Cost to power

[Gaz1858]

Im just writing an army list right now and considering what unit to use for my Heavy support.

 

I have a combi-pred already and considering whether another combi-pred or Dev squad would be better.

 

In my list there are 2 ironclads, a combi-pred and a rhino so another combi-pred wouldnt be left on its own in terms of armour in my army. It would come in at 120pts.

 

The other option is a devestator squad. Now i have used a 4ML squad in the past band it worked well. it only lacked the ability to get through AV 13 or 14 with ease. SO im considering a 2ML 2 Las squad. This would come in at 190pts.

 

I have a MOTF in the list so the Dev squad would have a fair cover save if possible.

 

So what do the board think????? Combi pred or Dev?

[waaanial00]

Hmmm. This is always a tricky one, Infantry based heavy weapons vs Tank based ones.

 

I want to say the 2 ML 2 LC dev squad because it has more lascannon shots (one of which is essentially twin linked in that it is BS5) and also has 2 missile shots. Given that you are already putting down quite a lot of fire first turn, even in Dawn of War scenario, with your Ironclads and combi-pred I think you could do with more shots throughout the game.

 

Plus more rolls to hit means likelyhood of more rolls on the damage table per game, which will lead to a greater chance of a favourable outcome.

 

I suppose it comes down to what else you can do with the 70 point difference and does that enable you to take the loss of multiple damage rolls.

 

Ramblings aside I think 5 wounds in at least 4+ cover along with more heavy weapons beats combi-pred in a long distance firefight. Once you start to reduce the distance the Pred starts to get better but to be honest I still favour the dev squad. I need all the dice I can get it seems.

 

Wan

[corvux]

With the extra 70 or so points you could get a 5 man scout squad with snipers and rocket launcher, I like scouts and I think for the points you can get either the pred with scout squad or your dev squad but in terms of firepower in the end there not that much different its more down to your personal preference on this I think.

[Giga]

SO im considering a 2ML 2 Las squad.

5 men devastator squads with 4 heavy weapons are a bad bad bad idea, because any smart opponent will shoot them and cause you to roll saves with your heavy weapons early on, potentially losing them. You need some ablative wounds ie. bolter marines to serve as bullet sponges so that your heavy weapon guys can live longer.

 

I say you should take two predators with lascannon sponsors and autocannon turret. Two of them cost 240 pts, and they have a number of advantages over the dev squad;

 

- they are probably going to be more resilient to enemy shooting then a dev squad, and are going to be immune to small arms fire

- they can shoot even if they moved 6", which is extremely important in dawn of war deployment, where you waste a whole turn of shooting with your devs to begin with

- they are actually cheaper then a full dev squad

 

The only problem is that two predators equal two killpoints.

With the extra 70 or so points you could get a 5 man scout squad with snipers and rocket launcher, I like scouts and I think for the points you can get either the pred with scout squad or your dev squad but in terms of firepower in the end there not that much different its more down to your personal preference on this I think.

I would advise against taking sniper scouts.

 

They shoot their rocket launcher at BS3, so thats one ML hit every 2 turns, and the 4 snipers will deliver one AP- wound per turn, on average. In addition, the scouts themselves are an easy kill point - especially if they don't have camo-cloaks. Not worth it.

[waaanial00]

5 men devastator squads with 4 heavy weapons are a bad bad bad idea, because any smart opponent will shoot them and cause you to roll saves with your heavy weapons early on, potentially losing them. You need some ablative wounds ie. bolter marines to serve as bullet sponges so that your heavy weapon guys can live longer.

 

This is a real world in a vacuum approach to gaming and it runs on the assumption that a smart player has enough heavy weapons to target said unit whilst simultaneously dealing with the other dangers on the board. Considering also that there are potentially 2 of said units both deployed in cover far out of range for most normal weapons I think you are overrating their chances of demise.

 

Are you suggesting that a smart player will ignore the 2 Ironclads, Combi-Pred and transports in order to target the two dev squads with his long range (usually anit tank) weapons?

 

I understand the benefit of ablative wounds on such a squad but given the composition of the army as a whole it is not a default triple bad idea, IMO its not even a single bad idea.

 

Now your idea of taking 2 autocannon and lascannon preds actually lowers his effective anti tank on the move, which if you are facing off against smart players will likely be the case, due to the fact that his primary weapon is S7, his lascannons have a worse firring arc (and elevation) and neither are twin linked.

