Librarian Hood and Eldar Tricks

[Rythlan]

So,

 

If I have a librarian with a hood in my Rhino, and another psycher is attempting to use a power, does the hood work? From where do I measure since I can't measure from the model?

 

On the same scheme, if my eldar opponent has a farseer in a wave serpent with those damn stones, do they work? (I think those have a bit of a different wording, but I am not positive if they include "on the table" or "in your army").

 

Thanks!

[angry man]

models in a transport count as being 'on the table'. be it librarians, farseers, old school apothecaries, banner bearers or whatever. the range is measured from the hull of the tank. i dont currently have a BRB ref to back this up but im 97% certain this is how it works

 

AM

[Rythlan]

Well that cleared that up pretty quick.

[Frosty the Pyro]

models in a transport count as being 'on the table'. be it librarians, farseers, old school apothecaries, banner bearers or whatever. the range is measured from the hull of the tank. i dont currently have a BRB ref to back this up but im 97% certain this is how it works

 

AM

 

indeed. It should be noted however that if the power being used is a shooting attack the vehicle needs a fireing point and the fireing point is used up just as if he was shooting a gun. I'm not positive but I think it also aplies to powers non shooting powers that require LOS

[Gaz1858]

The psychic hood will work fine measuring 24" from the hull of the tank. If the eldar psyker is within this range the attempt to cancel can be made. Line of site is not needed and as it is done in the enemys turn is irrelevant anyway as none of your guys will be using the two fire points.

[DevianID]

Be careful with this one, guys. Models in a transport, per the rules, are removed from the table. Also, you only measure range from the hull of a vehicle if you need to because of a special rule, not just because you want to or you feel like it.

 

If you have a special rule that is allowed to be used from a vehicle, such as how guard commanders can issue special orders from a chimera (as it has the special rule mobile command center), that does not mean you can issue orders from a land raider by just measuring from the hull. There are lots of examples of wargear and special rules, both from 5th edition and from 4th edition, that can specificly be used in a vehicle. Without permission, though, these special rules and wargear would not work from vehicles.

 

So if you have a special rule that lets you do something (psychic hood, IG orders, SM teleport homer, chaos icon) if there isnt a rule allowing you to use it in a vehicle, then you cant use it in a vehicle.

 

That being said, everyone seems to forget this (myself included) and people play that you can use any special rule you want and do anything you want other than shoot a weapon from a vehicle with no fire points. Just because everyone is doing it, though, does not mean that it is correct--an important distinction on the official rules forum I believe.

[SeattleDV8]

You never finish the rules quote DevianID.

BRB pg. 66. "When the unit embarks, it is removed from the table and placed aside, making a note or otherwise marking that the unit is is being transported (..........). If the players need to measure a range involving the embarked unit (....), this range is measured to or from the vehicles hull."

The unit's models may be removed but the unit is very much on the table.

We may only effect the unit embarked indirectly. The unit it's self may fire ,use psychic powers, hold objectives and many other effects.

I find the idea that the unit is not "on the table" when out with 4th Ed.

[Grey Mage]

Runes of Warding are table wide... you need not check for range or LOS with them, so yes they work inside eldar vehicles *wich incidentally dont have any firepoints*.

[DevianID]

You never finish the rules quote DevianID.

BRB pg. 66. "When the unit embarks, it is removed from the table and placed aside, making a note or otherwise marking that the unit is is being transported (..........). If the players need to measure a range involving the embarked unit (....), this range is measured to or from the vehicles hull."

 

Again, this is why I prefaced my comments with a caution. The fact that a unit is being transported and you noted which transport is carrying the unit does not change the fact that the unit is still removed from the table. Example of what happens when you dont follow the rule detailing that the squad is removed:

'My tau smart missiles do not need LOS to shoot a target. Because we play that units embarked in a transport count as being on the table, I am going to shoot them while they are in the transport. Because I want to shoot at the embarked unit, I will simple measure range to the vehicle's hull, as the BRB says I can.'

