greatcrusade08 Posted June 19, 2009 Share Posted June 19, 2009 hey guys, after ive finished my next project of 3rd company ultramarines, im planning a Khornate daemon army. It probably wont be until the end of the year, but since im starting to consider costs etc. Anyways im thinking maybe the following (i dont know much about them) Skarbrand Skull taker on juggernaut 8 bloodcrushers 8 letters with fury 8 letters with fury 8 hounds with fury soulgrinder with phlegm soulgrinder with phlegm Would this list be competative? GC08 Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/171459-daemons-in-my-future/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
OwlandMoonGuy Posted June 19, 2009 Share Posted June 19, 2009 Skarbrand is an interesting choice but, IMHO, he’s more of a support unit than he first appears. In other words, given his unique ability, you want a lot of other daemons nearby to take full advantage of it. Your other Khorne units go a long what to deliver that but read on… Daemons need to rely on Monstrous Creatures for their anti-tank. If Skarbrand is the only one filling that role for you he may not be there to support your other close combats. Fleshhounds are interesting units as they can help get combats going to allow your letters to come in and do some real damage. Unfortunately they cost almost as much pts wise and are not scoring units. I’d be inclined to drop them for more letters for just that reason. Are you really going with no icons at all or haven’t you gotten to that level of detail? My rule of thumb is thus; 1-2 icons at 1.5K, 2-3 icons at 1.85 -2.0K and 3+ thereafter. I would never go to the table w/o any at all. In general, all Khorne armies can work and you have all the basic elements. I find that they lack for overall model count and don’t have any, “expendable” units. Based on my style of play, I always have a couple of units I don’t mind losing either to block a charge or just sit back and hold an objective. Many players seem to like plaguebearers for that role but I like daemonettes even better. Likewise, Khorne lacks for fire support but you have the Grinders in place which will help. The game designers have come flat out and stated that the list was built around mixed god armies. Not to say that mono-god can’t work just you are limiting your options from a competitive perspective. Just MHO, -OMG Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/171459-daemons-in-my-future/#findComment-2026460 Share on other sites More sharing options...
greatcrusade08 Posted June 19, 2009 Author Share Posted June 19, 2009 Thanks OMG, as its probably obvious i have no experience with Khorne past playing a few games against them. Icons are for negating scatter on DS'ing units right?, im sure i can squeeze a couple in somewhere. As for the hounds, would it be better to switch them out for another greater daemon? As for mixed gods, its not my bag baby ;) Seriously though i like themes to my armies and wouldnt change that just to win the extra game or two, so im sticking with the blood god i think :) Thanks for the reply. GC08 Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/171459-daemons-in-my-future/#findComment-2026470 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Malachi Posted June 19, 2009 Share Posted June 19, 2009 Hmm, OMG is right, Skarbrand is more of a support unit than a combat powerhouse, so I'd actually just drop him for a standard 'thirster, which seem to be better overall to them anyway. The bloodcrushers would be better in two units of four with all upgrades. As they stand, you'll have serious difficulty deepstriking them (have you ever put 8 60mm bases in a circle? It's huge!) and you'll just have one big, slow unit that'll essentially be out of the battle the instant a dread hits them. In smaller units, you can DS safer, you don't lose the whole thing to one bad roll on the scatter and if one half get's stopped by a dread, the other half can keep fighting. With all upgrades, you can then play wound allocation (and that's two of your icons right there, I'll talk about fury later) which will greatly improve the units survivability. More bloodletters! Both bigger units and more of them as well. 16 T4 scoring units with a 5+ save? Yeah, you will NOT win any objective based missions. I'd drop Skulltaker and the hounds for more 'letters, if you only take 'letters as your troops you really need to take a lot of them. While we're here, fury's a waste of points. It does nothing at all against infantry, with S5 on the charge you can already pen most tanks, so the only use for it at all is against dreads and a very few select vehicles, but guess what, that's why you have your 'thirster and those two 'grinders, for tank killing. I've already said that I'd drop the hounds so I'll ignore those and go straight on to the 'grinders. Soulgrinders are good. I may be the sites resident daemon prince fanboy, but the simple fact is that they are very effective for the points. Phlegm is excellent anti-horde, but don't forget that you have S10 in CC, so going after tanks is often a good idea, and with fleet you can actually get there. Not as well as a winged prince though. :) But good luck to you, and don't forget to head over to the sample army lists thread we're doing for our review, we recently did mono-Khorne so maybe you'll see something in there that'll help you. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/171459-daemons-in-my-future/#findComment-2026536 Share on other sites More sharing options...
