Librarian Hood and Eldar Tricks

[Master Of Malfeasance X]

Yes, but they are all listed. Every exception to models being removed from the table because they are in transports is listed. For the same reasons that plasma weapons don't cook off in vehicles, models in vehicles cannot affect the table except in very specific ways and only in ways that are permissively listed. If a psychic hood or runes of witnessing or runes of warding could be used from a vehicle, the rules for those items would say they could be used from vehicles, just like it says that Farseers can use psychic powers from inside closed environment vehicles and it says that librarians can use forcedome on their comrades inside vehicles.

 

Since it doesn't say specifically anywhere that you may use these pieces of wargear from a vehicle, and your unit is, per the book, OFF THE TABLE, then trying to use them is wrong. Anyone who tries otherwise is cheating.

[Banville]

Plasma weapons do overheat in vehicles. They don't overheat when they are on a vehicle. The exact rule for using a unit whilst embarked is that you measure from the vehicle's hull. Now this is where GW's wording, for once, is actually quite tight. It makes no mention of "the model" as the model is physically not there anymore, it specifically refers to "the unit" which is embarked and is still in play. Therefore, if Kantor's rule states you must measure from his "model" then no, you cannot use his +1A if he is in a 'Raider, I'll concede that.

 

Looking at it from a different perspective if one pops a tank and it explodes why should you bother taking hits on the models inside it since they are off the table and cannot be affected by or have an effect on the events "on table". You take hits because the unit is in play and can therefore contribute to the action as permitted by the rules on pg 66.

 

DevianID - your reading of the relevant rule stopped just before you reached the parenthesis "(except shooting)". The rule for units operating out of vehicles reads, in full, "If the players need to measure a range involving the embarked unit (except shooting), this range is measured to or from the vehicles hull"

 

This "permissively" allows the use of abilities other than shooting to take place from inside a vehicle. The fact that it allows the other player to measure to the hull seems to indicate that a psyker sitting in one vehicle can be psychic-hooded by a psyker sitting in another as long as both vehicles are close enough.

 

I feel this obsession with being on or off the table is a hangover from 4th Edition, just like people's insistence that a unit "gets its points back". Some of the game mechanics have been subtly but substantially altered, mostly for the better in my opinion.

[Grey Mage]

Yes, but they are all listed. Every exception to models being removed from the table because they are in transports is listed. For the same reasons that plasma weapons don't cook off in vehicles, models in vehicles cannot affect the table except in very specific ways and only in ways that are permissively listed. If a psychic hood or runes of witnessing or runes of warding could be used from a vehicle, the rules for those items would say they could be used from vehicles, just like it says that Farseers can use psychic powers from inside closed environment vehicles and it says that librarians can use forcedome on their comrades inside vehicles.

 

Since it doesn't say specifically anywhere that you may use these pieces of wargear from a vehicle, and your unit is, per the book, OFF THE TABLE, then trying to use them is wrong. Anyone who tries otherwise is cheating.

Actually MOMX it doesnt say anything about eldar being able to do their psychic powers in a vehicle- its just that most of them *the non-shooting ones* are listed as "within X" of the farseer". Nothing is mentioned of LOS so it is ignored.

 

I really think your over thinking it a bit much. And please dont call me a cheater, no one has done that over these rules yet, its actually the most often used interpretation.

[Cale]

So, here's a point:

 

If an embarked unit is on the table, then it can be fired upon, at least by weapons which do not need line-of-sight. I can only think of one, off the top of my head, and that is the Tau Smart Missile Launcher, but you would have to admit that if they count as being on the table in general, then, in the absence of a rule which prevents them from being fired upon, they should be able to be.

[Grey Mage]

So, here's a point:

 

If an embarked unit is on the table, then it can be fired upon, at least by weapons which do not need line-of-sight. I can only think of one, off the top of my head, and that is the Tau Smart Missile Launcher, but you would have to admit that if they count as being on the table in general, then, in the absence of a rule which prevents them from being fired upon, they should be able to be.