 

I hope you are not thinking that I am getting at you Giga, just wanted to point out that general good advice sometimes isnt the answer if the player is doing something out of the norm anyway.

 

Having seen Gaz's army in action I believe that 5 man Dev squads is actually playing to his strengths and I know that he already has the combi pred model built.

 

Wan

[ShinyRhino]

With the extra 70 or so points you could get a 5 man scout squad with snipers and rocket launcher, I like scouts and I think for the points you can get either the pred with scout squad or your dev squad but in terms of firepower in the end there not that much different its more down to your personal preference on this I think.

 

85 points, minimum. As mentioned, theproblem is hitting anything with those weapons, and keeping them alive for longer than one blast template.

[Gaz1858]

Cheers for the views guys. It still seems to be differing slightly based on people experiences.

 

@Waaanial00 Your right about the 5 man Dev squads. I always take them in 5s and very rarely lose more than 3 men over the course of the entire game. It will provide a higher chance of breaking through armour with one las on BS5 and another two S8 ML to the combis 2 S7 Autocannon. Against troops the ML win though with the frag blast catching more on avg.

 

@corvux. Thanks for the idea, ive tried scouts before but not found them to be useful. I want to like them. Just cant

 

@rage The resilience of the tanks over the 5 devs is something i cant quite decide on. One shot could take out the tank but then lower S weapons can take out the devs. I play quite aggressively so my opponent will have the two Ironclads (this might go to three), Tac in Rhino, Tac in Droppod with Kantor, MOTF on bike all atleast halfway up the board to deal with. I generally find my HS stuff gets left alone. People are less afraid of devs and preds than say LRs or Vindis for some reason.

 

Thanks for the ideas so far guys. Keep them coming. At the moment i think im leaning slightly to the Dev side mainly due to versatility of the ML and the fact my MOTF may be able to get +1 cover save on them giving in general a 3+ inv which should help if any shots do come there way.

[minigun762]

I have a combi-pred already and considering whether another combi-pred or Dev squad would be better.

 

In my list there are 2 ironclads, a combi-pred and a rhino so another combi-pred wouldnt be left on its own in terms of armour in my army. It would come in at 120pts.

 

The other option is a devestator squad. Now i have used a 4ML squad in the past band it worked well. it only lacked the ability to get through AV 13 or 14 with ease. SO im considering a 2ML 2 Las squad. This would come in at 190pts.

 

My first instinct is to go with the Combi-Predator, since you already have so much armor on the board, another piece will only be more survivable. Its 70 points cheaper and still alot of ranged firepower. Don't think of it as mobile firepower as much as its a 3 weapon Dev squad with a built in Rhino. It can move if you have a good reason, otherwise it needs to be static and shooting.

 

The Devs aren't a bad option but I would agree that 5 guys and 4 Heavy weapons may be asking for trouble.

Its not so much their anti-tank weapons that would be a worry, but any kind of long range anti-infantry or ordnance weapons

 

Are you suggesting that a smart player will ignore the 2 Ironclads, Combi-Pred and transports in order to target the two dev squads with his long range (usually anit tank) weapons?

With all due respect, I would agree that while a smart player would not be targeting Devs with anti-tank weapons, they would be pounding them with Heavy Bolters, Multi-Lasers, Battle Cannons etc etc as those weapons are less effective against hard targets. Even with the MotF, you only need to start taking a few wounds before your forced to take Leadership checks.

The Devs aren't a bad option but I would agree that 5 guys and 4 Heavy weapons may be asking for trouble.

 

 

If you aren't interested in doing another Combi-Predator, I would take the 5 man Dev squad but cut out 1 LasCannon. That brings the point cost down considerably and it frees up a Marine to act as your first bullet sponge.

The overall firepower is still equivalent to the Combi-Predator (2 Missiles/1 LasCannon vs 1 AutoCannon/2 LasCannons) and the point cost is much more reasonable.

 

Just to make your life more difficult :P have you thought about a shooty Dreadnought? You'd be able to move and fire 2 weapons which would give you more mobility then either choice. I forget the exact point cost, but it should be around the same.