greatcrusade08 Posted June 19, 2009 Author Share Posted June 19, 2009 Thanks Capn, ill gve it some thought and see if i can come up with a decent list, i like the idea of seperating the crushers and i should take more troops... Ill ost up again when i can access my mates army builder (i dotn ahve codex yet, my first buy when i get round to it) GC08 Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/171459-daemons-in-my-future/#findComment-2026644 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vassakov Posted June 19, 2009 Share Posted June 19, 2009 I'll echo what has been said. 2 Units of 4 (or even 3 units of 3, if you can find the points) would be vastly superior as they can probably find somewhere to DS and can engage seperate targets. Nothing really comes to mind that 8 Bloodcrushers (which equates to 32 S6 WS5 I5 power weapon attacks) would actually need to worry about. Nobz Bikers perhaps, but even then... it's just overkill. Flesh Hounds aren't worth it. They are horrible, expensive models and inferior to Bloodletters, which you don't really have enough of. As Capt Malachi and OMG have said, Bloodletters need to be at least 10+ men, preferably in the 15 range to give them some resilience to firepower. 2 Soul Grinders provide what is probably desperately needed AT (that said, vs anything that isn't a Raider, Monolith or Dread the Crushers and Letters can deal with. I had 2 Russes neutralised by a Might'd Kherald and some Bletters.) I'll second Mal though, Daemon Princes are generally better, although getting one with MoK, Wings, Might and Hide would be over 200pts. That said, they are surprisingly hard to kill with T5 and a 3+/5++ and can ruin almost anything in CC. My advice would be split the Crushers up, and drop Skulltaker. Drop the Soul Grinders and the Flesh Hounds, and swap Skarbrand for a regular 'Thirster. Boost both the Bletters units to 12-16, add two Princes or a Prince and a second Thirster, and use any remaining points to distribute icons, Might and Fury. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/171459-daemons-in-my-future/#findComment-2026702 Share on other sites More sharing options...
greatcrusade08 Posted June 20, 2009 Author Share Posted June 20, 2009 just a quick question.. i heard somewhere that the Khorne god number was 8, which is pretty much why everything is in 8's... Thanks again guys youve been great help Gc08 Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/171459-daemons-in-my-future/#findComment-2026928 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Malachi Posted June 20, 2009 Share Posted June 20, 2009 Yep, Khorne's number is 8, but unfortunately it's a REALLY bad number to use for his units, daemons are hard enough to play as it is, don't hamstring yourself too much. Besides, 'crushers in 4s is still fluffy, as multiples or halfs is allowed by the Chaos Gods for unit size. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/171459-daemons-in-my-future/#findComment-2026948 Share on other sites More sharing options...
greatcrusade08 Posted June 20, 2009 Author Share Posted June 20, 2009 Thats cool then ill use 4's for the crushers and 16's for the letters.. Ill think up a new list and get back to you all... GC08 Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/171459-daemons-in-my-future/#findComment-2026953 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emperor's Instrument Posted June 20, 2009 Share Posted June 20, 2009 Just one thing to bear in mind, if you go to GW for the 'Crushers it'll see you out of £144. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/171459-daemons-in-my-future/#findComment-2027117 Share on other sites More sharing options...
greatcrusade08 Posted June 22, 2009 Author Share Posted June 22, 2009 ive had a look at possible armies and im stuck on a few points, at the moment i have bloodthirster.....250 bloodthirster.....250 4 x bloodcrushers.....160 4 x bloodcrushers.....160 16 bloodletters with fury.....266 16 bloodletters with fury.....266 1352 points.. I wanted to get a couple of soulgrinders, but im not fussed if i run two bloodthirsters, should i now run a daemon prince with this list?? Also im not too clued up on which units need the icons, any help greatly appreciated. GC08 Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/171459-daemons-in-my-future/#findComment-2028152 Share on other sites More sharing options...
