulfilling their "story first, fluff second" mantra. 2) Uriel tells the Grey knight to remove the psycic shield protecting the govenor from wraiths, and he does it! Put simply the govenor dies a painful death. I wasn't too sure about this either. It came across as an attempt to bring some sort of nice, happy ending to this particular bit. That's not very Grimdark, is it? 3) Not once in the entire time that grey knights were fighting was their faith described. Even in obscure references such as the possed seemed to hesitate when approaching them. The main adjective for the grey knights was "Silver" On a different note the Grey knight character was described as being very physically able, and in unarmed he beat the crap out of both ultramarines at the same time. That was my favorite part of the book It's the Stormtrooper effect. The Grey Knights can't appear too awesome, or they'll steal the show. It's the same reason why they seem to suffer a severe case of the Rubber Nemesis Force Weapons when fighting the Lord of the Unfleshed - it allows Ventris to step in and save the day (again). 4) After meeting the grey knights and watching them fight URIEL ISN'T MIND SCRUBBED! I can understand the greatwolf getting away after armageddon just becuse of how important he is, but two exiled ultramarines were left untouched by the grey knights GRRRRRRRR!!!! Plot armour again. Having his main characters mind-scrubbed is going to put a bit of a damper on his story, isn't it? Overall I don't see why the Grey knights were added if their fluff was going to be not taken into consideration. This is Black Library. Were you honestly expecting better? ;) Oddly enough, I felt this was the best story involving Grey Knights to come out of the Black Library, even though I still agree with your assessment that it wasn't particularly good in fluff terms. I guess that's because the changes were justified by a pre-existing story (the rest of the series) that ultimately comes above fluff. Even though it rankles, it wasn't as though it was changed for no good reason, or in an attempt to create a story (unlike some other publications). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/171336-the-killing-ground/#findComment-2024736 Share on other sites More sharing options...
ripath Posted June 17, 2009 Author Share Posted June 17, 2009 This is Black Library. Were you honestly expecting better? Gaunt's ghosts, Ciaphas cain, the space wolf trilogy. and even the first three ultramarines books. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/171336-the-killing-ground/#findComment-2024747 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hellbreaker Posted June 17, 2009 Share Posted June 17, 2009 ok... That sounds like something I'd write in... 15 minutes... Maybe... And that'd be better, at least fluff-wise. ;) So well I'll thank you for this, now I don't have to get the book. ^^ *edits list of Books-to-not-ever-read* Cheers! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/171336-the-killing-ground/#findComment-2024777 Share on other sites More sharing options...
ripath Posted June 17, 2009 Author Share Posted June 17, 2009 I'm sorry Tyrak but since I know that Mc Niel can and has written better stories that it could have been a lot better, which is why I disagree. Plot armour. Assuming McNeill didn't envisage the entire story before writing the first book, he now has to employ Deus ex Machina to be able to carry on the story. It's not nice fluff-wise, but it really is BL just fulfilling their "story first, fluff second" mantra. Yes but it is badly written plot armor! the first step in writing a story is normally writting what you want to have happen in it, and then filling in the details. In guant;s ghosts does the piper just get off scott free from the inquisition? No! he just proves that he was being a con man not a psyker. Making strong things weak is horrible writing! The solution: Use cunning or exceptions that have a reason for them existing. ie make it so that due to uriel's knowledge the gk will keep him alive so he can be interrogated later. Uriel escapes, and avoids the inquisition for the rest of his days. I wasn't too sure about this either. It came across as an attempt to bring some sort of nice, happy ending to this particular bit. That's not very Grimdark, is it? Also it just doesn't make sense even from uriel's viewpoint why? if govenor is mean/evil(I would just call him heavy handed which isn't really that bad for 40k.) and you let daemons or evil spirits touch him then your risking him turning daemonic! Which would have put a decent spin on things, but it didn't happen. It's the Stormtrooper effect. The Grey Knights can't appear too awesome, or they'll steal the show. It's the same reason why they seem to suffer a severe case of the Rubber Nemesis Force Weapons when fighting the Lord of the Unfleshed - it allows Ventris to step in and save the day (again). Gah! No NO NO! You don't need to downplay a characters abillities in order for them not to steal the show. You can also have the characters split up or death or glory both of which limit their appearence but still gives readers that are atatched to the characters the satisfaction that the ones they liked accomplished something. Stormtrooper