The Tau missiles cannot hit a unit that cannot be seen- because you have to tag it with a markerlight first and markerlights require LOS.

[Seahawk]

your unit is, per the book, OFF THE TABLE, then trying to use them is wrong. Anyone who tries otherwise is cheating.

 

models in vehicles cannot affect the table except in very specific ways

Actually MOMX, by the book the unit is IN THE TRANSPORT, not off the table. The models are off for convenience, but may still be placed on top of the transport, again on the table. Also, those very specific ways are all actually very normal ways, such as moving, shooting, psychic shooting, and capturing objectives, just like any other unit that's not in a transport. The only limiter is that only a couple models will get LOS to their target...just like a unit that gets blocked by terrain.

 

Here's another one: a model cannot under any circumstances move off the table. If embarking meant going off the table as some people think, then you could never be in a transport. Silly, no?

 

Another line from the FAQ: a transported unit temporarily co-exists with the transport, so they are essentially one model representing two units.

 

Cale: I didn't even realize they took that out. Interesting that they included the rules for not shooting units in the buildings (which use the transport vehicle rules) section but not in the actual transport vehicles section.

[Cale]

So, here's a point:

 

If an embarked unit is on the table, then it can be fired upon, at least by weapons which do not need line-of-sight. I can only think of one, off the top of my head, and that is the Tau Smart Missile Launcher, but you would have to admit that if they count as being on the table in general, then, in the absence of a rule which prevents them from being fired upon, they should be able to be.

The Tau missiles cannot hit a unit that cannot be seen- because you have to tag it with a markerlight first and markerlights require LOS.

 

 

You're thinking of Seeker Missiles. I'm talking about Smart Missile Systems which are just regular ole' guns with 24" inches of range that can fire without LOS. They don't require Markerlight hits or anything.

 

I did notice earlier where someone mentioned seeker missiles and someone else mentioned that seeker missiles required markerlight hits--it's why I posted this, actually, since smart missile systems don't require markerlight hits.

 

So, nice try, but you're going to have to do better than that.

[Isiah]

So, here's a point:

 

If an embarked unit is on the table, then it can be fired upon, at least by weapons which do not need line-of-sight. I can only think of one, off the top of my head, and that is the Tau Smart Missile Launcher, but you would have to admit that if they count as being on the table in general, then, in the absence of a rule which prevents them from being fired upon, they should be able to be.

 

[...] I'm talking about Smart Missile Systems which are just regular ole' guns with 24" inches of range that can fire without LOS. They don't require Markerlight hits or anything.

 

I did notice earlier where someone mentioned seeker missiles and someone else mentioned that seeker missiles required markerlight hits--it's why I posted this, actually, since smart missile systems don't require markerlight hits.

 

So, nice try, but you're going to have to do better than that.

 

I don't understand the issue here. Can I ask the fairly obvious question as to how the Smart Missile intends to reach the embarked unit without first hitting their transport? As far as I'm aware fire points are specifically for facilitating firing outwards – there is no capability to fire through them inwards to hit what's inside. LOS doesn't actually come into it as you can't actually target the embarked unit directly as you can't get to them. Or do you think you can by any weapon that doesn't require LOS? That really is stretching it isn't it?

 

As an example as to why not, gamewise, troops occupying buildings (p79 BRB) who are also interestingly "removed from the table", are we are told treated exactly as troops in transports whereby you can only damage the troops by shooting/assaulting the building they are in.

 

"Units may shoot at or assault an occupied building just as if it was a vehicle. Units inside a building may not be attacked directly, but will be effected in the same manner as units inside a transport vehicle should the building be damaged and so may suffer damage and/or be forced to disemabrk".

 

So units in transports cannot be directly targeted from outside [unless a speical rule says you can] - neither can units in buildings. LOS is not the issue, neither is being on the table. The issue is of the embarked unit being "in" something (a vehicle/building).