greatcrusade08 Posted June 23, 2009 Author Share Posted June 23, 2009 hey guys me again, heres what ive decided to do: Im definately gunna collect daemons starting sooner than i thought, i spoke with a mate earlier and we came up with a 'starter' 1500 point list that i can expand at a later date.. C+C always welcome, especially since im a noob in the warp :lol: Bloodthrister.....300 Iron hide, instrument of chaos, unholy might 15 bloodletters.....250 Fury 15 bloodletters.....250 Fury 4 bloodcrushers.....170 Fury 4 bloodcrushers.....170 Fury Daemon prince.....180 instrument of chaos, iron hide, unholy might, mark of khorne Daemon prince.....180 instrument of chaos, iron hide, unholy might, mark of khorne 1500 points Letters are at 15 instead of 16 for god number, mainly due to the fact they are sold in 10's :P The DP's dont have wings as its 120 points for two of them so i didnt bother. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/171459-daemons-in-my-future/#findComment-2029177 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Malachi Posted June 23, 2009 Share Posted June 23, 2009 Your points are wrong on the bloodthirster, he comes with hide as standard and the only way to pay 300 for him is to buy all four upgrades, your one actually costs 275. I don't really have time to comment on the rest of the list, I'll get back to that later. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/171459-daemons-in-my-future/#findComment-2029189 Share on other sites More sharing options...
greatcrusade08 Posted June 23, 2009 Author Share Posted June 23, 2009 yeah he comes with all the upgrades, i was using army builder at my friends and emailed it over to my computer where it suddenly makes no sense what-so-ever! :D I only put the 5 point upgrades on the MC's as i had a few points left over.. (instrument of chaos?) GC08 Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/171459-daemons-in-my-future/#findComment-2029207 Share on other sites More sharing options...
OwlandMoonGuy Posted June 23, 2009 Share Posted June 23, 2009 Instrument of Chaos is a bit of an insult to a Thirster, (what do you mean, just in case I draw during a round of close combat???). I’m not following this list 100% but I’ll go back to my point on icons. I’d find some points out there, perhaps dropping some Fury upgrades. Every daemon player needs to get a feel for how fickle the scatter dice can be. You have some good redundancy in this list but the bane of all foot slogging daemons is the bad scatter eventuality. Right now, the Thirster is your only mobile unit. I’d reconfigure the DP’s to have wings. In a list like this, I would break up the letters into 3 squads of either 8 or 9 vs. the 2 squads of 15. Personally, I never run a list with less than 5 scoring units, even at 1,500 pts. If you’re concerned with taking on, “all comers,” this list will not fare well vs. hoards or highly mobile armies. In fact I would suspect that mech Eldar and mech Tau would give you the hardest time. -OMG Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/171459-daemons-in-my-future/#findComment-2029294 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vassakov Posted June 23, 2009 Share Posted June 23, 2009 Whilst I agree with OMG as far as the Wings and Icons go, I really disagree with his analysis of splitting up the Bletters - a squad of 8/9 is not resiliant enough to do anything of note, and against a competant player will be crippled or destroyed by Rapid Fire units on the DS, and there won't be enough of them to do any damage. Assuming first turn DS, a unit of Bletters that lands within 18" of a SM Tactical Squad with 10 Bolters will get 4.44 Bletters - not enough to stop 15, but against 8-9 thats half the squad and that assumes a fair 1v1 Matchup, which is unlikely on T1. Using MC's to support will lessen the fire directed at them, but as I rule of thumb I have found that larger squads of Bletters do better than multiple smaller squads. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/171459-daemons-in-my-future/#findComment-2029327 Share on other sites More sharing options...
OwlandMoonGuy Posted June 23, 2009 Share Posted June 23, 2009 I suppose you can chalk this up to a basic difference in playing style. I only think about army lists from a holistic viewpoint; take on all comers’ in all missions. By skimping on scoring units, you’re going to be vulnerable during Capture & Control missions but even more so in [/i]Size Ground[/i]. If you have any daemon squad drift too close (i.e. 18”) to an enemy firing line why stop the mathammer at 20 bolter shots? You most likely will have a lot more to deal with than one squad’s worth of shooting. And if that’s one of only 2 scoring units to contend with then it’s an even greater value target. Where the odds really turn against you is with armies that have equal or better troop units and lots more of them. Then it’s not just going to be damage control after a bad scatter. You’ll then need to deal with the concept of 15 letters sitting on one objective with the other 15 trying to capture another. An opponent with 6-8 scoring units could walk with the game by attrition alone. But I’ll also freely admit, what we are dealing with here is intrinsic of mono-god armies. In my own case, I meat shield the letters with cheaper & expendable daemonettes. So maybe that’s just how Khorne rolls. Objectives? We don’t need no stinking objectives! Blood for the blood god! (He can gather up the skulls himself!) -OMG Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/171459-daemons-in-my-future/#findComment-2029511 Share on other sites More sharing options...
