exorcist or two land speeders with multi meltas?

[antique_nova]

exorcist or two land speeders with multi meltas?

an exorcist costs 135 points

where as the sm land speeder costs 60 points each with a multi melta, totally at 120 points

to add a second multi melta it costs another 20 points each.

am i also right that you can only have one allied fast attack choice?

because i am thinking of land speeders over exorcist and the speeders are backed up with two inquisitor squads with two servos with multi meltas and maybe a heavy bolter or naother multi melta depending on points cost.

i know speeders have low armour but every game that i have had, my opponent can't even shoot them, because i always take them off their bases and hide them out of LOS for one turn or two and then pop out and shoot the tank or lonely leader and they usually earn double their points and annihilate the enemies heavy fire support, which usually means end of game with my bt, but it could work with sisters of battle. what do you think?

thanks

antique_nova

[SJumppanen]

Well, for one thing. I wouldn't play with you at all if you take bases off.

 

Secondly, i wouldn't take servitors with MMs. HBs and maybe plasma canon, but not MM.

 

And yes, you can only take 0-1 FA choice. Personaly i would take both LS and EXO, possibly several EXOs.

 

Land speeders are a good idea, but you can't take them with Sisters of Battle.

[antique_nova]

can't you? i will check. i said i would usually take the bases off, lol but i was joking. i just use the really low stands that the gws gave me when i purchased the land speeders. i was like what the :) when i saw that the plastic stands were so small and long long like they were a long time ago.

thanks

antique_nova

[ValourousHeart]

As an avid Ravenwing player and a Witchhunter player, I may be able to offer some insite to your speeder question.

 

The best advice I have is don't take a single speeder, it is too easy to kill or neutralize.

If you want to add speeder support, max out on it.

Speeders in C:SM can have up to 3 in a unit... with 1 MM each that is 180 pts.

That is less than a decient Seraphim squad, and can perform the same basic role... tank hunting.

 

Since this is an element that you won't be able to support well, and these models will be wrecked if they suffer an immoblized result, the second MM is a waste of pts.

You also want these units moving as fast as possible, but with 2 MM each you will be tempted to go 6" just to shoot both guns.

 

But we have not counted the true cost of those speeders in this list...

To have 1 speeder in your WH list you will need the following:

1 =I= Lord & ret

2 IST

2 SM tact

 

That is about 350 pts using minimum squads and no upgrades just to get 1 speeder that can be shot down with a boltgun.

Consider also that you have spent more pts already on the SM component of your list than on the =I= side.

Why not just make a SM list... and if you want take WH allies.

That would give you full access to all of the units in the WH codex... except heavy support.

 

The only other way that you could make speeders in this list work is by using IA2.

Forgeworld offers this as a free download on thier web site.

I use it primarily because it give sisters cheaper rhinos.

But it also gives =I= Lords, =I= & IST access to Valkyries as dedicated transports.

There are a few basic differences between the IA2 Valk and the IG Valk... and it would need to be decided upon prior to the game which version you and they would prefer to play with/against.

Just to list a few of those differences:

 

IG = squadrons, door gunners optional, scout, deep strike

IA2 = dedicated transport, door gunners standard, flyer!!!

The IA2 version is more points for the same load out but the flyer rules make it a beast.

 

And with 3 or 8 Valkyries in your list, who would notice 2 or 3 little old land speeders.

[SJumppanen]

Just a thought, if you must have another weapon in LS, then take a Heavy Flamer.

[Aidoneus]

For +10pts each, the HF adds versatility, surprisingly effect power vs. hordes, and (importantly) it means your opponent needs to score a second Weapon Destroyed result before those turn into Immobilized results. This means for 10pts per model you gain 1) flexibility, 2) offense, and 3) defense. As far as I know, that's about every benefit you could ask for.

 

As has been said, you cannot take allied Space Marines in a Witch Hunters list if Sisters are present, nor can you ally Witch Hunter heavy support into a Space Marine (or Daemonhunters) army. So there is no conceivable way, outside of Apocalypse, to take both Land Speeders and Exorcists.

 

For what it's worth, I think both are excellent options, and both have their place. The Exorcists have long range, good armour, and more S8 AP1 shots, whereas the Land Speeders have speed, deep-strike, numbers, and the heavy flamers. So just decide whether you want Sisters or Spacies, and then take whichever option you're allowed.

[Eddie Orlock]

... So there is no conceivable way, outside of Apocalypse, to take both Land Speeders and Exorcists. ...

Historical foot note here, once upon a time, before the advent of apocalypse, in large games i.e. >2500 points, the rules contained a provision about fielding multiple detachments. Under those conditions one could have had a Witchhunter detachment and a Marine detachment allowing the above unit combination to be fielded. It was also the provision that allowed super heavy vehicles, as they were put on their own special org charts and called separate detachments. I'd had cause to invoke those rules less than a half-dozen times, but they were there.

[SJumppanen]

So there is no conceivable way, outside of Apocalypse, to take both Land Speeders and Exorcists.

 

Actualy, in one version of FAQ it was mentioned that EXO isn't SoB unit in that purppose.