[Fintan]

A conversation I read recently between yourself and Idaho has convinced me to buy two Combi-Preds of my own. Buying them tomorrow and testing them out on Sunday in a couple of 1500pt battles. If you can wait that long, I'll happily report back on their performance. :P

[Gaz1858]

Haha cheers for giving me more brain ache!!!!

 

Yes i have considered that however im going to have 3 ironclads anyway. The MOTF would allow me to have more but then i never take missile launchers on dreads. The most i do is TLL and DCCW. And thats more points then the combi pred anyway.

 

Ok heres the list the unit will be joining. May help with opinions

 

Kantor + Tactical -Multimelta,meltagun,powerweapon in Drop pod

Tactical - Plasma Cannon, Meltagun,Power weapon in Rhino

MOTF - Bike, Power weapon( will either join 2nd tac squad or turbo boost 1st turn then be a nuisance)

3 ironclads

predator - combi

 

TOTAL 1305

 

 

I essentially have 2 HQ, 2 Troops, 2 Transport, 1 HS plus the dreads either as HS or Elite

 

EDIT*** Cheers Fintan that would be great!!!

[Captain Idaho]

A conversation I read recently between yourself and Idaho has convinced me to buy two Combi-Preds of my own. Buying them tomorrow and testing them out on Sunday in a couple of 1500pt battles. If you can wait that long, I'll happily report back on their performance. :)

 

Ha, we are inspiring!

 

I think the decision is a really hard one. Looking at the army you have already, an extra 5 infantry models would be useful, as the list is aggressive and a distraction could be useful. I think a player will be hard put to fire at them when they have Kantor and 20 Marines baring down on them, half of which are causing trouble turn one in a Drop Pod with Kantor.

 

On the other hand, another tank will be overwhelming in that army!

 

As I haven't much time right now, I will quickly say that I reckon the extra bodies could help. You appear to only have 20 men which is potentially going to be hard to take objectives, though of course you only need 1 to win.

 

Could you not comprimise and drop the MotF and use the points saved to get both a Combi-Predator and a Devastator squad :D

[minigun762]

Kantor + Tactical -Multimelta,meltagun,powerweapon in Drop pod

Tactical - Plasma Cannon, Meltagun,Power weapon in Rhino

MOTF - Bike, Power weapon( will either join 2nd tac squad or turbo boost 1st turn then be a nuisance)

3 ironclads

predator - combi

 

Looking at your list again, my new advice is neither.

 

Two Troops choices is just not enough in my book. I'd use those extra points for more bodies on the table.

Some options would be

1) 10 Sniper Scouts with a Heavy Bolter/Missile Launcher. Lots of cheap firepower, sure its only BS3 but that will be 4-5 hits plus the Heavy Weapon which isn't horrible.

2) 10 Tactical Marines, LasCannon, Plasma Gun. A supersized version of the old 6 man Plas/Las squad. I'd probably combat squad them into a Plasmagun squad and LasCannon squad.

3) Sternguards with 2 Heavies. Similar to your Dev squad. You're basically trading 1-2 Heavy Weapons for special ammo and scoring status.

4) Sternguard with Combi-Weapons and transport. A more aggressive squad. Give them Combi-Meltas and either Drop Pod or Rhino and take out tanks that way.

5) Bikers with a Meltagun, Power Fist and Multi-Melta Attack Bike attached. Fast moving and still solid anti-tank.

[Gaz1858]

Cheers guys. The scoring units is another thing i was worried about. Having only 2 did seem a bit small. As im not a huge fan of scouts (thats GC08 not talking to me anymore :cuss ) i only have tacs and Stern to choose from.

 

With what people have been saying i think im going to go for the combipred. I love it and the sight of two in my army makes me feel all fuzzy!! And besides it's definately one of my personal choice units in the dex. The devs, while powerful just came in at too high a cost. Shame as i like them but maybe in a battle larger than 1500.

 

Ive also decided to reduce the ironclads down to 2. The reason being that 2 should suffice considering the extra tank target and free up more points for a 3rd scoring unit. The MOTF is staying in the list now until playtesting,i love the character and feel 3 power weapon attacks(4 if 12" of Kantor) and 2 powerfist attacks while having a 2+ save and T5 must count for something. Plus he can help a dread if it becomes immobilised.