effect is horrible, especially if you are a decent DM or GM, every character is important however that doesn't mean that all the characters have to contribute in the same way. Another way of looking at is like saying that only combat oriented characters in a story should be making contributions because the story is about fighting. Plot armour again. Having his main characters mind-scrubbed is going to put a bit of a damper on his story, isn't it? But not specifying why they have plot armor is even worse then using plot armor too much. atleast he could have added in a snippet about how the ultramarines won't get a report from the firsthand witnesses if they mindscrub them now. Oddly enough, I felt this was the best story involving Grey Knights to come out of the Black Library :P Maybe its just me but I liked Ben Counter a lot more then Graham Mcneil. But that might also be because I really don't see the point of imperial guardsmen who had fought the arch enemy getting all whiny and complainy about destroying a town that had innocent people in it. I mean come on what happened to "better one hundred innocents die then one bow before the daemon"? There are a few things that were good or atleast new spins on grey knights that I didn't mind. Mainly the way that the Grey Knights were acting outside the bounds of inquisitorial mandate and just being on their own. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/171336-the-killing-ground/#findComment-2024818 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grand Master Tyrak Posted June 17, 2009 Share Posted June 17, 2009 Gaunt's ghosts, Ciaphas cain, the space wolf trilogy. and even the first three ultramarines books. Dammit, I have the first three all sitting on my bookshelf and I still haven't read them . . . Yes but it is badly written plot armor! I concede that. Gah! No NO NO! You don't need to downplay a characters abillities in order for them not to steal the show. Well, let's face it, Grey Knights are more awesome than normal Marines. They would always have to be downplayed to make someone other than them the hero. I might have been better if they played up Ventris instead though . . . maybe. ;) But not specifying why they have plot armor is even worse then using plot armor too much. atleast he could have added in a snippet about how the ultramarines won't get a report from the firsthand witnesses if they mindscrub them now. Again, conceded. Having a need for it in order to continue the story is no guarantee of doing it well. But that might also be because I really don't see the point of imperial guardsmen who had fought the arch enemy getting all whiny and complainy about destroying a town that had innocent people in it. Yeah, that did get a "Wait, what?" moment. Pity really, it was a fine moment to introduce some grimdark by having a Grey Knight pointedly ask "What innocents?". Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/171336-the-killing-ground/#findComment-2024845 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luc O' Luck Posted June 17, 2009 Share Posted June 17, 2009 the space wolf trilogy The original Space Wolf Trilogy was basically Gotrek and Felix in Space. William King couldn't write an original story if it swam up his nose. His books are formulaic and his fluff apocryphal, where it isn't wildly inaccurate. But hey, such is the Black Library, right? The only books I like are Dan Abnett and Sandy Mitchel ones, to be brutally frank. William King story: 1. Beginning where Self Projected hero is presented. 2. Quest. 3. Unresovled Romance during Quest. 4. Resolution of Quest with lead into next Quest. 5. Repeat. Try to keep the language a little more user friendly - Marshal Paul Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/171336-the-killing-ground/#findComment-2024917 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eddie Orlock Posted June 17, 2009 Share Posted June 17, 2009 Overall I don't see why the Grey knights were added if their fluff was going to be not taken into consideration.This is Black Library. Were you honestly expecting better? :D Once again I find my opinion that one should effectively disregard all 'Black Library' works as 'substantially unreliable' when trying to construct a view of the fortyfirst millennium reinforced. I make a slight point of not buying or reading their material so as to not risk corrupting the knowledge I do have. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/171336-the-killing-ground/#findComment-2024934 Share on other sites More sharing options...
ripath Posted June 18, 2009 Author Share Posted June 18, 2009 I make a slight point of not buying or reading their material so as to not risk corrupting the knowledge I do have. Why do I get the feeling that you haven't gone two years without a 40k game? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/171336-the-killing-ground/#findComment-2024978 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eddie Orlock Posted June 18, 2009 Share Posted June 18, 2009 At present, no. I have, and I still didn't. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/171336-the-killing-ground/#findComment-2025031 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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