[antique_nova]

i need two squads of ist to take it? that sucks, i just wanted to know if i could add some speed and quick hard firepower from the ls as i had good experience with them. as for them being shot donw. i don't really care about that because my opponent will never see them, until i want them to be seen or i see a chance to pop a character/vehicle.

thanks

antique_nova

[Chengar Qordath]

i need two squads of ist to take it?

Not exactly; since you can't take any Adepta Sororitas units if you want to induct in Space Marines, Inquisitorial Storm Troopers are the only option for your minimum two squads of troops since Inducted troops can't fill those positions.

[tilindir]

So there is no conceivable way, outside of Apocalypse, to take both Land Speeders and Exorcists.

 

Bull:cuss.

 

Special rule "Allied SM". "Allied SM may not be used if any Adepta Sororitas units are present in the WH force".

 

Special rule "Adepta Sororitas". "...refers to following units: AS Heroine, Celestians, Battle Sisters Squads, Seraphim, Dominions & Retributors".

 

No mention 'bout Immolator ot Exorcist. But on HS page you can read that "Immolators may only be chosen if AS are part of the force". Nuff said 'bout Exorcist, therefore you may freely join SM (& Land Speeders up to 3 squadrons) to your inquisitorial WH force with 3 Exorcists (don't forget 'bout 1 compulsory Lord Inquisitor & 2 compulsory ISTs since you have no other choice). Rather kicking ass, I would say.

[Melissia]

And here is where it is confusing.

 

That a unit lacks the special rule, "Adepta Sororitas". does not necessarilly mean that they aren't a part of the Adepta Sororitas-- the Exorcist in C:WH is referred to (by IA and WD articles) on and off as an "Adepta Sororitas Exorcist", much liike the Rhino and Immolator. Sometimes they are simply referred to by their names, other times they have "Adepta Sororitas" as a descriptor.

[Chengar Qordath]

And here is where it is confusing.

 

That a unit lacks the special rule, "Adepta Sororitas". does not necessarilly mean that they aren't a part of the Adepta Sororitas-- the Exorcist in C:WH is referred to (by IA and WD articles) on and off as an "Adepta Sororitas Exorcist", much liike the Rhino and Immolator. Sometimes they are simply referred to by their names, other times they have "Adepta Sororitas" as a descriptor.

Yeah, for me there's enough of a grey area that you'll probably end up having to argue about it every single time you try to field your army (and there's no guarantee you would win). RAW-wise there's room for interpretation either way, but arguing that an Exorcist isn't a Sisters of Battle unit when it's being piloted by a battlesister and covered in symbols of the Adepta Sororitas seems counter-intuitive. As a general rule, I try to avoid building lists that I can't play without engaging every single opponent in a rules arguement.

[Eddie Orlock]

... the Exorcist in C:WH is referred to (by IA and WD articles) on and off as an "Adepta Sororitas Exorcist", much liike the Rhino and Immolator. ...

Fluff from a non-codice source is a terrible basis for a ruling.

 

Further, from a fluff stand point, the ambiguity suggests that there are both Sororita and non-Sororita Exorcists. Thus a force with Mechanicus Exorcists in the presence of Marine 'Speeders is cool.

 

The same 'Never say Never' s that irritatingly give rise to battle sister band-blades also make allowances for non-Sororita missile tanks.

[Melissia]

There's no real ambiguity in my eyes. Only the label is ambiguous, and that only matters from a RAW perspective. Given the fluff about it and the descriptions of it along with its default appearance and so on, there is absolutely no ambiguity that the Exorcist is in fact an Adepta Sororitas tank from a purely fluff standpoint.

 

Edit: GW refers to it on its website as a Sisters of Battle Exorcist too, actually.

 

This set contains 1 multi-part plastic Sisters of Battle Immolator and includes the metal components needed to make the Sisters of Battle Exorcist.

[Sister Rosette Soulknyt]

I agree, so please dont try to make a grey area even more shaded.

The Excorsist is a SoB tank, what more do you need to read into it? Read its description if you like its only usable by the Adepta Sororitas, no one else, not even the Mechanicus.

 

So because it looks cool, is a dangerous tank dont try to justify that other armies have access to it, please dont tell me anyone else thinks eg; my SM should use one, or IG can have one too.

Thats like saying hey, my SoB army i use suddenly can have Thunderhawks, or Redeemers, or Basilisks.

 

Come sensibility please.....

Just like the Immolator, Excorsit and othr strictly WH vehicles shouldnt even be considered useable in other armies.

[Eddie Orlock]

Edit: GW refers to it on its website as a Sisters of Battle Exorcist too, actually.

Sales materials are notorious for being misleading, nothing in the functional spec that is the codex actually indicates that it is Sororita only. Merely that the model is thematically appropriate for those forces.

 

There is no grey area, there is more of a grey area when it comes to characters leaving and joining the same unit in the same movement phase than there is in this.

[Melissia]

There is no grey area

Correct, there is no grey area-- the Exorcist is a Sisters of Battle tank.