 

So the list again:

Kantor + 10man Tac- MM,MG,PWeapon,Drop pod = 400

10 man tac-PC,MG,PWeapon,Rhino = 230

2 Ironclads

2 Combi preds

 

The units i would choose between for the remaining 210 points are:

Legion of the damned - for sheer uber coolness

Sternguard - overpriced in my eyes but you guys give opinions

Tac - even a small 5 man in a rhino is a scoring unit. Would 3 Tacs be too much?

Attack bikes - HB or MM attachment? i have two of these models available. Could join MOTF.

Any form of dread bar venerable - I love dreads

Devestators - can i still afford to put them in? At the cost of anything else?

Assault squad -9 man squad with Twin lightning claw sgt?

Terminator assault squad - with no delivery are these guys worth the 200 pts?

combipred No 3 - too many?

Whirlwind- any use at all?

 

Thats all the choices id take from the dex. Feel free to suggest different wargear to what ive given my armylist but the units themselves stay. With the extra 210 pts though, FIRE AWAY!!!

[DarkGuard]

I'd go with a Sternguard Squad personally, as you can outfit them with some cheap(ish) heavy weapons to take care of infantry or vehicles, and with Pedro in the list they'll be a scoring unit. Plus, they have more attacks than normal Marines and a longer range, and they really aren't that expensive IMO.

 

Either that or a large Tactical Squad with heavy weapon or a large Scout Sniper squad, the camo cloaks should make them hard to budge.

[minigun762]

First Choice would be

10 Tactical Marines with free weapons and a TL Heavy Bolter Razorback.

Second Choice would be

10 Tactical Marines, LasCannon, Plasmagun

Third Choice

5-6 Sternguard with 2 Heavies (very similar to your Dev squad)

[DevianID]

If you are running pedro, then 5 stern with 2 las cannons and a rhino are 190 points. They can fire both lascannons from the top hatch, they are a scoring unit, and they can move and fire some very useful bolters.

 

Other than that, 5 devs with 3-4 missile launchers are a fantastic buy at 135-150, as the missile launcher has good range, good power, and the ability to switch to antihorde by firing blast templates. Dont bother with las cannons unless you want to run a fluffy (ie not as competitive) 10 man squad, in which case run 1 las cannon + sarge as 1 combat squad and 3 missile launchers as the other combat squad.

 

That said, I am a huge fan of the combi-pred--I crusaded to coin the term 'combi-pred' so that everyone would instantly know the autocannon 2 las predator config. The combi pred boasts greater quality of armor cracking shots than the dev squad point for point, and there are times when the ap2 of the las cannons will be golden versus things like oblits.

 

Also, with the change to vehicle survivability, and the real threat of fast/outflanking assault armies that simply mock static units like devestators, the pred gets even more love.

[Giga]

This is a real world in a vacuum approach to gaming and it runs on the assumption that a smart player has enough heavy weapons to target said unit whilst simultaneously dealing with the other dangers on the board. Considering also that there are potentially 2 of said units both deployed in cover far out of range for most normal weapons I think you are overrating their chances of demise.

 

Are you suggesting that a smart player will ignore the 2 Ironclads, Combi-Pred and transports in order to target the two dev squads with his long range (usually anit tank) weapons?

Nah, I'm suggesting that a smart player will use his meltaguns, multimeltas, close combat specialists, and anti-mc/walker specialists (th/ss termies and monstrous creatures come to mind) to deal with the dreads and the transports (and whatever is in those transports), while reserving their long range fire to take out/cripple the dev squads.

 

Imagine you're fighting an IG army, for example. They're gonna be having plenty of leman russes with them annoying battle cannons, as well as orbital bombardments and other long range nastiness that can decimate devastator squads + this same army is likely to have some meltas nearby to deal with the pesky dreads. Even with a 4+ cover save, those battlecannon shots are going to hurt a 5 men devastator squad, whether if they had a few ablative wounds this drastically lowers the chance of forced leadership tests, or lost heavy weapons.

 

There are other things, too. Heavy bolters, multi-lasers, plasma cannons, orbital bombardments etc. that can all effectively reach the dev squad. Not to mention some armies have "in your face" methods of getting close to you early on. Deep striking, outflanking etc. are all ways one can use to quickly get into rapid fire range of your devs, and literally fry the whole unit in a single turn.

