Rites of battle vs Necron soulless

[Commander Sasha]

Using Sammy, I get Rites of Battle, ie all my guys may use his leadership value of 10.

 

Necron Pariahs have a rule called 'Soulless': any enemy within 12" counts as Ld7.

 

I think I still get Ld10, as whatever the Pariahs do to my squad's leadership, Sammy allows them to use his.

 

I'm sure my Necron friend will disagree!

 

Has anyone discussed this before, and come out with a resolution?

[MrTrain]

I would say that his Necron guy drops the printed leadership value down to 7, then Sammy's ability allows your units to use his 10 leadership. So long as Sammy is out of range of the Necron, you should be okay. But I could very well be wrong...

[Chaplain Lucifer]

Yes indeed. Souless says models get their leadership reduced to 7, but with GM present they use rites of battle, meaning they test on masters leadership, not their own.

[SeattleDV8]

Souless does not reduce the Ld, it Counts As Ld7 (unless lower).

I tend to believe that it bypasses Rite of Battle.

[atra angelus]

Rites of Battle says anyone can use the characters Ld value, pg36 C:DA. The unit near the Necrons could have Ld-900, Ld 1, Ld100, Ld9000 doesnt matter. If RoB is on the table, they can roll as if using the character's Ld (10 in this case). Now if the RoB guy was near, different story perhaps, but case as stated in OP youd roll with 10. Its pretty cut and dry really.

[Isiah]

Now if the RoB guy was near, different story perhaps, but case as stated in OP youd roll with 10. Its pretty cut and dry really.

 

No (for the reasons below). I agree with SeattleDV8 on this that Rites of Battle is overrided by Souless.

 

Using Sammy, I get Rites of Battle, ie all my guys may use his leadership value of 10.

 

Necron Pariahs have a rule called 'Soulless': any enemy within 12" counts as Ld7.

 

I think I still get Ld10, as whatever the Pariahs do to my squad's leadership, Sammy allows them to use his.

 

A unit only gets the Ld that Soulless allows them to have: which is whatever their Ld value was originally or is conferred upon them by Sammy, and than that is then subsequently modified by counts as Ld7 if they are within 12".

 

"Counts as" is the important bit, as this means that no matter what Ld they actually have, it always "Counts as" Ld7.

 

Cheers

I

[atra angelus]

Well, I suppose it depends on your interpretation of 'may use' vs 'counts as' and how they interact. I had a reply up, reread my reply, reread both abilities again, and decided to just leave it as is in the first post. Nothing in either gw/inat faq over it so, worst case can use a dice off over it. Im confident in my own reading of it for my games, but if an opponent didnt agree this is a much better dice off than a lot of questions one might come up with over codex interactions.

[Isiah]

This is an interesting topic of interaction, so I'm moving over to the OR section for wider exposure.

[Souchan]

I've always played it as rites wins unless the commander is within the soulless area himself, then anyone who'd want to use it could only use his LD7(so would usually just use their own instead).

 

Much like Mob Rule vs Soulless, GW hasn't made clear statements on how to look at such abilities conflicting. I just hope when the soulless rule finally gets a 5th update(either Nec or Inq dex) they'll cover such issues.

[Captain Malachi]

I'll have to agree with those saying that RoB wins out. Soulless makes the unit count as having LD7, but they aren't using that leadership value are they? They're using Sammy's. Sammy's rule doesn't say they get LD10, it says they use whatever his leadership is, their actual stat line value is ignored for that.

[ShinyRhino]

The crux of the argument seems to be a "chicken versus egg" thing. Which happens FIRST? The reduction to 7 via Souless, or the replacement with Ld10 from Rites? If the Souless is applied first, RoB wins. If RoB is applied first, Souless wins.

It'll come down to a dice-off.

[Grey Mage]

Theres always the WFB conflict solution- at the start of each turn, roll a d6- 4+ the one works, otherwise it the other takes precedence.

[Freakiq]

The crux of the argument seems to be a "chicken versus egg" thing. Which happens FIRST? The reduction to 7 via Souless, or the replacement with Ld10 from Rites? If the Souless is applied first, RoB wins. If RoB is applied first, Souless wins.

It'll come down to a dice-off.

 

But the RoB leadership can't be reduced unless the Commander himself is within the soulless aura.

 

Even though the space marines only have a leadership of 7 because of soulless they can use the leadership of the commander which (in this example) is more than 12" away from the Pariahs.

[SeattleDV8]

Again, Souless does not reduce or modify the units Ld.

It makes it 'Count As' as long as the unit is in range.

RoB allows the unit to use the Ld value of 10 for the test but because the unit is within 12" it Counts As Ld7.

[Captain Malachi]

As I said, the unit has LD7, no-one is disagreeing with that. However, they aren't using their leadership, they're using the commanders, and he has LD10. Unless you can find something in the RoB rule that says their leadership becomes 10, or find something in the soulless rule that says the commanders leadership becomes 7, it seems pretty clear to me.

 

Edit- Edited out something I wasn't entirely sure on until I can check it.

[Frosty the Pyro]

I side with souless takeing precidence, not real RAW or RAI argument, I just feal the game is better if its that way. On a side note, pariahs suck and need all the help they can get.

 

On a side note the way I work things like rights of battle and the assorted guard vox network things is it sets the respective units ld to that of the ld its using, thus modifiers still aply. The way yall are working it you could lose a combat by 40 and still make your ld check on 10.

[nighthawks]

with DV8 on this one.

 

the unit affected by soulless is not "reduced" to Ld 7, at which point they could still use RoB, they "count as" Ld 7. it doesn't matter what their leadership is or whos they could use, they "count as" Ld7 while in range.

