Rune Priest or Dreadnought?

[Logain the Ranger]

(List so far at bottom) Well I am sitting at 1302 points on this list I am makeing for my Wolves and am wondering whether to use a Rune Priest with a Master-Crafted Lightning Claws, Belt of Russ, Runic Charm and a Wolf Pelt at 148pts. That would leave me with 50pts open. OR I could have a Ven Dread with assault Cannon and Flamer at 165pts which would leave me with 33pts. Choices choices... also feel free to comment and criticize the list.

 

HQ

 

Ragnar Blackmane - 512pts

Wolf Guard Bodyguard x5

(2x Assault Cannons, 4x Stormbolters, 5x Powerfists, 5x Runic Charms, Drop Pod)

 

 

Elites

 

Wolf Scouts - 86pts

(2x Plasma Pistols 1 Meltagun)

 

Troops

 

Greyhunters - 180pts

(Bolters)

 

Blood Claws -262pts

(Wolfguard Packleader w/Powerfist 3x Powerfist)

 

Blood Claws -262pts

(Wolfguard Packleader w/Powerfist 3x Powerfist)

[Hfran Morkai]

Well if you want to run this list I suggest the Priest and an attack bike with multi-melta as you will struggle with av14 targets. Stick him with one of the blood claw units. However I feel your list has too few units which makes the enmy target selection much easier. However I'm not the best at list building so perhaps another wolf should step in. Also I'm not a big fan of footslogging lists as my guys got slaughtered by guard last week.

[Logain the Ranger]

Armor 14 isn't a problem at the store, but the lack of ranged tank pop scares me. I'm trying something new with this list as I usually only run one BC squad and two GH squads. The idea of foot slogging is that if I have a RP at least one BC squad is always in cover and why are they shooting at my BCs if I have Ragnar and 5 Termies in the enemies face. (I could add two chainfists)

[Grey Mage]

Dreadnaught. With TLLC. And Extra armor. Never take a vendread without extra armor- its 5 pts, and keeping him walking towards the enemy is always worth it.

 

Itll give you the long range punch your list is missing, and take up most of the last 200pts. The remainder should let you throw a flamer and a power weapon on your GHs.

[Durfast Spiritwolf]

I support the VD option - again with extra armour.

[bareserker]

I would NEVER support the V.D. option !!!!! :lol: :lol: :lol:

(but I would support taking a Ven Dread :lol: ;) :yes: )..........Childish and purile I know ,but you left yourself wide open for it !

[Logain the Ranger]

Although, I'm a wolf at heart I've been playing BAs for awhile and the lack of dreads have dulled my senses. I don't think I'll pass up a BS 5 Twin-Linked Lascannon. If cover becomes a big issue for the BCs which it shouldn't I can cut a couple of BCs from each squad and drop the Pack Leader from the squad he would be with.

 

List with Dread (I gave the 3 Termies Chainfists with the extra points)

 

HQ

 

Ragnar Blackmane - 512pts

Wolf Guard Bodyguard x5

(2x Assault Cannons, 4x Stormbolters, 2x Powerfists, 3x Chainfists, 5x Runic Charms, Drop Pod)

 

Venerable Dreadnought - 180pts

(Extra Armor, TL Lascannon)

 

Elites

 

Wolf Scouts - 86pts

(2x Plasma Pistols 1 Meltagun)

 

Troops

 

Grey Hunter - 180pts

(Bolters)

 

Blood Claws -262pts

(Wolfguard Packleader w/Powerfist 3x Powerfist)

 

Blood Claws -262pts

(Wolfguard Packleader w/Powerfist 3x Powerfist)

[Vassakov]

Possibly a little late, but the Venerable Dread with TLLC is the best option - rerollable BS5 should see it pop a tank on the way in, and the DCCW should be fine for getting up close and personal.

[Grey Mage]

Youve got an extra stormbolter in there.

 

Instead of Chainfists maybe give your WGPL stormshields? thatll help survivability... or TDA.

 

Same with stormbolters on your Retinue, a few PWs and some SS would help alot.

