Shooty Terminators

[Vedrial]

I constantly see shooty Termies getting a bad rap on here. What I'd like to know is, why?

 

In my experiences, shooty Termies have performed phenominally for me.

 

I run a sqaud of shooty Termies with an Assault Cannon and a Chainfist. This unit can take on any enemy in the game. Vehicles? 3 Power Fists, a Chainfist, and an AC can do some serious damage. I had them kill a Soul Grinder from 24" away just last week. Infantry? 4 Storm Bolters and the AC are never fun for anyone.

 

My strategy with them is to Drop Pod in a Dreadnaught on turn 1, targeting enemy heavy armor, hopefully close to their main force. The Pod has a locator beacon, and my Termies have been super reliable coming in on turn 2 or 3 every game. As soon as they come in, they get to work shooting and assault, and drawing a huge amount of attention from the rest of my army, who proceeds to shoot them to pieces from farther out.

 

So why do they get so much hate? They're the perfect unit to provide some strong (and cheap, for their usefullness) backup to a powerful first jab. They keep the heat off the rest of my army, and allow my long range, more fragile units to do their work. The enemy can't ignore them like they can Assault Termies, and if they do, it's lights out for them.

 

Most of my experience with them has been in 1000 point games, but I don't see how the same premise won't work in 2000 point games.

[Koremu]

I use a similar technique to yours, except I use Tactical Squads with Teleport Homers as my "guide" unit. I find that the ability to manifest a Squad of Terminators at whichever of my objectives my opponent goes for is incredibly handy.

[Shadowstalker Grim]

Well personally i love the shooty terminators, but i guess its because that people are often not keen to invest so many points in them for what they get, they can draw significant fire and fall down pretty quickly even to small arms fire if theres enough and the only transport that can house them is a land raider and many people would rather invest in CC terminators if you're going to house them.

 

However personally i think they are very under-rated as a unit but i suppose a small squad size wont help much as they can certainly fall down much quicker then..

[tedwin183]

I completely agree and I think with the advent of flamers and meltas in 5th ed., you're going to see a resurgence of termie heavy lists soon. No longer do termie lists cower to the sight of las/plas squads, no. And melta weapons are simply the counter to the new and improved vehicle damage chart.

[dreadmad]

i love shooty termi's, you can decimate a squad with storm bolters and assault cannons/heavy flamers/cyclones and then charge because there relentless :D

[Ryjak]

The reason people are ignoring the Tactical Terminators is simple; they're harder to use. Any idiot can stick Assault Terminators in a Landraider and deliver them into combat where they need to be. It's much harder to use Tactical Terminators to full effect.

 

I think a phalanx of 10, anchored by two Dreadnoughts, would cause a lot of damage, though. Tactical Terminators and Dreadnoughts compliment each other VERY well. Using Teleport Homers/Locator Beacons to guid them in also works very well.

 

No one really sweats Scouts until they start bringing Terminators in.

[Giga]

Here are some reasons why I don't take shooty termies in my serious lists;

 

1) their shooting is subpar - stormbolters = bolters, dmgwise, and not many shots. A rapid firing tactical squad shoots better, simply put. Also, assault cannons/cyclone missile launchers cost a lot, and when all is said and done, I'm not sure they're exactly better then a free flamer+a free missile launcher. Or a free flamer+a cheap plasma cannon.

 

2) their anti-MC/vehicle capability is weak compared to the anti-MC/vehicle capability of th/ss terminators, which cost less and survive longer. The ability to have a chainfist is really nice, but is balanced by the th/ss capability to inflict shaken results or to lower initiative. And no, I don't think an assault cannon or a cyclone missile launcher are really that great a way to pop vehicles at range.

 

3) for their price, the shooty terminators just don't survive enough - one lucky plasma cannon shot and you're looking forward to losing 2-3 terminators in one go. Any lascannon, melta, or plasma wound inflicted on the shooty terminator squad has a huge chance of killing some termies. Their low initiative means you're very likely to lose termies before you even get to swing when fighting stuff like walkers, initiative 2 combat carnifexes, avatars, daemon princes, etc.

 

4) deep strike is really not such a great way to transport units, either too pricey (all those teleport homers cost a lot) or too luck-dependent. A land raider is the best termy transport.

 

When all this is said, you can see that shooty termies will have tuff time filling any important spot in one's army. There are better (and cheaper) anti-mc/vehicle, anti-infantry, and assault choices in the codex. Shooty termies are really there just for the fun factor. That storm bolter really should've been strength 5, to make their shooting worth it.

[Koremu]

The trick with deploying them via Deep Strike is, of course, to use their Power Fists on the turn they arrive as a deterent. With Teleport Homer precision you can put the enemy into a position where he can't engage anything ther than Terminators, which would be tantamount to suicide. If they get engaged by stuff that can hurt them badly, then yes, you're going to lose the Terminators.