[Eddie Orlock]

Correct, there is no grey area-- the Exorcist is a Sisters of Battle tank.

You appear to be inferring conclusions not supported by the source material.

 

While there is fluff to support the stance that there are Sororita manned Exorcists, the rules do not mandate this. Nor, and this is typical of most background in the forty-first millennium, is the fluff rigorous and comprehensive in denying the existence of non-sororita Exorcists.

 

I could suggest that any armoured vehicle known to the Imperium in any form of massed production has been subjected to 'spot tests' and 'proving trials' within Mechanicus Exploritor forces. This would be both consistent with the setting and functionally impossible to be refuted.

 

While a challenge may be thrown to place the issuer of the assertion under the burden of proof to support the statement, any statement of this ilk, suggesting that the background of the setting is permissive in what may be modelled, and not prohibitive, casts a certain hypocritical pall over a great many other works I've observed in this forum by people posting in this thread.

 

[/causidicus diabolus]

[Melissia]

You appear to be inferring conclusions not supported by the source material.

You appear to be intentionally limiting what you consider to be source material without any real reason except that it makes your position a bit weaker.

 

Unless it directly contradicts the codex-- which it does not, by the way-- other pieces of fluff from GW are acceptable. In this case, Imperial Armour, White Dwarf, and the GW website all label it as a "Sisters of Battle Exorcist" and thus it is rather clear that this is the intention of it to do so. In RAW, it's a bit more of a grey area-- if you want to use the IA version it most assuredly is a Sisters of Battle vehicle, but you could argue by RAW that the C:WH version is not. And you'd have to argue by RAW if you wanted to try and get that by me, and there's no guarentee your argument would work.

 

Actually there's little possibility unless I'm feeling nice.

[Eddie Orlock]

... other pieces of fluff from GW are acceptable. In this case, Imperial Armour, White Dwarf, and the GW website all label it as a "Sisters of Battle Exorcist" and thus it is rather clear that this is the intention of it to do so. In RAW, it's a bit more of a grey area-- ...

Ahem. In the fluff, fair lady, one can do damn near anything.

 

This, however, is a question of army list validity, and in those, fluff is inadmissible.

 

In neither the latest revision of the IA2 entries, nor the codice itself, is it expressly called out as being associated with battle sisters. There are no printed requirements to have any sororita elements present in a list prior to their selection. There are passages in the detailed fluff descriptions of the hardbacked book currently open on my desk that expressly list it as employed and crewed by combat nuns, but we all know that fluff is mutable and changes with time. Further, the crew listing has been repealed in the latest version of the entry. Considerable reference is made to most of these being property of the Ministorum, not of any specific order. All that is required is a vaguely Ecclesiarchically sponsored cause reflected in using a witch-hunter org-chart to begin with.

 

For the most recent version of the Imperial Armour entry, in which you'll find the concrete association with battle sister has been removed, you may look here. You'll be interested in page 15 of 16.

 

Thus, my radical and his men-at-arms personal retainers are free to enlist the units support in their deviant campaigns without any pesky sisters spoiling their witch burning good times. If your battle sisters wish to take it up with my radicals in character you'ld be best advised to show up at the box some fine Saturday when the esteemed Mr. Kuster next decides to host an event. :angry:

 

For now I shall close with a reference to the Imperial Guard Baneblade. Consistantly referanced in sales literature as the Imperial Guard Baneblade. Not that this ever seems to stop people. :teehee:

[Tom James]

In neither the latest revision of the IA2 entries, nor the codice itself, is it expressly called out as being associated with battle sisters.

 

Actually, in my codex the entry for the Exorcist does explicitly say "Crew: Battle Sisters" - it's near the bottom of page 36.

It's in black and white, no grey area at all. I think that the explicit statement that the crew members are Battle Sisters is enough to disqualify the use of the Exorcist in an army that includes Space Marines of any sort.

[ValourousHeart]

I don't think that the crew of the exorcist is in questions.

The question is "Are you able to field an Exorcist without SoB in the army?"

The answer to that is YES... simply because the codex does not say NO.

 

For justification we simply have to look at other entries in the same codex.

Immolator entry - clearly states that it may not be fielded if no SoB units taken.

Assassins & Orbital Strike - =I= must be taken in order to field these units.

Arco & Penitent Engines - priest must be taken...

 

There is not such restriction on the Exorcist, so despite the fact they are crewed by sisters, an =I= can call on them to support his other forces.

That seems appropriate considering how much authority =I= are supposed to have.

 

It is amazing that we even have to justify using units from our own codex.

Tell me one other army or codex that would cause this type of infighting.

[Chengar Qordath]

I don't think that the crew of the exorcist is in questions.

The question is "Are you able to field an Exorcist without SoB in the army?"

Actually that's not the question that's being debated. The current debate centers on whether or not the Exorcist itself is a Sisters of Battle unit.

[antique_nova]

getting abit out of topic? but my head hurts too much to care whether the exorcist is a sob or not, you think i need to change the title of this thread? because the mods will catch up on it soon.

thanks

antique_nova