[Captain Talon]

2 ways I'd run the dread. First as a long range firing platform. I'd put the TLLC and the Missile Launcher on him, keep him on your flanks, and try and get the side shot on the enemy. Dreads really aren't all that in close combat, so to take advantage of his best trait, the BS 5, I'd go that way. ( I'm a lil hypocritical in that my Ragnar and his LC Termies once got tarpitted by a dread and it swung the battle in my opponent's favor, which is why every termie squad I run now has at least a thunderhammer).

 

The other way is what I call the sure thing. Drop pod him down, with a multi-melta or the assault cannon. With the Pod you can hit side or rear armor. The Multi Melta helps you make sure you kill that LR or Leman Russ, while the Assault Cannon can take out most light vehicles. 4 Str 6 shots into a squadron of landspeeders or sentinels is pure joy. Plus, with the Drop Pod, he is alot closer to the enemy, so if you do want to use him in HTH, he won't take as much fire walking across the board. And he serves as a distraction from Ragnar. Don't forget a Heavy Flamer, and I second the Extra Armor.

 

For what it's worth.....power fists on WG termies is a bit of a waste of their biggest advantage, customabilty....With a couple power weapons or claws in their going at init 4, you can ensure a few kills, whereas with power fists, you might lose a couple guys before you can strike.

 

That being said, if you throw claws or power weapons on termies, then the Rune Priest becomes their best friend. Storm Caller allows them to go first in HTH if charged, which allows you to walk into the center of the enemy board, shoot stuff up, and be able to handle anything that charges you. ( Which is why I'd throw a thunderhammer in there as well....making an enemy model or tank take the hammer's effects can be a difference maker).

 

If you take the RP, make the WG squad his, and you won't need the Belt. Wolf Guard follow the retinue rule, so the RP won't be able to be picked out. Ragnar has an Invuln, so he can just join the squad to give them Berserk Charge.

 

Lastly, for the same reason above, I'd throw a power weapon or two into the Blood Claws. In 5th you get fewer PF attacks, so a couple PW attacks are good. Drop the Pack Leaders and put the GH in a Drop Pod, and the Ven Dread can buy one, or the the Rune Priest, giving you three, which allows you to drop 2 on the first turn.

 

Sneaky Trick of the day. The FAQ says to look at the SW Codex for what units can come down in DPs. That list says models in power armor or terminator armor. Models, not units. So an IC in a SW army can buy his own drop pod. Nothing in the rules says he HAS to come down in it, so you can attach him to the WG Squad, and have that pod come down empty. It's a sneaky and cheap, though legal, way to get that third drop pod, which allows you to bring 2 down the first turn, otherwise you can only bring one down the first turn, and then reserve drop the second.

 

Finally...my last thoughts....Ven vs RP...both bring great options to the army. Ven has great shooting, allows you to reroll the go first roll. the RP gives you Storm Caller, and the Chooser can stop infilitrators. I think this game hinges on close combat, and the Storm Caller power allows you to first if charged by almost everything....Khorne Berserkes, Daemon princes, Harlies, Genestealers.....At the end of the day, thats more of a difference maker then a lascannon is.

 

And on that note....Lascannons are not great against AV 14. You glance 1/6th of the time, and pen 1/6th of the time. A multimelta at Str 8 also glances 1/6 of the time, but has a better chance of destroying the tank. A multi melta in half range should, on average, pen the AV 14 every time, giving you a 50-50 shot at destroying the tank. And if you are close enough to charge in, in case you don't kill, so much the better. ( Assault cannons also have a better chance against AV 14 then lascannons do, but the math is complex).

[Grey Mage]

A number of good points there Talon, and the Rune Priest is a viable option... but I have to agree with the OP that hes missing alot in the ranged firepower department. That being said I have a couple of comments:

 

Actually since glancing is a -2 on the table and AP 1 is only a +1 a Lascannon is better until your within 12". Lascannon is also infinitely better over 24" *obviously* but the Multimelta really does shin with a DP. Multimelta Vendreads are the only time we pay more for our Venni than the Codex boys. A better way to put it would be that a Lascannon damages a landraider 1/3 of the time against AV 14, while a Multimelta at 1/4 a lascannons range damages AV 14 75% of the time *25/36* with a better change to kill.