 

They're not Assault Terminators and as such they are not going to stand up to full power weapon wielding units like Assault Termis can.

 

Also, Heavy Flamer with Precision Teleportation is entertaining.

 

And 10 Shooty Terminators + Lysander is awesome.

[Giga]

10 shooty termies + lysander costs 600 points. 660 with two spec weapons, and more if you get them power fists.

 

Entertaining, but not for serious play. :/

[Vedrial]

Here are some reasons why I don't take shooty termies in my serious lists;

 

1) their shooting is subpar - stormbolters = bolters, dmgwise, and not many shots. A rapid firing tactical squad shoots better, simply put. Also, assault cannons/cyclone missile launchers cost a lot, and when all is said and done, I'm not sure they're exactly better then a free flamer+a free missile launcher. Or a free flamer+a cheap plasma cannon.

 

A rapid firing Tactical Sqaud can't shoot 24", and has to worry about being charged the next turn. The Terminators, if they start within 12", can rapid fire and charge with 4 power fists and a power weapon.

 

2) their anti-MC/vehicle capability is weak compared to the anti-MC/vehicle capability of th/ss terminators, which cost less and survive longer. The ability to have a chainfist is really nice, but is balanced by the th/ss capability to inflict shaken results or to lower initiative. And no, I don't think an assault cannon or a cyclone missile launcher are really that great a way to pop vehicles at range.

 

The TH/SS Termies MUST have a Land Raider, increasing their cost by 240/250+ points. So no, they don't cost less. A Chainfist plus 3 Power Fists is pretty much going to wreck any vechicle out there, except maybe a Monolith, which the TH/SS is no better against. Experience teaches me that an Assault Cannon is, in fact, a highly effective anti-tank weapon. Against AV 12, a six on the armor penetration roll guarantees a Pen, and you've got 4 shots to do it, with 3 of those hitting more often than not.

 

3) for their price, the shooty terminators just don't survive enough - one lucky plasma cannon shot and you're looking forward to losing 2-3 terminators in one go. Any lascannon, melta, or plasma wound inflicted on the shooty terminator squad has a huge chance of killing some termies. Their low initiative means you're very likely to lose termies before you even get to swing when fighting stuff like walkers, initiative 2 combat carnifexes, avatars, daemon princes, etc.

 

Ok, the Shooty Termies just took a Plasma Cannon in the face. That's a plasma cannon shot off my Dread that is going to keep marching.

 

Plus, 5+ invul doesn't mean they're dead.

 

4) deep strike is really not such a great way to transport units, either too pricey (all those teleport homers cost a lot) or too luck-dependent. A land raider is the best termy transport.

 

Locator Beacon on a drop pod is 10 points. A Land Raider is 250 points. I'll take my 240 points and grab another Tactical Sqaud, thanks.

 

When all this is said, you can see that shooty termies will have tuff time filling any important spot in one's army. There are better (and cheaper) anti-mc/vehicle, anti-infantry, and assault choices in the codex. Shooty termies are really there just for the fun factor. That storm bolter really should've been strength 5, to make their shooting worth it.

 

There are few units who can be a tough and effective 2nd wave following the first turn assault as Tactical Termies. They draw attention and fire, which increases their usefulness far beyond their damage dealing capabilities. They keep the rest of your army live longer.

 

Their might be better and cheaper anti-mc/vehicle, anti-infantry, and assault choices in the codex, but Shooty Termies can fill all 3 roles, plus provide a synergy for the rest of your army that the other choices don't allow for.

 

Shooty Termies are Tactical Sqauds on steroids. They may not be the best at any one thing, but they're darned good at everything.

 

EDIT: I'll add in one more point. Dreadnaught in a Drop Pod with Locator Beacon, plus 5 Termies with Assault Cannon and Chainfist is 385 points.

 

I dare you to find a combo that's cheaper and more well rounded for a tough assault than that. And no, Assault Termies are not cheaper, being 450 points.

[Ryjak]

For everyone that actually uses Tactical Terminators with Dreadnoughts, how do you equip the dreadnoughts? What Heavy Weapon do you give the Terminators?

[Frosty the Pyro]

they come with power fists, there is no costing extra for them, and a heavy flamer is only 5 pts, tig is 230 though so it comes to 640, but tigurous is great in large games with his special rules.

[Vedrial]

For everyone that actually uses Tactical Terminators with Dreadnoughts, how do you equip the dreadnoughts? What Heavy Weapon do you give the Terminators?

 

Dreadnaught with default armaments (Multi-melta and DCCW w/ Storm Bolter) to target armor first. The Terminators get an Assault Cannon and a Chainfist for both anti-horde and anti-vehicle duty.