[Cale]

An interesting, but ultimately irrelevant observation. The fact that "units inside a building may not be attacked directly, but will be affected in the same manner as units inside a transport vehicle should the building be damaged," (page 79, BRB) does not, in any way, indicate that units inside a transport cannot be fired upon. Though they are similar, buildings are not transports and transports are not buildings. Rules for one do not necessarily apply to the other.

 

Ultimately, there is no rule which indicates that a unit inside a transport cannot be fired upon. It does not show up in the rules for transports, nor in the rules for shooting. The rules for shooting, for example, say:

 

"A firing unit can choose a single enemy unit that is not locked in combat as its target, and may not split its fire among different targets. In order to select an enemy unit as a target, at least one model in the firing unit must have line of sight to at least one model in the target unit."

 

That's really all the rules have to say about selecting a target for ranged attacks (and the second part is clearly ignored by the stipulation in the Tau codex which states that the SMS can be fired without line of sight). According to these rules, a unit in a transport is clearly fair game. The only reason you could really pose for suggesting otherwise is noting that the embarked unit isn't actually on the table at all--and that rationale has effectively been tossed by the majority of posters in this thread.

 

It doesn't say anything about transports or embarked units.

 

All you've done is point out that there is a rule which specifically states that units inside buildings cannot be "attacked directly." Though buildings are similar to vehicles in many ways, however, they are not the same--and the fact that there is such a rule for buildings neither requires nor suggests that we should imagine a similar rule into place for vehicles. To do so would simply be cheating, no more and no less.

 

Again, a worthwhile effort--but ultimately a failed one. You have presented nothing, Isiah, which supports your position in the slightest.

 

 

Let me stress that I am not necessarily espousing the proposal that smart missile systems should be allowed to fire on embarked units--I am merely pointing out that if we accept the generalization which states that embarked units are to be considered on the table we must also accept some...odd...ramifications of that generalization--including the fact that SMS would indeed be able to fire on such units.

[SeattleDV8]

Not at all.

Again looking at the FAQ

" "Q. Can Psychic powers be used on a unit

embarked on a transport?

A. For simplicity’s sake, the answer has to be a

firm ‘No, unless the psyker himself is in the unit

being transported’."

GW considers embarked units untargetable to external effects.

Generally the lack of LOS would disallow shooting the unit.

In the case of barrage blast none of the units embarked would have any of their bases covered by the blast marker.

Yes the Tau SMS does fall though the cracks for actual rules, but the intent is clear.

 

The only weapon that can effect an "embarked " unit is a template though a fire point in an intact building, and even that is a random d6 hits.

[Cale]

The FAQ addresses one particular scenario: a psychic power targeting an embarked unit. It does not state that embarked units cannot be fired upon.

 

I'm not talking about a psychic power. I'm talking about a shooting attack with a ranged weapon.

 

Again, you've pointed out a rule which applies to a situation which is only similar to the one I'm discussing and posited that, rather than applying only to the situation it specifically addresses, it somehow applies to other situations as well. It does not.

 

The rule to which you refer, in fact, fails to apply to the situation I've suggested in any way. It doesn't apply specifically, and it doesn't make any generalizations which could be applied. It is, as Isiah's example was, entirely irrelevant to the situation at hand.

 

Try again.

 

edit:

It is worth noting that I agree with you about barrage weapons (they wouldn't work, since there are no bases to cover) and there doesn't seem to be any other non-psychic power weapon that would actually work on embarked units. It might be an oversight, but it is still a mark against the notion that units which are embarked are considered, generally, to be on the table that there are no rules aside from the LOS rules which prevent them from being shot at.

[nighthawks]

A unit in a transport is only targetable from shooting and psychic attacks via the transport.