 

As for Stormcaller: Beserkers have Frags, so stormcaller means nothing when they charge you. Genestealers can have them, and I always look at the nid player funny when they dont. Harlequins have grenades too.... Though I believe Demon Princes are without them. Its a useful power, its just most things that youll be worrying about dont care anyways- they have grenades or have a lower I value than you do anyways.

[Skaldnir]

Hell I'd say try to take both. But then again I usually run 3 Dreads(1 ven with a MM 2 with Missile launcher and lascannons) and a Runepriest in tda with FB SS and chooser, But hey go with what you enjoy. That being said you definately need some tank busting power. Outside of that wouldnt the wolfguard in ragnar's squad be better with dedicated assault gear(Seeing as he does give them berserk charge (wolf pelts for each of them wouldn't be bad either) I'm also a fairly new SW player so I wouldn't consider my suggestions too valid. ANyways just figured Id put my 2 cents in

[Spacefrisian]

Might be strange but what about dropping the Wolfguard and have Ragnar and that Runepriest (with Frostblade) join a troops unit. Imagine how many they can kill.

[Demogerg]

One more interesting point with the Rune Priest, If you cast it on your unit then charge into cover, your powerfists will strike at the same time as everyone else "Units that are protected in this way may assault and if they do so and the enemy are also in cover, attacks are resolved simultaneously"

 

And the extra armor on the dread would cost 15 points, because we use C:SM for vehicle upgrades.

[Hfran Morkai]

One more interesting point with the Rune Priest, If you cast it on your unit then charge into cover, your powerfists will strike at the same time as everyone else "Units that are protected in this way may assault and if they do so and the enemy are also in cover, attacks are resolved simultaneously"

 

And the extra armor on the dread would cost 15 points, because we use C:SM for vehicle upgrades.

Well even if they are not in cover, due to my groups interpretation of stormcaller the enemy goes at initative 1 so strikes at the same time as powerfists. And the SW ven dread is unique to us so we use the points listed, it'll be fixed soon

[KeithGatchalian]

A number of good points there Talon, and the Rune Priest is a viable option... but I have to agree with the OP that hes missing alot in the ranged firepower department. That being said I have a couple of comments:

 

Actually since glancing is a -2 on the table and AP 1 is only a +1 a Lascannon is better until your within 12". Lascannon is also infinitely better over 24" *obviously* but the Multimelta really does shin with a DP. Multimelta Vendreads are the only time we pay more for our Venni than the Codex boys. A better way to put it would be that a Lascannon damages a landraider 1/3 of the time against AV 14, while a Multimelta at 1/4 a lascannons range damages AV 14 75% of the time *25/36* with a better change to kill.

 

As for Stormcaller: Beserkers have Frags, so stormcaller means nothing when they charge you. Genestealers can have them, and I always look at the nid player funny when they dont. Harlequins have grenades too.... Though I believe Demon Princes are without them. Its a useful power, its just most things that youll be worrying about dont care anyways- they have grenades or have a lower I value than you do anyways.

 

You are incorrect sir. The power states....they count as being in cover for rules purposes and so will receive a 5+ cover save and will strike first in the first round of close combat if they are charged.

 

Frag grenades etc don't count against Storm Caller because the power overrides the normal initiative rules. A unit in cover goes first if the assaulting unit has to make a difficult terrain check. With Storm Caller, you do not make such a check, so the enemy is not assaulting through cover. If the rule had meant for the unit to be "in cover", it would have said treat the unit as being in cover for assault purposes. It has never been worded that way. It has always said strikes first in close combat. ( The if they are charged part was added in the last printing).

[KeithGatchalian]

One more interesting point with the Rune Priest, If you cast it on your unit then charge into cover, your powerfists will strike at the same time as everyone else "Units that are protected in this way may assault and if they do so and the enemy are also in cover, attacks are resolved simultaneously"

 

And the extra armor on the dread would cost 15 points, because we use C:SM for vehicle upgrades.

 

 

The rules for power fists on page 42 state you ignore initiative bonuses, so they always strike at 1, no simultaneously.

