Counter attack house rule

[Bobman]

I'm going to a tourney at the weekend and just skimmed through their forum and came across some house rules.

 

For SW Counter Attack they seem to imply that BC get +1 and GH with TG get +1 but cannot claim benifit from TG ie no +1 for 2 CCWs

 

I don't wanna start another argument about which way is right, but the most common I thought were either +1 across the board or BC get +2 and GH using TG get +0 but +1 for 2 CCWs. Agreed?

 

This house rule seems to shaft both BC and GH using TG. What do I do? Kick up stink, back out, take it and make do? What do you guys think?

[Ryzouken]

Shoot them, then set them on fire.

 

Standard containment protocols.

[Valerian]

I'm going to a tourney at the weekend and just skimmed through their forum and came across some house rules.

 

For SW Counter Attack they seem to imply that BC get +1 and GH with TG get +1 but cannot claim benifit from TG ie no +1 for 2 CCWs

 

I don't wanna start another argument about which way is right, but the most common I thought were either +1 across the board or BC get +2 and GH using TG get +0 but +1 for 2 CCWs. Agreed?

 

This house rule seems to shaft both BC and GH using TG. What do I do? Kick up stink, back out, take it and make do? What do you guys think?

 

As far as I can tell from your post, there is no real impact to the Grey Hunter Packs with Bolters; they will still get a total of 2 attack regardless of whether they attack or get attacked.

 

For the Blood Claws, this house rule has basically interpreted the rule such that Blood Claws will still get +1 attack for a successful countercharge (assuming they pass the Ld test), but will not get to Berserk Charge. This is a perfectly reasonable interpretation of how this could/should work. Although the consensus here on the Fang is to allow Berserk Charge, there was still some dissent. Thus my recommendation is to go with it; this is neither unreasonable nor unfair.

 

Regards,

 

Valerian

[Grey Mage]

Have you shown them the wording of Beserk Charge in your codex that states that when you would get +1 attack for assaulting you instead get +2? And then compared it to counterattack wich says you get +1 attack as if you had charged. Italicized because thats the important part.

 

It also means that when assaulting say Tau Firewarriors with defensive grenades you dont get any bonus attacks etc.

 

But they are 100% correct in that Bolter weilding Grey Hunters do not benefit from Counter-attack at all, unless armed with a powerfist. Bolt Pistol armed Grey Hunters do not benefit from the true grit obviously, but do get the +1 for counterattacking normally.

[WG Vrox]

Without telling them what rule you would like to have them review I would ask them by email if they allow reviews of their rules. If they say yes and are willing to hear your input then provide them with a well stated argument and accept their ruling without complaint. Their house, there rules <_<

 

 

WG Vrox

[Ragnars Claw]

If thats the pompey pillage i'd not bother going. Most of the clarifications are rubbish imho.

[Hfran Morkai]

Right so Grey Hunters don't get true grit as listed in the codex but benefit from counter attack? Are you sure that's for bolter armed Grey Hunters and not BP/CCW armed Hunters? I don't have a problem people saying Blood Claws only get one attack on the counter attack because they rarely get charged but messing around with true grit? That's not on. Our book states clearly how it works even if it is 10 years old.

[LPetersson]

Whether you take it as RAW or RAI it's fairly clear the BCs get +2A on the counter charge and GHs with BP/CCW +1A for counter charge.

 

Contact them and ask them nicely if they'll review decisions, and to help you back it up, in case they're too illiterate to read the rules, you can point them to Adepticon's house rules which allow it.

And more importantly, didn't allow it at first, but when the actual wording was pointed out to them, changed it to the correct interpretation B)

[Bobman]

I dont mind playing either +1A for everyone or as cahrged for everyone, whatever. This just seems like +1A for BC and as charged for GH w TG.

 

Is it really worth asking for a review or am I just gonna be the guy who b****ed and moaned?

[LPetersson]

I dont mind playing either +1A for everyone or as cahrged for everyone, whatever. This just seems like +1A for BC and as charged for GH w TG.

 

Is it really worth asking for a review or am I just gonna be the guy who b****ed and moaned?

 

How you're percieved will depend on the maturity of your approach and the maturity of the organisers.

 

No one serious could possibly mind peer review and a genuine problem with the house rules. They may just not have realised the wording of the USR...

[Valerian]

Right so Grey Hunters don't get true grit as listed in the codex but benefit from counter attack? Are you sure that's for bolter armed Grey Hunters and not BP/CCW armed Hunters? I don't have a problem people saying Blood Claws only get one attack on the counter attack because they rarely get charged but messing around with true grit? That's not on. Our book states clearly how it works even if it is 10 years old.