greatcrusade08 Posted June 23, 2009 Author Share Posted June 23, 2009 For the DP's wings i would have to drop 3 bloodcrushers taking a single unit of 5 instead of two units of 4.. This is doable and something ill consider, but the icons really confuse me, which units do i put them in... what if the half i want to show up first comes on last, all my icons are lost in the wind so to speak... and if im putting enough icons to counter this, then its alot of points... Help anyone? GC08 Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/171459-daemons-in-my-future/#findComment-2029512 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Malachi Posted June 23, 2009 Share Posted June 23, 2009 Icons can go anywhere, it really doesn't seem to matter much, but bloodcrushers are a good choice for wound allocation. As for getting the wrong half and losing your icons, that's why you take two icons and put one in each wave, that way it doesn't matter which half comes down, you'll still have at least one icon. I'll have to agree with Vassakov on the bloodletter unit size issue, small units just die far too easily. However, I've really gone off bloodletters altogether in favour of plaguebearers and fiends, bloodletters aren't really a scoring unit. Yes, they're troops and if you're lucky enough to have them on an objective at the end of the game then that's great, but using them as an objective holder is just a huge waste of points. As OMG said at the end of his post, Khorne armies can't really focus on objectives, you just have to table the enemy and maybe hold one objective if you're lucky. You might want to consider counts as, it's not for everyone, but a unit of counts as plaguebearers would really help this list out. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/171459-daemons-in-my-future/#findComment-2029522 Share on other sites More sharing options...
greatcrusade08 Posted June 24, 2009 Author Share Posted June 24, 2009 Thanks for all your help guys. Im definately sticking with mono-khorne and i think OMG said it best So maybe that’s just how Khorne rolls. Objectives? We don’t need no stinking objectives! Blood for the blood god! (He can gather up the skulls himself!) im thinking that khorne-dogs may be of some help after all, dont cavalry/beasts move 12"??? So if i drop a unit of crushers i can put wings on the DP's Bloodthrister.....300 Iron hide, instrument of chaos, unholy might 15 bloodletters.....250 Fury 15 bloodletters.....250 Fury 4 bloodcrushers.....170 Fury Daemon prince.....240 instrument of chaos, iron hide, unholy might, mark of khorne, wings Daemon prince.....240 instrument of chaos, iron hide, unholy might, mark of khorne, wings 1450 This leaves 50 points for two icons which il play around with, quick question: If the first wave comes down together can i put the unit with icn down first and then use THAT icon to bring down the rest of the same wave? Ill probably put some hounds in when i go up to 1750 points or more. Thanks guys. GC08 Edit: im concerned now this is becomign a daemonzilla list, should i drop a DP in favour of another unit of bloodletters or the 4 crushers and 5 hounds? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/171459-daemons-in-my-future/#findComment-2030014 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Malachi Posted June 24, 2009 Share Posted June 24, 2009 Unfortunately you can't use an icon on the turn it drops, so no putting it down first and DSing off it. And what do you mean you're concerned about it becoming daemonzilla? That's the best army build out there. :lol: But in all seriousness, we need the anti-tank, so unless you spam bolt of Tzeentch you really have to take several MCs to be competetive. Edit- I just noticed your Khorne princes are priced wrong, I can't remember the price of MoK right now to tell you how much they should be, but it's definately less than 240. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/171459-daemons-in-my-future/#findComment-2030062 Share on other sites More sharing options...