[KeithGatchalian]

One more interesting point with the Rune Priest, If you cast it on your unit then charge into cover, your powerfists will strike at the same time as everyone else "Units that are protected in this way may assault and if they do so and the enemy are also in cover, attacks are resolved simultaneously"

 

And the extra armor on the dread would cost 15 points, because we use C:SM for vehicle upgrades.

Well even if they are not in cover, due to my groups interpretation of stormcaller the enemy goes at initative 1 so strikes at the same time as powerfists. And the SW ven dread is unique to us so we use the points listed, it'll be fixed soon

 

Not exactly the correct way to interpet the power, though I suppose the end result is the same. Storm Caller doesn't really involve initiative numbers, it just says they go first. Period. Remember, SC is not cover.

[lunchb0x]

Dread.

[Logain the Ranger]

A lot of good points have been brought up and I will try to address each.

 

Youve got an extra stormbolter in there.

 

Instead of Chainfists maybe give your WGPL stormshields? thatll help survivability... or TDA.

 

Same with stormbolters on your Retinue, a few PWs and some SS would help alot.

 

Thanks for pointing out the extra stormbolter. I orginally thought about putting SS on my Pack leaders and for 5 points they are dirt cheap. As for putting SS on my Termies then I would just throw Thunder Hammers on them as well and be called cheese. Though some power weapons on my termies could help.

 

2 ways I'd run the dread. First as a long range firing platform. I'd put the TLLC and the Missile Launcher on him, keep him on your flanks, and try and get the side shot on the enemy. Dreads really aren't all that in close combat, so to take advantage of his best trait, the BS 5, I'd go that way. ( I'm a lil hypocritical in that my Ragnar and his LC Termies once got tarpitted by a dread and it swung the battle in my opponent's favor, which is why every termie squad I run now has at least a thunderhammer).

 

The other way is what I call the sure thing. Drop pod him down, with a multi-melta or the assault cannon. With the Pod you can hit side or rear armor. The Multi Melta helps you make sure you kill that LR or Leman Russ, while the Assault Cannon can take out most light vehicles. 4 Str 6 shots into a squadron of landspeeders or sentinels is pure joy. Plus, with the Drop Pod, he is alot closer to the enemy, so if you do want to use him in HTH, he won't take as much fire walking across the board. And he serves as a distraction from Ragnar. Don't forget a Heavy Flamer, and I second the Extra Armor.

 

I thought about podding my dread in also as the fear in people's face when they see two squads like that on them turn one (I would take that 3rd DP in that case).

 

 

For what it's worth.....power fists on WG termies is a bit of a waste of their biggest advantage, customabilty....With a couple power weapons or claws in their going at init 4, you can ensure a few kills, whereas with power fists, you might lose a couple guys before you can strike.

 

Through my whole career as a SW player I have ran them with PFs and it has never given me real trouble. That being said, I usually ran them with a Wolf Lord so that attack bonus wasn't a problem. I think that I can just mix the unit up. (Keep chainfists on the Assault Cannon guys and Lightning Claws on the other termies)

 

That being said, if you throw claws or power weapons on termies, then the Rune Priest becomes their best friend. Storm Caller allows them to go first in HTH if charged, which allows you to walk into the center of the enemy board, shoot stuff up, and be able to handle anything that charges you. ( Which is why I'd throw a thunderhammer in there as well....making an enemy model or tank take the hammer's effects can be a difference maker).

 

If you take the RP, make the WG squad his, and you won't need the Belt. Wolf Guard follow the retinue rule, so the RP won't be able to be picked out. Ragnar has an Invuln, so he can just join the squad to give them Berserk Charge.

 

I thought about that, but the whole reason of the RP was to keep my BCs in cover.

 

Lastly, for the same reason above, I'd throw a power weapon or two into the Blood Claws. In 5th you get fewer PF attacks, so a couple PW attacks are good. Drop the Pack Leaders and put the GH in a Drop Pod, and the Ven Dread can buy one, or the the Rune Priest, giving you three, which allows you to drop 2 on the first turn.