[Banville]

The wound allocation system has really hamstrung Shooty Termies. Should you lose the special weapon their effectiveness drops out of all proportion with their original points cost. The days of using the sarge as a bullet-catcher are over, unfortunately.

 

An 8 man Sternguard Squad with 4 combi-meltas is only 220 points for God's sake. Now that's a unit that will smoke anything it gets within 12" of, easily and without fear of assault next turn.

[Nehekhare]

the wound allocation system was invented by lysander, in fact :P

 

4 wounds with eternal warrior and SS for 3++ really helps keeping his termies alive, since ap2 hits seldomly come in packs of more than 2 per shooting squad (one of which would be sucked up by lys) exept for PCs (against which there is at least lys's fortification ability for a 3+ cover save, albeit static).

 

sternguard w/ combi-melta works for one vehicle...next turn, they're dead. but about the shoot/assault thing...4 meltas (3 will suffice btw)...shoot them at the tank and assault nothing or shoot bolters at the infantry and maybe never shoot the meltas at all? also, add some points for a transport to get within range.

[kaiserstole20]

10 shooty termies + lysander costs 600 points. 660 with two spec weapons, and more if you get them power fists.

 

Entertaining, but not for serious play. :/

 

I think Lysander + 10 Shooty Terminators can be competitive in games as small as 1500 points. Lysander is a must for me when I take shooty terminators. He adds greatly to their survivability as well as giving them a huge CC boost and the entire army Stubborn. The bolter drill is just a nice to have bonus. If you take CMLs you are re-rolling misses on 20 dice.

[Giga]

A rapid firing Tactical Sqaud can't shoot 24", and has to worry about being charged the next turn. The Terminators, if they start within 12", can rapid fire and charge with 4 power fists and a power weapon.

A rapid firing tactical squad CAN shoot 24". Actually, it can shoot 26".

 

Rhino moves 12".

 

Marines disembark 2".

 

Rapid fire ahoy!

The TH/SS Termies MUST have a Land Raider, increasing their cost by 240/250+ points. So no, they don't cost less. A Chainfist plus 3 Power Fists is pretty much going to wreck any vechicle out there, except maybe a Monolith, which the TH/SS is no better against. Experience teaches me that an Assault Cannon is, in fact, a highly effective anti-tank weapon. Against AV 12, a six on the armor penetration roll guarantees a Pen, and you've got 4 shots to do it, with 3 of those hitting more often than not.

TBH, th/ss termies are actually likelier to survive after deepstriking close to the enemy then shooty termies are.

 

Also, th/ss termies aren't gonna be decimated by higher initiative opposition. A carnifex with I2 will drop a ton of armor-ignoring attacks on termies, and these you won't have much chance of saving with your shooty termies.

 

Also, as far as I'm concerned, all termies need land raider transport. Deep striking for termies is more of a fun thing for me. Not to be relied on in serious lists (it is, after all, an essential unit placed in reserve).

Ok, the Shooty Termies just took a Plasma Cannon in the face. That's a plasma cannon shot off my Dread that is going to keep marching.

 

Plus, 5+ invul doesn't mean they're dead.

Your dread is gonna be blasted by melta, anyway. :cuss

 

5+ invul means they're quite dead, or at least rendered ineffective... Unless you're being hideously lucky.

Locator Beacon on a drop pod is 10 points. A Land Raider is 250 points. I'll take my 240 points and grab another Tactical Sqaud, thanks.

You horribly underestimate land raiders... But that has been discussed to death in other topics, already.

Their might be better and cheaper anti-mc/vehicle, anti-infantry, and assault choices in the codex, but Shooty Termies can fill all 3 roles, plus provide a synergy for the rest of your army that the other choices don't allow for.

That's all fine, but do I really need more generalists in an army of generalists? Also, it's the kind of generalists that doesn't do anything really well AND relies on reserve roll and deep strike scatter (your teleport homers/locator beacons can be taken out, you know) AND can be taken out with just a little good luck on the opponent's side... Just not my cup of tea. SM armies (where I play, at least) benefit a lot more from having more specialized stuff.

 

Ofc, in the end it's all up to experience. If it works for you, you should use shooty termies. Where I play, when someone brings shooty termies to the table, it usually means they're beginners and will get stomped, so that's what I'm basing my opinion of.

[kaiserstole20]

when someone brings MARINES to the table, it usually means they're beginners and will get stomped, so that's what I'm basing my opinion of.

 

FTFY :D

 

Shooty terminators are in greater abundance due to AoBR meaning more new guys have them along with a force that is inappropriate for using them.

 

FWIW, I almost never deep strike terminators. My guys are walking up the board and blasting away from turn 1.