 

As I stated earlier, for the Grey Hunters with Bolters, it is a moot point - they get 2 attacks regardless of how you look at it. They have 1 attack base and either get a ) +1 attack for True Grit, or b ) +1 attack for a successful counterattack, but not both. So it's 2 attacks for Grey Hunters with Bolter and CCW, no matter what.

 

Valerian

[Hfran Morkai]

Ah but true grit was given to us for prolonged combats, hence why we are not the close combat monsters people percieve and more close quarters combat specialists. The amount of times I've had a combat last more than a turn means that true grit is key to winning.

[Bobman]

Right so Grey Hunters don't get true grit as listed in the codex but benefit from counter attack? Are you sure that's for bolter armed Grey Hunters and not BP/CCW armed Hunters? I don't have a problem people saying Blood Claws only get one attack on the counter attack because they rarely get charged but messing around with true grit? That's not on. Our book states clearly how it works even if it is 10 years old.

 

As I stated earlier, for the Grey Hunters with Bolters, it is a moot point - they get 2 attacks regardless of how you look at it. They have 1 attack base and either get a ) +1 attack for True Grit, or b ) +1 attack for a successful counterattack, but not both. So it's 2 attacks for Grey Hunters with Bolter and CCW, no matter what.

 

Valerian

 

I posted in their forum and it seems that they have come to this conclusion by misreading these rules.

 

They seem to propose that GH get 1A and cannot use TG on the turn they charge, but do gain +1A for charging.

 

This all equals the same but as they are getting there by different means it is distorting other rules.

 

On this front on the counter attack GH get +1A as charged but as they cannot use TG in the first round do not get +1A for 2CCWs.

[Grey Mage]

Its nothing to do with the first round- if you fail your counterattack leadership test you dont get the bonus, but you still get true grit.

 

Do you have a linky?

[Bobman]

Its nothing to do with the first round- if you fail your counterattack leadership test you dont get the bonus, but you still get true grit.

 

Do you have a linky?

 

Exactly my point.

 

On this forum it's about all game systems for this tournament and I've only had 1 reply to the query on this house rule. I pointed out the problems with their interpretations with true grit but no reply yet. It's alot for a little.

 

I can try and put up a link but I'm afraid I'm not good with computers. :P

[Valerian]

Ah but true grit was given to us for prolonged combats, hence why we are not the close combat monsters people percieve and more close quarters combat specialists. The amount of times I've had a combat last more than a turn means that true grit is key to winning.

 

The True Grit doesn't go away; the Grey Hunters keep it throughout the duration of the combat - thus I say again, no matter what, Grey Hunters with a Bolter and CCW will always have 2 attacks, regardless of whether they charge, get charged, 2nd turn of close combat, 10th turn of close combat, etc. It doesn't matter what the situation is, the result is always the same: 2 attacks.

 

I looked back through this thread and saw where some initial confusion for you and Bobman may have occured, when he stated:

and GH with TG get +1 but cannot claim benifit from TG ie no +1 for 2 CCWs

 

I believe that this house rule is addressing the first turn of combat only, thus my assessment of no impact (no net loss or gain of attacks) for our Grey Hunters. The only way this would be an issue is if this particular house rule for the tournament is meant to apply all of the time (essentially taking away True Grit completely) in which case Bobman does have a legitimate beef/complaint for the tournament organizers, as they are completely taking away an army special rule that the army pays for and this could/would dramatically affect the effectiveness of the list.

 

 

Valerian

[Bobman]

Valerian - Sorry dude my point is not with the effectiveness of GH. As you say it's pretty much the same.

 

My gripe is that the counter attack rule should be the same for all ie

 

+1A for GH and BC

 

or as charged for all giving BCs +2 and GH with TG +0

 

Their interpretation is that BCs get +1 and GH with TG get +0 giving BC 3A on counter and GH with TG 2A on counter.

 

Do you see my problem?

[Lord Rao]

Yes, I see your point, but I think that has been addressed by Grey Mage's first reply on this topic, where he suggests:

 

"Have you shown them the wording of Beserk Charge in your codex that states that when you would get +1 attack for assaulting you instead get +2? And then compared it to counterattack wich says you get +1 attack as if you had charged. Italicized because thats the important part."

 

That, to me, is basically all there's to it. Whether they will accept that ruling is really up to them. Whether you then want to play in that tournament is up to you.