 

As you can see, if you choose to ignore the rule about removing the models from the table, it opens up a can of worms, which also includes things like having Pedro Kantor's +1 attack bubble work while he is inside a land raider, despite him not being on the table.

 

The rules are permissive. They give you permission to do things. You are given permission to use psychic powers in a vehicle, you are given permission to shoot weapons from a fire point, you are given permission capture an objective inside a vehicle, and to use wargear/special rules in a vehicle, you also need a specific permission--read chaos icons and ork kustom force fields.

 

If you want, read the special rule for chimera's. It says that officers can issue orders inside a chimera. If we were playing by your interpretation, then guard could issue orders from any vehicle, they wouldnt need permission; they would just measure range from the vehicles hull.

 

Runes of Warding are table wide... you need not check for range or LOS with them, so yes they work inside eldar vehicles *wich incidentally dont have any firepoints*.

 

Can they be used while the farseer is off the table, in reserve?

 

Again, (as always), I am not saying you have to play this way. I dont even play this way. But, thems the rules lads... you need a special rule to do something inside a vehicle!

[SeattleDV8]

There are rules limiting what effects embarked units.

Embarked units may not be targeted by shooting or external psychic powers.

The rule only has you remove the models, Not the unit.

The unit is embarked and still on the table, not in reserve.

I believe Pedro Cantors rule would work just like the Orks KFF works.;

[Banville]

I agree. Plus a unit can fire from rhino's top hatch and a Librarian according to the FAQ can use his powers whilst embarked, etc etc.

[Master Of Malfeasance X]

Sorry, man. A squad that is removed from the table is removed from the table. Period. No psychic hoods, no runes of lameness. In the case of the Eldar, they may use psychic powers from a vehicles with no fire points, but neither set of runes is a psychic power. I love forcing a farseer into a tank as I can lash his squads around with impunity from my fire points which I am allowed to do because the rules say I can.

[Grey Mage]

[

Runes of Warding are table wide... you need not check for range or LOS with them, so yes they work inside eldar vehicles *wich incidentally dont have any firepoints*.

 

Can they be used while the farseer is off the table, in reserve?

 

Again, (as always), I am not saying you have to play this way. I dont even play this way. But, thems the rules lads... you need a special rule to do something inside a vehicle!

 

Runes of Warding: A Farseer can use Runes of Warding to throw up psychic interference to hinder his foe. All enemy Psychic Tests must be taken on 3d6, suffering a Perils of the Warp attack on any roll of 12 or above.

I normally play that its if the model is on the table- but thats interpretted as not in reserves and part of your army with my play group.

 

Now, as for transports- your example of Tau Missiles doesnt work- the model has to be visible to be targetted by a markerlight and thus must be outside a transport... no markerlight, no missile.

 

Blast Templates similarly ignore the units inside a transport- no bases to touch, no damage done. So Ordnance Barrage is unable to affect it. Flamer templates and blast weapons suffer the same problem- no bases to cover, no damage.

 

I cant think of a single time you could actually try to hit a model inside a transport like that, regardless if you have LOS to the tank or not.

[chapter master 454]

I think some people are getting too RAW. The word 'removed' is a bad choice by the designers, the model is simply put aside to make gaming easier, because you could try and fit all the models in the tank if you want but I am not held responible for anyone trying this. unless a model is KILLED (or wounded to the point of being unable) then they are removed from the game and not put aside (which aside means put somewhere else for the time being, being removed means it doesn't come back) therefor if the libby is dead then no powers, if the farseer is dead no wards, if they are in tanks then as long as the power is not shooting then the player may use the powers the phyker has.

 

In short yes you can, no doubts can be cast about it (no pun intended) and thus as long as it isn't a shooting attack and requires the model to be on table (which technically it is, it is metaphorically in the tank) then it can be used with all the normal limitations and such. like if you get perils of the warp then you take a wound as normal and all the men inside the tank clean off all brown and grey matter from the inside of the tank.