[Brother Icipher]

For me, the fatal weakness of Tactical terminators is striking at I1. This means that everyone else has already put their licks in, and if the opponent has power weapon attacks, you are only getting a 5+ against it. Conversely, the Thunder Hammer terminators, while also striking at I1, get a 3+ save against power weapons from their Storm Shields. The simple fact is that expensive models can't afford to strike last unless they have a very good chance of surviving long enough to do so. Tactical terminators just aren't survivable enough in CC to be worth it. The TH/SS ones are worth it thanks to the shield.

[kaiserstole20]

For me, the fatal weakness of Tactical terminators is striking at I1. This means that everyone else has already put their licks in, and if the opponent has power weapon attacks, you are only getting a 5+ against it. Conversely, the Thunder Hammer terminators, while also striking at I1, get a 3+ save against power weapons from their Storm Shields. The simple fact is that expensive models can't afford to strike last unless they have a very good chance of surviving long enough to do so. Tactical terminators just aren't survivable enough in CC to be worth it. The TH/SS ones are worth it thanks to the shield.

 

There's no doubt that assault terminators are better in CC than shooty terminators. The key for me is to keep them out of CC as long as possible. I move and shoot to keep them away from nasty CC units while I work on eliminating them through firepower.

[Banville]

That's the crux of the matter, though. They're firepower isn't exactly fantastic. You get more bang for your buck from Tactical Squads and Sternguard than from shooty termies. Don't get me wrong, they look fantastic and everything, but they just aren't very good. Unless, like everything, you spam them.

[kaiserstole20]

That's the crux of the matter, though. They're firepower isn't exactly fantastic. You get more bang for your buck from Tactical Squads and Sternguard than from shooty termies. Don't get me wrong, they look fantastic and everything, but they just aren't very good. Unless, like everything, you spam them.

 

I suppose we're never going to come together on this one. Especially with the proliferation of AP3 weaponry I think they add a great element to my army and I've been successful with them, especially with Lysander attached.

[Giga]

There's no doubt that assault terminators are better in CC than shooty terminators. The key for me is to keep them out of CC as long as possible. I move and shoot to keep them away from nasty CC units while I work on eliminating them through firepower.

TBH, shooty termies shooting is quite pathetic for their cost.

 

What, 5 models shooting 8 bolter shots and 4 assault cannon shots... for 230 pts, and only 24" overall range?

 

Sorry, there's a lot of shootier stuff you can get for 240 pts. Predators, speeders, attack bikes, sternguard, a single land raider, etc. are all likely to be doing more damage in shooting then a squad of 5 shooty termies. Some will actually have a lot more firepower (3 attack bikes with multimeltas cost 150 pts, and they get 3 multimetla shots and 3 twinlinked bolters, and toughness 5), while costing less.

 

Tac terminators are like tac squads... They can't do anything very well, but at least tac squads get lots of bodies + they're scoring.

[kaiserstole20]

There's no doubt that assault terminators are better in CC than shooty terminators. The key for me is to keep them out of CC as long as possible. I move and shoot to keep them away from nasty CC units while I work on eliminating them through firepower.

TBH, shooty termies shooting is quite pathetic for their cost.

 

What, 5 models shooting 8 bolter shots and 4 assault cannon shots... for 230 pts, and only 24" overall range?

 

Sorry, there's a lot of shootier stuff you can get for 240 pts. Predators, speeders, attack bikes, sternguard, a single land raider, etc. are all likely to be doing more damage in shooting then a squad of 5 shooty termies. Some will actually have a lot more firepower (3 attack bikes with multimeltas cost 150 pts, and they get 3 multimetla shots and 3 twinlinked bolters, and toughness 5), while costing less.

 

Tac terminators are like tac squads... They can't do anything very well, but at least tac squads get lots of bodies + they're scoring.

 

And here we go in a circle. Yep, there's a lot of stuff shootier. None of that stuff has power fists or a 2+/5+ save. "But there's choppier stuff too" Yep, but none of that stuff has storm bolters and CMLs. I find that having generalist units in with some specialist units helps my overall game plan and provides flexibility.

 

Like I said in the post prior to this one, we're not going to come together on this issue. Shooty terminators work well for me and do for other posters as well.

[Captain Idaho]

I rarely use Terminators due to my inability to make 2+ saves. Seriously, out of 6 saves I generally fail 3 almost every time! ;)

 

Brother Tual made a good suggestion that he uses to great effectiveness. He uses a unit of 10 and often accompanies them with Calgar, making the unit very powerful. Main reanon being you can kill 5 and still have to take 10 powerfist hits back plus Calgar.

 

I'm tempted to try Calgar accompanied with Terminators up the table, firing as they go and then getting Calgar to charge in and munch an enemy.

 

I think they have their place as a good reserve, being difficult to deal with at range for assault armies or held in reserve so later in the game while your opponent is off attacking your objective you can deepstrike by theirs and dispute it.