 

I'm not really a fan of power weapons in BC squads when I have ran them they just don't get the kill power that I need. Now with counter attack I should always be charging and getting my bonus which equals 3 powerfist swings per BC and 3 from the PL. With sixteen man squads (Counting the PL) those fists should get through. (Though as I said before I can mix it up if it doesn't work and go a 2/2 breakdown on the fists and Power weapons)

 

 

Might be strange but what about dropping the Wolfguard and have Ragnar and that Runepriest (with Frostblade) join a troops unit. Imagine how many they can kill.

 

Ragnar wouldn't add much to a BC squad, though the RP would.

[Grey Mage]

A number of good points there Talon, and the Rune Priest is a viable option... but I have to agree with the OP that hes missing alot in the ranged firepower department. That being said I have a couple of comments:

 

Actually since glancing is a -2 on the table and AP 1 is only a +1 a Lascannon is better until your within 12". Lascannon is also infinitely better over 24" *obviously* but the Multimelta really does shin with a DP. Multimelta Vendreads are the only time we pay more for our Venni than the Codex boys. A better way to put it would be that a Lascannon damages a landraider 1/3 of the time against AV 14, while a Multimelta at 1/4 a lascannons range damages AV 14 75% of the time *25/36* with a better change to kill.

 

As for Stormcaller: Beserkers have Frags, so stormcaller means nothing when they charge you. Genestealers can have them, and I always look at the nid player funny when they dont. Harlequins have grenades too.... Though I believe Demon Princes are without them. Its a useful power, its just most things that youll be worrying about dont care anyways- they have grenades or have a lower I value than you do anyways.

 

You are incorrect sir. The power states....they count as being in cover for rules purposes and so will receive a 5+ cover save and will strike first in the first round of close combat if they are charged.

 

Frag grenades etc don't count against Storm Caller because the power overrides the normal initiative rules. A unit in cover goes first if the assaulting unit has to make a difficult terrain check. With Storm Caller, you do not make such a check, so the enemy is not assaulting through cover. If the rule had meant for the unit to be "in cover", it would have said treat the unit as being in cover for assault purposes. It has never been worded that way. It has always said strikes first in close combat. ( The if they are charged part was added in the last printing).

 

Actually sir, your are incorrect as you are misquoting the power. It states:

"This unit counts as being in cover for rules purposes and so will receive a 5+ cover save and will strike first in close combat until the end of the following enemy turn. Units that are protected this way may assault and, if they do so and the enemy are also in cover attacks are resolved in order or initiative." C:SW pg 6.

 

Thus it is a generous statement to say they get any protection from being assaulted. It would more likely end up that you must take difficult terrain tests to assault if the unit its cast on doesnt have grenades. It does give you the effect of grenades if your opponent is also in cover. The enemy has no actual cover to move through and thus are unaffected by this power when assaulting.

 

Stormcaller is almost worthless for assaults. The coversave is helpful. CotS is very helpful... sometimes. Runic Staff can be helpful, but LD 9 makes it difficult to use reliably.

[KeithGatchalian]

[

Actually sir, your are incorrect as you are misquoting the power. It states:

"This unit counts as being in cover for rules purposes and so will receive a 5+ cover save and will strike first in close combat until the end of the following enemy turn. Units that are protected this way may assault and, if they do so and the enemy are also in cover attacks are resolved in order or initiative." C:SW pg 6.

 

Thus it is a generous statement to say they get any protection from being assaulted. It would more likely end up that you must take difficult terrain tests to assault if the unit its cast on doesnt have grenades. It does give you the effect of grenades if your opponent is also in cover. The enemy has no actual cover to move through and thus are unaffected by this power when assaulting.

 

Stormcaller is almost worthless for assaults. The coversave is helpful. CotS is very helpful... sometimes. Runic Staff can be helpful, but LD 9 makes it difficult to use reliably.

 

I am not misquoting the power. I typed it verbatim from my codex. The copy I have is the last printing of the second printing of the Space Wolf codex. I got it from the Codex library from when I worked at Games Workshop HQ.

 

Rules as Written, the explanation of the power states they go first when assaulted. There's no arguement there. Res ipsa loquiter...the thing speaks for itself. If the unit were meant to be in cover, the explanation would say...the unit counts as being in cover for assaults. It does not. It specifically says...the unit strikes first in the first round of combat if they are charged.