[Agrab]

Here is my question, does it anywhere, in either the BRB or the FAQs, say that models in transports count as being on the table. If not, then they are not and can not use their abilities short of normal exceptions LISTED specifically in the codex. Additionally, even if they were, you can not fire a psycic test out of a firing point unless it says you can.

[Seahawk]

Here is my question, does it anywhere, in either the BRB or the FAQs, say that models in transports count as being on the table. If not, then they are not and can not use their abilities short of normal exceptions LISTED specifically in the codex. Additionally, even if they were, you can not fire a psycic test out of a firing point unless it says you can.

 

Page 66 might help you out there, where it describes transport vehicles. It says a variety of things: You may have a model from that squad on the vehicle itself; thus it's still "on the table." You may shoot guns out of fire points, you may shoot psychic powers out of fire points. Ranges and LOS are measured from the firepoint (where the individual would be shooting from, if he could fit). On page 90 units that are in transports (and the transport is on the table, ergo...) can capture objectives.

 

Here's a good one: "If the players need to measure a range involving the embarked unit (except for its shooting), this range is measured to or from the vehicle's hull." Now obviously transported units can do things in transports that don't involve shooting. Such a thing could be psychic hooding 24" from the hull of the tank, as RAW says, or using mystics, etc.

 

I honestly don't see a place in the rulebook that says the unit magically gives/takes no more effect on the tabletop once they're embarked. I see lines saying they're being transported by the unit on the table and thus are still on it.

[nighthawks]

The on the table / off the table in a transport argument has more to do with 4th ed. paradigms persisting into 5th than it does with a clean-slate reading of the 5th ed. BRB. any time you need to measure area effect from a unit in a transport, you use the hull of the transport instead. it's on P.66 in the Embarking rules:

 

If the players need to measure a range involving the embarked unit (except for shooting), this range is measured to or from the vehicle's hull.

 

shooting from a vehicle is cover on the same page under "fire points" and is pretty well explained.

 

rules like command vehicle for the IG Chimera are because the orders rule disallows its use in transports, generally. This clarification supports the argument that rules such as "orders" would generally be allowed while embarked, measured as described above. thus the restriction is specific to over-ride the general allowance - range is measured to the vehicle when embarked, and the models still "count as on the table" as there is no statement that they do not...

 

NOT ON THE TABLE, should you wish to use the term, would include reserves, the dead, and models not in the army list.

[rat of vengence]

Sorry, man. A squad that is removed from the table is removed from the table. Period. No psychic hoods, no runes of lameness. In the case of the Eldar, they may use psychic powers from a vehicles with no fire points, but neither set of runes is a psychic power. I love forcing a farseer into a tank as I can lash his squads around with impunity from my fire points which I am allowed to do because the rules say I can.

 

 

As Seahawk said;

 

 

"If the players need to measure a range involving the embarked unit (except for its shooting), this range is measured to or from the vehicle's hull."

 

Since this specifically says things other than shooting can be done from inside a vehicle, and doesn't mention firing points, I suggest you need to apologise to your Eldar opponents :wacko:

 

RoV

[DevianID]

rules like command vehicle for the IG Chimera are because the orders rule disallows its use in transports, generally.

 

Actually, I see nothing in the orders rule that says you cant do it in a transport... unless I missed it somewhere? Thus, the IG orders would support my position... unless a direct quote can prove otherwise. Sadly i'm at work, so I have to ask if someone can look it up for us.

[Seahawk]

Orders, pg 29: "An officer may attempt to issue orders provided he is not locked in assault, embarked in a transport vehicle..."

 

Chimera, pg 39: "An officer embarked within a Chimera may still issue orders to squads. Measure range and los from any point on the Chimera's hull."

 

So the first rule is an exception to the type of things you can do while embarked. The second is an exception to that exception.

[Grey Mage]

NOT ON THE TABLE, should you wish to use the term, would include reserves, the dead, and models not in the army list.

Indeed, otherwise such models as Kantor could still use their aura rules after taking all of their wounds. After all it says single wound models are removed from the table as casualties, multiwound models are only partially covered farther down as being "no longer fit for battle". So he could remain physically present on the battle but unable to do anything.... and give everyone +1 A.

