palin2222 Posted June 18, 2009 Share Posted June 18, 2009 I've recently desided to give the 5th ed codex a try, as apposed to my Dark Angels norm, and I was looking at the thunderfire cannon as a heavy support choice. It seems like a pretty solid option, but there are some questions that I need anwsered before I deside to spend the money on getting the models. First, is that there doesn't seem to be a profile for the cannon itself, Is it just a weapon for the techmarine? Or does it follow the artillary rules? It says that the cannon fires Heavy 4. So does that mean I can lay down 4 compleltly seperate blast templates and roll scatter that way, or do I scatter them all from the same spot? Basically is it 4 seperate shots, or 1 shot with 4 blasts? Assume the techmarine gets killed, if I have another techmarine on the table, can he shoot the cannon? or is that cannon useless at that point? Sorry for the questions, but I'd really like to give this model a try, but I need to know how to use it before i actually add it to my list. Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hfran Morkai Posted June 18, 2009 Share Posted June 18, 2009 From what I understand you resolve the scatter individually for each blast, so long as it's on the same unit it's fine. If the techmarine is killed the weapon is considered destroyed. And it's a direct fire weapon so use it like you would a missile launcher. Hope this helped! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaz1858 Posted June 18, 2009 Share Posted June 18, 2009 No probs mate: 1. The cannon is treated as an artillery peice meaning armour 10 and any glancing or penetrating hit on it destroys it. You have to roll whether a shot hits the gun or gunner but the rules are in the rulebook for that. 2. 4 seperate shots 3. If the gunners killed the gun is removed to. Hope that helps Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gornall Posted June 21, 2009 Share Posted June 21, 2009 Dogpiling on this one... If I try and move the TFC through Difficult/Dangerous terrain and imobilize it, do I lose the cannon? It's not actually taking a hit, just the result. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greatcrusade08 Posted June 21, 2009 Share Posted June 21, 2009 If it takes any damage on the pen/glance table it is removced as a casualty, since being immobilised constitutes damage im sure it follows you remove it. GC08 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gornall Posted June 21, 2009 Share Posted June 21, 2009 If it takes any damage on the pen/glance table it is removced as a casualty, since being immobilised constitutes damage im sure it follows you remove it. GC08 Yeah... I don't know... from a pure RAW standpoint it doesn't say either way IMO. From the Artillery section: Any glancing or penetrating hit will destroy a gun... From the Terrain Effects section of vehicles: A result of 1 means that the vehicle halts immediately and suffers an Immobilised damage result, so if it was attempting to enter difficult terrain it stops just outside. The result is applied without suffering an actual glance/pen, so to me it wouldn't trigger the removal rule from the Artillery section. That's strictly RAW lawyering, however, and I could see an opponent having an issue with it. When it came up on Friday, we just diced off for it, but I'd like to have something more definitive one way or the other for next time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greatcrusade08 Posted June 21, 2009 Share Posted June 21, 2009 yeah i guess both are valid arguments, the dice off is always the best way if you cant agree.. Its one of those grey areas that will require a bit of sorting through.. Perhaps you will have more luck putting this up in the rules section.. Good luck GC08 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gornall Posted June 21, 2009 Share Posted June 21, 2009 yeah i guess both are valid arguments, the dice off is always the best way if you cant agree..Its one of those grey areas that will require a bit of sorting through.. Perhaps you will have more luck putting this up in the rules section.. Good luck GC08 Yup... going to start a topic there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty the Pyro Posted June 22, 2009 Share Posted June 22, 2009 Dogpiling on this one... If I try and move the TFC through Difficult/Dangerous terrain and imobilize it, do I lose the cannon? It's not actually taking a hit, just the result. The FAQ says it dies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShinyRhino Posted June 22, 2009 Share Posted June 22, 2009 First, is that there doesn't seem to be a profile for the cannon itself, Is it just a weapon for the techmarine? Or does it follow the artillary rules? Follows the artillery rules. It says that the cannon fires Heavy 4. So does that mean I can lay down 4 compleltly seperate blast templates and roll scatter that way, or do I scatter them all from the same spot? Basically is it 4 seperate shots, or 1 shot with 4 blasts? You pick ONE target model (as normal for a blast weapon). Roll four separate scatters, count the number of hits per template and per unit struck. Roll to wound. Note that Heavy 4 does NOT give it the opportunity to pick separate models in one or many units. That'd be like having a Heavy Bolter fire one shot at each of three units. Not happening. Assume the techmarine gets killed, if I have another techmarine on the table, can he shoot the cannon? or is that cannon useless at that point? The whole unit is removed, as per the artillery rules. No other Techmarine may man the gun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Isiah Posted June 23, 2009 Share Posted June 23, 2009 It says that the cannon fires Heavy 4. So does that mean I can lay down 4 compleltly seperate blast templates and roll scatter that way, or do I scatter them all from the same spot? Basically is it 4 seperate shots, or 1 shot with 4 blasts? You pick ONE target model (as normal for a blast weapon). Roll four separate scatters, count the number of hits per template and per unit struck. Roll to wound. Note that Heavy 4 does NOT give it the opportunity to pick separate models in one or many units. That'd be like having a Heavy Bolter fire one shot at each of three units. Not happening. No, each shot is determined quite separately as per p30 BRB. So place one marker, check for scatter, note casualties; place second marker, check for scatter, note casualties; (...rinse and repeat...). You are not restricted to firing all four markers at the exact same model in the unit – nowhere does it say this – but obviously all the target models must be in the same target unit. Cheers I Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty the Pyro Posted June 23, 2009 Share Posted June 23, 2009 It says that the cannon fires Heavy 4. So does that mean I can lay down 4 compleltly seperate blast templates and roll scatter that way, or do I scatter them all from the same spot? Basically is it 4 seperate