 

Also, don't forget a 5 men squad, no matter how far in your deployment zone it is, is still only a 5 men squad. It's an easy KP, simple as, and I for one never had problems dealing with it.

 

Finally, the 4 heavy weapon 5 men dev squad also suffers a lot from bad luck. Let's say you suffer 5 wounds from some source. Let's say that, with just a little bad luck, you fail 3 saves, and lose 3 heavy weapons. Your squad is suddenly lowered to sergeant and a heavy weapon guy, and they have to test for leadership. This might seem like a ridiculous example, but I've seen stuff like this happen more often then one would expect. A streak of bad luck, and your 190 pts unit becomes useless, whether it could be considerably more durable if only you spent another 50-60 points to get 3 or 4 additional marines. When it comes to luck, a predator is a lot more honest; no matter how lucky he is, your opponent is highly unlikely to be able to do something to your predator with his heavy bolters, and your predator will never run away, or be pinned down, or be forced to forgo a whole turn of shooting just because it's the dawn of war deployment and it had to move to arrive on the battlefield.

Now your idea of taking 2 autocannon and lascannon preds actually lowers his effective anti tank on the move, which if you are facing off against smart players will likely be the case, due to the fact that his primary weapon is S7, his lascannons have a worse firring arc (and elevation) and neither are twin linked.

Ummm... What exactly do you mean by "on the move"? Are you actually moving your combi predators? IMHO, a predator is much like a dev squad. You park them in one place where they can have good view of the battlezone, and you shoot. Their long range (36" with heavy bolters, and 48" with everything else) is there to be taken advantage of. There's no benefit to moving them close to the enemy, unless you absolutely can't draw line of sight and have to do so in order to even be able to shoot at something.

[Fintan]

Regarding the extra Combi-Predator....do it! They were the absolute stars of my game today, soaking up long-range firepower and causing the deaths of no less than:

 

Two Chaos Rhinos.

1 Defiler

An entire squad of Thousand Sons

A Daemon Prince

 

The best 240pts I ever spent. 13AV is actually a lot stronger than I expected, especially with the tanks generally being out of melta-range if deployed sensibly! If I'd only had one I expect it would have spent the entire game at least shaken but with two there was always at least one firing every turn and I've learnt never to underestimate the humble autocannon, that thing can shred armour and troops alike. The perfect transport popper and a consistent menace to vehicles and troops alike.... I may have to invest in a 3rd in the future. :D

[Gaz1858]

Cheers Fintan for getting back with that!!

 

I have decided it is definately going to be 2 combi preds i use. As for the remaining points, most people here chose sternguard so im going to give them a run again with a 5 man team, LC and 2 combimeltas. Along with a multi melta attack bike for the remaining 50.

 

The Attack bike will either go on its own tank hunting or join the MOTF to allow wound allocation in my favour. If they turbo bbost they get a 2+ and 3+ inv. Always nice. The sternguard will either hold my home obj and counter attack any infiltraters or deep striking dreadnoughts. or if needs be walk up the board to claim/contest obj.

[Marlow]

Since you are running Kantor I would take a 5-6 Man Sternguard Squad with Razorback over Devastators.

You can give them a pair of Plasma Cannons (or Las Cannons) and special ammo gives them 30" Bolters so they are great for holding the home objective.

[DarkGuard]

The Attack bike will either go on its own tank hunting or join the MOTF to allow wound allocation in my favour. If they turbo bbost they get a 2+ and 3+ inv. Always nice.

 

Actually you just get a 3+ cover save for both now, sorry.

 

As for the remaining points, most people here chose sternguard so im going to give them a run again with a 5 man team, LC and 2 combimeltas.

 

Good idea on the Sternguard, though I'd agree with Marlow and say it'd be better to run them with two lascannons or two plasma cannons. I'd leave the combi-weapons at home if your using them as an objective sitter.

[Gornall]

I might do Combiflamers on the SGV instead of the Combimeltas, that way you can dish out hits if anyone tries to rush them. However, if you're limited on points, then definately drop them altogether and just stick with the free super-bolter shots.

[brother theo]

personally i prefere to use devastator squad in a normal battle because it can unleash atorrent of fire and because normally enemy doesn'care about five marines behind a barricade! instead deploying a tank enemy artillery is attact by it! by!!!