 

as as a note of support to the gaming side, as Frosty said, necrons really do need the help...

[atra angelus]

The way yall are working it you could lose a combat by 40 and still make your ld check on 10.

Not really. Rites says use the Ld for the check, the assault rules say take the check at -X. The two very clearly work together as neither interferes with the other: take the check at the characters Ld and then make it at -X. What you describe is Stubborn, not RoB.

 

Soulless says the units Ld counts as 7. Rites says may use characters Ld. Theres two ways of going here. Inferring that 'may use' means 'fully in place of their own stat', meaning soulless would overwrite it; or inferring that 'may use' means choosing between ld values to independently check at the characters Ld plus whatever modifiers, and soulless doesnt modify the character so it is bypassed.

 

Soulless overwrites Stubborn, as its not a modifier but a 'count as'. Soulless doesnt overwrite Fearless, although it would change the Ld value the unit would remain unaffected (barring psychic tests or whatever). With RoB and no 'official' faq ruling, either side can be pretty well represented. Its a matter of how you interpret the intent of 'may use'.

 

Since the Morale section clearly states to use individual unit Lds, I view RoB as giving the option of using a different units Ld (since it doesnt do exactly what soulless does and go and change any profile characteristics; it says to use another units ld and that is the explicit change from raw not the characteristic changing; very clearly in my eyes its a unit substitution not a value substitution). Basically what would read:

"Morale [tests] are taken by rolling 2d6 and comparing the total to the unit's leadership value." (black reach rulebook)

combines with

"...dark angels units may use his leadership for [tests]" (da codex)

and turns into

"Morale [tests] are taken by rolling 2d6 and comparing the total to the [rites of battle unit's] leadership value." (me)

 

However its not illogical to instead come up with

"Morale [tests] are taken by rolling 2d6 and comparing the total to the unit's leadership value [which is now equal to rob's ld]."

instead, if you simply view it with the other interpretation. I dont think thats correct, but its certainly not illogical, so Id dice over it.

 

So in the end, does 'may use' mean "in place of their own Ld value" or "instead to their own Ld value"? In place of, or instead of, you decide! =p

 

(edit, cut and paste attributed a quote incorrectly, post otherwise unchanged)

[Freakiq]

with DV8 on this one.

 

the unit affected by soulless is not "reduced" to Ld 7, at which point they could still use RoB, they "count as" Ld 7. it doesn't matter what their leadership is or whos they could use, they "count as" Ld7 while in range.

 

as as a note of support to the gaming side, as Frosty said, necrons really do need the help...

 

But does it matter what their leadership is when they don't even have to roll against their own leadership?

 

I'm a Necron player myself and would appreciate any boost but I feel this is grasping at straws.

[nighthawks]

as I see it - the way soulless is worded, the unit makes checks against Ld 7 if they would normally or somehow otherwise (RoB) use a higher Ld value. thus "counts as." they may use RoB and use the Ld of 10, but they still "count as" having Ld 7.

 

I suppose it is semantics, as astra angela stated above. both can easily be read to perform the same function, and there is no rule for what takes precedence between "counts as having" and "may use" - one man's logic says 7 then 10, another's says whatever then 7. I'm sure there are crafty logicians out there who can argue it from a textbook standpoint, but most of us speak more colloquially and will read it differently, if only slightly.

 

dice it.

 

grey area?

[Grey Mage]

Soulless makes their LD count as LD 7

Sicarious' rites of battle makes their LD count as 10 for most intents and purposes.

 

So either they are in direct conflict and you should dice off *MHO*

OR

Sicarious lets them use his leadership of 10- their own leadership counts as 7, however it doesnt matter as his leadership still counts as 10, and they are using his, not their own. Poor wording perhaps... but there it is.

[Isiah]

Despite my feeling that no matter what a unit's Ld actually is, RoB or statline, Souless always makes it "count as" something else. In effect the unit is still using the RoB confered Ld, but it's just been 'revised' by the counts as mod.

 

It is though a grey area topic to be sure.

[nighthawks]

Added to the Grey Areas thread.

[ValourousHeart]

While this is a great questions, it may be moot depending on the troops you are using.

RW are fearless... so it really doesn't matter for them what leadership you say the get as they never have to roll anyway.

 

I feel that the RoB would win this one, because this rule represents the commander giving orders over the comlink to all of the units.

If Sammie is in the Soulless range, then his RoB rule would be affected.

But if he is outside of the souless range then he is unaffected and is clear to give his orders... thereby giving his leadership to the units.

[Frosty the Pyro]

While this is a great questions, it may be moot depending on the troops you are using.

RW are fearless... so it really doesn't matter for them what leadership you say the get as they never have to roll anyway.

 

I feel that the RoB would win this one, because this rule represents the commander giving orders over the comlink to all of the units.

If Sammie is in the Soulless range, then his RoB rule would be affected.

But if he is outside of the souless range then he is unaffected and is clear to give his orders... thereby giving his leadership to the units.

 

Thats all fine and dandy but by fluff souless most definatly wins, sure Sam is clear to give orders, but you are NOT clear to follow them, you have an unnatural force effecting your judgement. Thats like saying if a sober person tells you which way to steer driving drunk is compeltely fine.

 

The problem comes by the RAW on weather or not "using sammies leadership" means that regarless of what happens to you you have sammies leadership, or if it means you set your leadership equal to sammies (10). It is easily arguable eather way, and unless GW FAW/Errata is there is no real way of knowing, because GW doesnt beleive in consitant, or defined syntax in their rule books.