shots, or 1 shot with 4 blasts? You pick ONE target model (as normal for a blast weapon). Roll four separate scatters, count the number of hits per template and per unit struck. Roll to wound. Note that Heavy 4 does NOT give it the opportunity to pick separate models in one or many units. That'd be like having a Heavy Bolter fire one shot at each of three units. Not happening. No, each shot is determined quite separately as per p30 BRB. So place one marker, check for scatter, note casualties; place second marker, check for scatter, note casualties; (...rinse and repeat...). You are not restricted to firing all four markers at the exact same model in the unit – nowhere does it say this – but obviously all the target models must be in the same target unit. Cheers I indeed, though it should be noted that you determine hits for each before rolling wounds/saves for all. a weapon with blast 2 is just like having two models with blast 1. You will normaly place them all at the same place as you will be trying to maximize your hits, the only reason i can think of to place the marks in diferent places would be if you were trying to scatter into different units. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ideaus Posted June 25, 2009 Share Posted June 25, 2009 you can also take servitors for the thunderfire, so when it gets hit you just remove seritor instead of your techmarine and it lasts longer. give them HB or PLASC and the rest with there servo arms (PF) and you also have a good defensive base for your cannon, palace it in sum ruins a then have them bolstered and you also get a 3+ cover save for teh whole unit, just a thought for you in your decision to take one, i take two every time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
River Black Posted June 25, 2009 Share Posted June 25, 2009 *edit* I misread the thunderfire profile and made an incorrect statement. Disregard this post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott-S6 Posted June 25, 2009 Share Posted June 25, 2009 No, each shot is determined quite separately as per p30 BRB. So place one marker, check for scatter, note casualties; place second marker, check for scatter, note casualties; (...rinse and repeat...). You are not restricted to firing all four markers at the exact same model in the unit – nowhere does it say this – but obviously all the target models must be in the same target unit. Cheers I The template has to be placed so that it hits the maximum number of models in the target unit. You won't often have any choice in where to place it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nighthawks Posted June 25, 2009 Share Posted June 25, 2009 you can also take servitors for the thunderfire, so when it gets hit you just remove seritor instead of your techmarine and it lasts longer. give them HB or PLASC and the rest with there servo arms (PF) and you also have a good defensive base for your cannon, palace it in sum ruins a then have them bolstered and you also get a 3+ cover save for teh whole unit, just a thought for you in your decision to take one, i take two every time. servitors may be taken for each techmarine in the list, including the TFC gunner, but they are not attached to the techmarine, they are an independent unit. the TM gunner from the TFC is not able to behave as an IC and join another unit until his cannon is destroyed. see BRB P55 for some details. as a result, the servitors may be placed by the TFC but are not ever its crew, so while they can help out in assault and maybe force cover saves for the artillery unit if positioned well, they cannot become ablative wounds for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ideaus Posted June 25, 2009 Share Posted June 25, 2009 but i thought that all the grey boxs in army list entry are a upgrade unit for a specfic model, eg command squad for a captain, but at the same time it does say a single techmarine under the thunderfire cannon crew Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bran Scalphunter Posted June 25, 2009 Share Posted June 25, 2009 Think of it this way: The TFC TM is "attached" to the cannon until it is destroyed. He can't voluntarily leave the cannon while it is still alive, but once it is destroyed, he can go around as an IC again, joining the Servitors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waaanial00 Posted June 25, 2009 Share Posted June 25, 2009 OK "interesting" thought just occured. You can join an IC to an Artillery unit can you not? I assume you can because I have seen Big Meks join Grot Artillery units. Assuming this to be true you can always join another Tech Marine onto the thunderfire and allocate wounds between the two. Not suggesting that the IC tech marine can become extra crew but it at least gives you some modicum of protection from losing the cannon due to a single cheap shot. Wan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bran Scalphunter Posted June 25, 2009 Share Posted June 25, 2009 I guess you could do that... So you could have two Servitor unitsfor quick unit joining and fire support. Expensive and most likely not worth the Elites choice, but hey, it's possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeattleDV8 Posted June 25, 2009 Share Posted June 25, 2009 The template has to be placed so that it hits the maximum number of models in the target unit. You won't often have any choice in where to place it. That is true for Template weapons (ie flamers), the TFC uses the blast marker. The blast marker may be placed anywhere in the targeted unit, over a base of course. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nighthawks Posted June 25, 2009 Share Posted June 25, 2009 OK "interesting" thought just occured. You can join an IC to an Artillery unit can you not? I assume you can because I have seen Big Meks join Grot Artillery units. Assuming this to be true you can always join another Tech Marine onto the thunderfire and allocate wounds between the two. Not suggesting that the IC tech marine can become extra crew but it at least gives you some modicum of protection from losing the cannon due to a single cheap shot. Wan ICs can join but are not crew and cannot fire the guns- like you said. it's on P.55 and servitors do not use up an elites slot - see the C:SM FAQ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty the Pyro Posted June 26, 2009 Share Posted June 26, 2009 small note, and I am not sure if its relivent or not, but the TFC does not come with a techmarine, it comes with a "techmarine gunner." well mostly the unit compisition says techmarine gunner, the stateline says techmarine. yay for lack of internal consistancy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nighthawks Posted June 26, 2009 Share Posted June 26, 2009 He's both - a techmarine, including all that that entails, and a gunner for the artillery piece, with all of the rules for that job as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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