 

No new info, sorry, but it seems to have been adressed in this thread whichever way you choose to look at it.

[Hfran Morkai]

Yeah sorry Val. It just doesn't seem to make much sense. Counter attack was a relic from a 3rd ed rulebook and it seems stupid to use both of the rules when Grey Hunters have true grit anyway.

[Valerian]

Yeah sorry Val. It just doesn't seem to make much sense. Counter attack was a relic from a 3rd ed rulebook and it seems stupid to use both of the rules when Grey Hunters have true grit anyway.

 

 

Mikal,

 

It is not really stupid to have both of the rules, as they are army-wide rules, not unit rules. Depending on how an individual model is armed, he will benefit from either one or the other.

 

1. Models with Bolters and a CCW would normally only have 1 attack when charged, and 2 attacks when charging. True Grit makes this go to 2 attacks when charged, but it is still 2 attacks when charging.

 

2. Models with Bolt Pistols and a CCW would normally only have 2 attacks when charged, and 3 attacks when charging. Counterattack makes this go to 3 attacks (if Ld check is passed) when charged, but it is still 3 attacks when charging.

 

3. By extension, Blood Claws with a Bolt Pistol and CCW should work the same way. They would normally have 2 attacks when charged and 4 attacks when charging (due to Berzerk Charge). Counterattack should also make them go to 4 attacks (if Ld check is passed) and 4 attacks when charging.

 

4. The new rules with 5th edition that requires a model have two Power Fists, or Thunderhammers (and the old rule for Lightning Claws) in order to get the additional attack for a second CCW. So, models with only one of these weapons (and with and Attacks Characteristic of 1) would normally have only 1 attack when charged, and 2 attacks when charging. Counterattack makes this go to 2 attacks when charged, but it is still 2 attacks when charging (regardless of whether their other weapon was a Bolter or a Bolt Pistol).

 

 

There is a beautiful symetry to how these two army special rules work together for the Space Wolves. The only things that interfere with this dynamic are Wolf Pelts, which add an additional attack to a successful Counterattack (thus giving a model more attacks when recieving a charge than when charging.

 

 

Regards,

 

Valerian

 

 

 

Both rules only help in the defense - there are no advantages whatsover when the Space Wolves themselves charge into an assault.

[OnlyInDeath]

Beautifully stated Val. Sorry I couldn't jump in here before to post that up before ya, but that's exactly how it works. And it IS a beautiful thing, as it keeps our GH's as the most badass defensive marines in the game. We can sit there and rapid fire you half to death, and then TAKE a charge just as good (if not better considering the PW's and PF's) as nilla marines on the charge. Makes GH's rock hard. Dont poo poo True grit, and I will definately be sad to see it go. However, most likely we'll get the bolter/bp/ccw setup for our GH's so we wont really need it.

[Coverfire]

So if Blood Claws DO get their Berserk charge, Does that mean anyone that counter-attacks with Furious Charge (providing they had the Counter-attack skill) would get +1 Str & +1 Ini ?

[Grey Mage]

Hrmm... well lets go look at the book.

Counter-attack.

To represent this, when a unit with this rule is assaulted by the enemy it must take a leadership test. If the test is successful then all models in the unit get the +1 attack bonus to their attacks, exactly as if they too had assaulted that turn.

 

Furious Charge:

In a turn in wich they assaulted into combat add +1 to both their initiative and strength when attacking in close combat (....)

 

Im going to say no on this one. Counter-attack specificly mentions that its the attack bonus that the unit receives, clarifying that its their attack bonus for charging thats used as the baseline. It doesnt say anything about any other rules or bonuses- so for instance that would imply no furious charge, and no str 6 powerweapons for Shining Spears *if they had it*.

[Thaelion Hexis]

The Grey Hunters and True Grit thing got a little over complicated somewhere ;)

 

As per the rules, models with a bolter may use it as a pistol/close combat weapon. The drawback is that they may never get the +1 Attack for charging (which would also include counter-attack). The True Grit remains constant.

 

Changing the wording to not having True Grit on the charge but benefitting from the charge bonus may have the same effect, but as you can see makes it sound a whole lot more complicated.

 

Grey Hunters with pistols, though not using True Grit, happen to have two close combat weapons, so that is a moot point, except that they may still gain the charge bonus.

 

As for the Blood Claw issue, I would be of the +2 Attack ruling, since it is as though they were charging.

[Grey Mage]

Its actually how the rule works though. You dont get true grit if your charging "because its to difficult to pistol grip a bolter while hurtling towards the enemy".