greatcrusade08 Posted June 24, 2009 Author Share Posted June 24, 2009 Unfortunately you can't use an icon on the turn it drops, so no putting it down first and DSing off it. And what do you mean you're concerned about it becoming daemonzilla? That's the best army build out there. :down: Yeah your probably right, the low numbers worried me, but then im used to having 60-70 scouts at 1500 points... Edit- I just noticed your Khorne princes are priced wrong, I can't remember the price of MoK right now to tell you how much they should be, but it's definately less than 240. i used army builder, and i may have missed some of the upgrades on the above list, but then army builder can be wrong. My very next purchase will be the daemon codex :D Thanks for your help guys, i wanna run this army to be quite big, so ill add to it afer ive finsihed the 1500 points.. GC08 Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/171459-daemons-in-my-future/#findComment-2030169 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron-Daemon Forge Posted June 24, 2009 Share Posted June 24, 2009 Your list on Post no 20 (or 22?). I would recommend taken a Soul Grinder over the Daemon Prince, not only because it cheaper, but you will really need the fire support. On top of that, because your Daemons & deep strike a lot people will set up in the conrer & not move out other than to pick area of your armies up be it by mass fire or combat. Also in general I feel fire support is need for Daemon armies (Soul Grinder since your wanting to keep this Khorne theme since Soul Grinder work for the Dark Forge with in the chaos realm) As for Bloodcrusher & the No8, rememeber 4x2. Also it best keep them this way so they can support or taken on unit by them self, other wise mean being one big unit, they will not be able to support. My own Daemon army list is currently to give you some idea?? Bloodthrister, Death Strike, +1 in the event of a draw in combat thing..? - Skull taker just die to easy to bolter fire & rarely made it into combat. Sure 4+ rend help... but I rather have a Bloodthrister, tougher & more wise really. I have not loss him so far. I would not mind taken the specil ch Bloodthrister, more model wise than anything. But don't have the pts. 2x 3 Bloodcrusher - I would like more but like many money££ (thinking more 3x 4). But I tend to keep them as two units, as said to give support when needed in combat & so there more target in term of when the oppent fire that my Daemon army so I am sure that least somthing will get into combat the following turn. 2x 8 Bloodletters w/Icon - I like the plastic models & got some while I work as part timer for GW. They maybe not fast compaired to Slannesh, but are great in combat. It is very scary when you wipe out a unit of 30 Ork (well with a bit of help from the Crusher or Thirster) in one round of combat. 2x 5 Horrors, one unit w/Changling - Though Khorne :D As said fire support. I find these great for taken down Hordes, also Changling is the best specil ch for his pts, nothing more fun than when your oppent fail a Ld in Kill point mission & slaughter his own unit. 3x Soul Ginrder - Again fire power & as said when battle other, they will set up in one conrer so it the case of deep strike in front of there line & get gun down or scatter of the table/there units. As said a lot cheaper than a Daemon Prince, also for me personial.... I use a Daemon Prince in my Chaos Marines, you want to try somthing diffrent. It 1500pts My wave's are 1: 2x unit Horrors, 3x Soul Grinder 2: Bloodthrister, 2 Bloodcrusher, 2 Bloodletter Just I rather keep my shooting stuff all together & combat stuff all together, so this way I ether blast/soft up the oppent. Or in term combat, mean there all ready for next turn assault. But this is my own overall army, merely to give some idea. So far it has slaughter a Ork horde army by turn 3, it has slaughter Imperial Guards with only one loss model. I'm temp to use my Daemon tomorrow that my gaming club vs UKGT heat 3 champ Ian & his new GT army. But again just some more though. IP Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/171459-daemons-in-my-future/#findComment-2030497 Share on other sites More sharing options...
greatcrusade08 Posted June 24, 2009 Author Share Posted June 24, 2009 some intersting ideas coming up, and ill admit im a little out of my depth. Im sure it will come to me soon! Is it a good idea to run fewer bloodletters like IP?, im not fussed about scoring units as khorne should always be cutting guys in half rather than hunkering down in a bush. to be honest ill probably collect 2-3000 points so ill have a couple of DP's and soul grinders eventually, but to begin with im trying to get 1500 points that plays pretty well.. It tends to take me a while to learn to play a certain army so ill probably be a regualr on this forum whilst im finding my feet. GC08 Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/171459-daemons-in-my-future/#findComment-2030543 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron-Daemon Forge Posted June 24, 2009 Share Posted June 24, 2009 Is it a good idea to run fewer bloodletters like IP?, With Daemons, as people that my club have said...your ether going to get killed by the small Daemon (Letter, Horrors) or the bigger Daemon (Grinder, Thirster) or if unluck vs me, everthing. I only had my Bloodletter down to one model so far in games other wise because of my abilty to make Inv save (some say the chaos gods favour me :( ) I'm not really effected. Rarely loss everthing, if I loss a game it because my oppent held the object, while I got to much into the mind frame of the daemon army, eg: kill everthing near by for the blood god & not care about the object :lol: But overall it dose help to have fire support & more so with a few soul grinder to stop people/oppent hide in a conrer, only move to finish off unit. IP Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/171459-daemons-in-my-future/#findComment-2030558 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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