 

this is generally understood, even if not stated explicitly, and is implicit in the rules regarding transports, shooting at vehicles, and shooting and supported in the rules for shooting at intact buildings (examining the passages on P79 of the BRB will reveal much more than the single line quoted above by Isiah). if anyone wants to get into a heated RAW word-by-word debate, they win - this in not defensible at that level, like so much of the game.

 

Further, a special rule for shooting a particular weapon, found in a 3 year-old codex, though it may be the active and current rules we have for that army, shouldn't be seen as an oversight nor used as a wedge in a rules debate regarding an otherwise entirely unrelated game mechanic - the presence of a unit on the table with regard to spheres of influence or area effects while embarked. it's simply bad form, particularly in light of GWs well publicized decision to NOT issue further Errata regarding discrepancies or nullifications between existing codicies and the new game rules.

 

however, the unit is still in play (previously "on the table"), and their presence on the table is contained within the outline of the transport. distances to and from the unit are measured to and from the hull of said transport. model-specific areas of effect are addressed a'la carte as to the efficacy of their particular power whilst embarked. UNITS ranges are addressed globally in the BRB (measure to hull). psychic powers are addressed globally in an FAQ (only if also embarked with the "target" unit) - if you wish to use that.

 

I really don't understand why this is so heated...

[rat of vengence]

Yes, but they are all listed. Every exception to models being removed from the table because they are in transports is listed. For the same reasons that plasma weapons don't cook off in vehicles, models in vehicles cannot affect the table except in very specific ways and only in ways that are permissively listed. If a psychic hood or runes of witnessing or runes of warding could be used from a vehicle, the rules for those items would say they could be used from vehicles, just like it says that Farseers can use psychic powers from inside closed environment vehicles and it says that librarians can use forcedome on their comrades inside vehicles.

 

Since it doesn't say specifically anywhere that you may use these pieces of wargear from a vehicle, and your unit is, per the book, OFF THE TABLE, then trying to use them is wrong. Anyone who tries otherwise is cheating.

"You disagree with me, therefore you are a cheat!"

 

Nice. Would luuurve to face that across the game table... :P

 

Why don't plasma weapons overheat IN vehicles? What rule excepts them from this? You aren't refering to the rule about plasma weapons mounted ON vehicles are you?

 

RoV

[DevianID]

DevianID - your reading of the relevant rule stopped just before you reached the parenthesis "(except shooting)". The rule for units operating out of vehicles reads, in full, "If the players need to measure a range involving the embarked unit (except shooting), this range is measured to or from the vehicles hull"

 

And again, I point out, 'IF THE PLAYERS NEED' in the above rule. Where does it say you NEED to measure range for your psychic hood while in a vehicle? There is no rule saying you can use a hood in a vehicle. There are rules that say you can use a chaos icon in a vehicle--the difference is very clear. What you 'NEED' and what you 'WANT' are not the same thing. You 'WANT' to measure range and use your psychic hood from your librarian while embarked, but you have no rule that lets you do so--you have no 'NEED' to measure range.

 

Also, as someone else pointed out, it mentions measuring range involving the embarked unit--not the imbarked independant character/psyker. As I mentioned a few times, Pedro Kantor's ability in his codex reads 'Measure 12 inches from Pedro Kantor.' Measuring 12 inches from a rhino's hull that Pedro is embarked on does not equal measuring 12 inches from Pedro Kantor.

 

Remember, everyone saying this is just 4th edition holdover logic, please prove that the game changed! Yes, you can do more with an embarked unit than you used to be able to do. However, everything you can do in a vehicle, like shooting from a fire point, is something that is allowed by a special rule, because being in a vehicle otherwise replaces everything a model can do normally (because they are not on the table)

 

For example, standard rules say models in termie armor can shoot after moving... vehicle rules say that you can not shoot if you move more than 6 inches. Vehicle rules obviously override the normal state of play. Pedro Kantor has a barrage attack that requires no LOS... yet he cant use it in a land raider, because the land raider has no fire points that Pedro is allowed to shoot from. If Pedro was on the table, he would not have that problem.