 

We all know that doesnt work eh? Even if you dont have to remove him from the table physically.

[Banville]

I honestly don't see how this is still going round and round. The FAQ on psychic powers, specifically the use of Force Dome, allows you to Force Dome the Libby and his unit whilst inside a transport. When they pop out they have 5++. How is this congruent with the argument that they are "off the table" and so cannot use powers? How can a unit shoot out of a transport if they are "off the table".

 

When a model loses all his wounds he is "removed as a casualty" according to the BRB so when Kantor dies, so does his +1A. This is different to being "removed from the table and placed aside" as when a unit embarks in a transport. It actually states that if you need to measure ranges involving the embarked unit do so from the hull. Surely this all adds up to the conclusion that the unit is still in play and on the table but is invisible inside its transport. In this way it is quite possible for Kantor to be sitting in a raider or rhino and give his +1A to people.

 

I think Seahawk has pretty much put this topic to bed, IMHO.

[Isiah]

I agree.

 

There is no longer a rule for what's "off the table" or what's "on the table" - that disappeared in 4th ed. What we have is permissive rules for what units/characters can and can't do when in transports.

 

The only units/items considered "off the table" for gaming purposes are the dead or those in reserve yet to come in. Units in transports are "removed from the table" because, well, what else is one supposed to do with them?? (OK you can place a model on the transport's roof to remind you what's in it).

 

But in terms of gameplay the unit is still very much in the game - just invisible in its transport.

 

Cheers

I

[DevianID]

Just to play devil's advocate... IG orders can not be issued in a vehicle that is not a chimera--say a Valkyrie. However, we are saying Iron Hand Straken's bubble effect of furious assault and counterattack will work in a Valkyrie? And no one sees an issue but me?

 

Also, the codex rules for Pedro Kantor says that all models within 12 inches of Pedro Kantor get +1 attack. Codex over rules rulebook, and the codex rule says to measure from Pedro Kantor specificly.

 

Finally, the section where it says 'If the players need to measure', and I underline need, does not give permission in a permissive rules set. Its like saying 'if you need to pay a bill, you can pay online.' How do you know if you need to do something, such as pay a bill or measure from a vehicle? You need to have a reason, such as the bill collector sending you a request to pay, or the rules telling you to use an ability from the vehicle.

 

The section 'if you need to measure range' is just a rule telling you how to measure range under the specific condition that you have an ability in a vehicle you need to use. Just like how the rules for shooting tell you how to measuer range when shooting. You still need permission to perform the action, regardless of having the rules required to measure range.

 

IE, when you move, you can not fire a heavy weapon. However, the rules for how to measure range from a heavy weapon have not changed--but despite still having rules for how a shooting model measures range, you need more than measurement rules to use an ability.

 

The same is true with abilities and vehicles. Just because we have rules for measuring range for abilities being used in vehicles, does not mean that all abilities can be used from a vehicles. The other rules must first provide a 'need.'

 

The FAQ on psychic powers, specifically the use of Force Dome, allows you to Force Dome the Libby and his unit whilst inside a transport

As an aside, this kind of proves my point. They needed a FAQ to allow force dome to be used. Where is the FAQ allowing pedro's bubble effect to work in a vehicle?

[SeattleDV8]

The FAQ on psychic powers, specifically the use of Force Dome, allows you to Force Dome the Libby and his unit whilst inside a transport

As an aside, this kind of proves my point. They needed a FAQ to allow force dome to be used. Where is the FAQ allowing pedro's bubble effect to work in a vehicle?

Quite the opposite.

The FAQ states "Q. Can Psychic powers be used on a unit

embarked on a transport?

A. For simplicity’s sake, the answer has to be a

firm ‘No, unless the psyker himself is in the unit

being transported’."

this is not permission but rather a restriction on psychic powers.

Or to put it another way,The unit should be effected but the problems inherent with that are too much trouble.

Look to the Ork's KFF or Chaos' Icons for similar rules.

There are many other special rules that still work while embarked.