 

You seem to be getting alot of these rules wrong. I don't say that to be a troll or to be insulting. But you've gotten the master crafting question wrong, the healing balms one wrong, and now this one.

[greese_m0nkey]

Don't forget that at 1500 points you have to have 2 HQ'S. I run cheap WGBL with my Blood Claws squads. Remember the blood claws loose one attack with Power Fists do to the new rules; Power weapons are cheaper and just as deadly to troops your blood claws should be assaulting. Throwing them in a rhino gets them across the field fast then you use the rhinos to funnel the enemy into fire lanes for your Grey hunters, or split them up to let your blood claws destroy a squad one at a time. I played a 2000 point game with 3 squads of Blood Claws 9 each with one power fist and power weapon mounted in rhinos, scared the crap out of my opponent he focus on them and I took 4 out of the 5 objectives unopposed.

[Grey Mage]

[

Actually sir, your are incorrect as you are misquoting the power. It states:

"This unit counts as being in cover for rules purposes and so will receive a 5+ cover save and will strike first in close combat until the end of the following enemy turn. Units that are protected this way may assault and, if they do so and the enemy are also in cover attacks are resolved in order or initiative." C:SW pg 6.

 

Thus it is a generous statement to say they get any protection from being assaulted. It would more likely end up that you must take difficult terrain tests to assault if the unit its cast on doesnt have grenades. It does give you the effect of grenades if your opponent is also in cover. The enemy has no actual cover to move through and thus are unaffected by this power when assaulting.

 

Stormcaller is almost worthless for assaults. The coversave is helpful. CotS is very helpful... sometimes. Runic Staff can be helpful, but LD 9 makes it difficult to use reliably.

 

I am not misquoting the power. I typed it verbatim from my codex. The copy I have is the last printing of the second printing of the Space Wolf codex. I got it from the Codex library from when I worked at Games Workshop HQ.

 

Rules as Written, the explanation of the power states they go first when assaulted. There's no arguement there. Res ipsa loquiter...the thing speaks for itself. If the unit were meant to be in cover, the explanation would say...the unit counts as being in cover for assaults. It does not. It specifically says...the unit strikes first in the first round of combat if they are charged.

 

You seem to be getting alot of these rules wrong. I don't say that to be a troll or to be insulting. But you've gotten the master crafting question wrong, the healing balms one wrong, and now this one.

Perhaps we speak a different form of english you and I. Stormcaller uses standard english and the two partial statements following the word "so" are examples of what being in cover means. The 5+ is still supported by the current rules system, its a valid number. The always strikes first part is not however an extrapolation of being in cover and thus is no longer applicable. Its been argued over and over on this forum both ways. But the part of always striking first is not an independant statement and as written is dependant on the unit be considered in cover and what that entails.

 

I still stand by my HP+B aswell. As for mastercrafting, your free to disagree... I leave that one up to interpretation.

[Hfran Morkai]

One more interesting point with the Rune Priest, If you cast it on your unit then charge into cover, your powerfists will strike at the same time as everyone else "Units that are protected in this way may assault and if they do so and the enemy are also in cover, attacks are resolved simultaneously"

 

And the extra armor on the dread would cost 15 points, because we use C:SM for vehicle upgrades.

Well even if they are not in cover, due to my groups interpretation of stormcaller the enemy goes at initative 1 so strikes at the same time as powerfists. And the SW ven dread is unique to us so we use the points listed, it'll be fixed soon

 

Not exactly the correct way to interpet the power, though I suppose the end result is the same. Storm Caller doesn't really involve initiative numbers, it just says they go first. Period. Remember, SC is not cover.

 

Stormcaller counts as cover. Therefore in 4th it was initative 10 then enemy then powerfists. However in the new edition cover makes enemies strike at initative 1 unless assault grenades are taken and to use those grenades they would have to frag themselves, not going to happen. My club is perfectly happy to run it like this because hes 80 points basic with ld9. So thats the way we run it.

 

But this is not really a stormcaller debate, I like RPs and thats why I suggested him. However I seem in the minority, but I take both anyway