Hotspur Posted June 25, 2009 Share Posted June 25, 2009 Just wondering if anybody out there might have the actual rules for Bjorn the Fellhanded? I've been trying, most unsuccessfully, to find them on the web. I have the most recent codex, but I would just like to know what Bjorn was all about before our current dex came out. Thanks! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/171871-bjorn-the-fellhanded/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
LPetersson Posted June 25, 2009 Share Posted June 25, 2009 Lightning claw, heavy flamer & assault cannon Front armour was 19-21 and side/rear was 17-19 depending on where you hit him. He had a pretty cool rule where you rolled a D6 at the beginning of the game, and that was the number of points you could subtract from the vehicle damage table throughout the game to a minimum of 1. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/171871-bjorn-the-fellhanded/#findComment-2031435 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Mage Posted June 25, 2009 Share Posted June 25, 2009 Very nice. Was that each shot, or over the course of the game? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/171871-bjorn-the-fellhanded/#findComment-2031607 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beef Posted June 25, 2009 Share Posted June 25, 2009 Those are 2nd edition rules and unfortunatly now defunct. Hopefully he will make an appearance in the new codex for he has slumbered long enough Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/171871-bjorn-the-fellhanded/#findComment-2031619 Share on other sites More sharing options...
LPetersson Posted June 26, 2009 Share Posted June 26, 2009 Very nice. Was that each shot, or over the course of the game? That was a total for the course of the game. When those points were out, that was that... I want him back so much. He was one of the reasons I got into the wolves... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/171871-bjorn-the-fellhanded/#findComment-2031899 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Chaplain Darius Posted June 26, 2009 Share Posted June 26, 2009 If I recall, assault cannons were insane in that edition, and you got an insane number of shots. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/171871-bjorn-the-fellhanded/#findComment-2031912 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vassakov Posted June 26, 2009 Share Posted June 26, 2009 Current speculation puts him at 14-14-(14?, though could be 12/11) WS could be 7+, BS is likely to be at least 5. Some kind of Special DCCW and probably a souped up Assault Cannon given the recent trend for an "upgraded" normal gun on SC's (Calgar, Kantor, He'Stan et al.) Some kind of snazzy special rule as an overhaul of our current VD rules, plus Venerable. The downside? Could be around 300pts.... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/171871-bjorn-the-fellhanded/#findComment-2031948 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max_Dammit Posted June 26, 2009 Share Posted June 26, 2009 Removed the stat line, Dont post stats or point costs Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/171871-bjorn-the-fellhanded/#findComment-2031952 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smadders Posted June 26, 2009 Share Posted June 26, 2009 bloody inquisition... :) He sounds awesome, 300pts or not, he's going in. What would be hilarious would be in a 500pt battle: Bjorn 2 x 6 Grey Hunters lol. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/171871-bjorn-the-fellhanded/#findComment-2031994 Share on other sites More sharing options...
LPetersson Posted June 26, 2009 Share Posted June 26, 2009 Removed the stat line, Dont post stats or point costs Ok, sorry :yes: I thought it was ok when it was for a previous outdated edition... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/171871-bjorn-the-fellhanded/#findComment-2032029 Share on other sites More sharing options...
LPetersson Posted June 26, 2009 Share Posted June 26, 2009 bloody inquisition... :tu: He sounds awesome, 300pts or not, he's going in. Totally :yes: What would be hilarious would be in a 500pt battle: Bjorn 2 x 6 Grey Hunters lol. Agreed, but hopefully he'll only be allowed in games over 2000 or 2500 points... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/171871-bjorn-the-fellhanded/#findComment-2032030 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vassakov Posted June 26, 2009 Share Posted June 26, 2009 bloody inquisition... :tu: He sounds awesome, 300pts or not, he's going in. Totally :yes: What would be hilarious would be in a 500pt battle: Bjorn 2 x 6 Grey Hunters lol. Agreed, but hopefully he'll only be allowed in games over 2000 or 2500 points... Hmmm... Only for larger games for me. At 1500pts I'd rather have two standard Dreads, or one standard and an Ironclad. That said, that army list could be fun, if a little evil. @ LPeterson - GW seem to be removing any and all limits on IC's, presumably to shift masses of models. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/171871-bjorn-the-fellhanded/#findComment-2032032 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Mage Posted June 26, 2009 Share Posted June 26, 2009 Eh, if theyre properly playtested *I know, its one heck of an assumption* mosts SCs should be just as balanced at 500 as they are at 2000. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/171871-bjorn-the-fellhanded/#findComment-2032131 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vassakov Posted June 26, 2009 Share Posted June 26, 2009 Eh, if theyre properly playtested. :) Play.... tested? What is this of which you spake? Surely it is not something you expect from GW? :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/171871-bjorn-the-fellhanded/#findComment-2032213 Share on other sites More sharing options...
LPetersson Posted June 26, 2009 Share Posted June 26, 2009 @ LPeterson - GW seem to be removing any and all limits on IC's, presumably to shift masses of models. So they have :-o How lame. I'm not a big fan of building an army list based on fluff unless agreed on with my opponent, but I still can't bring myself to bring Ragnar in battles under 2500 or Logan in games under 3000. I even wince at bringing a generic Wolf Lord in games under 2000... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/171871-bjorn-the-fellhanded/#findComment-2032368 Share on other sites More sharing options...
The God Emperor Posted June 27, 2009 Share Posted June 27, 2009 My god, 5 shots STR6 AP2 Assault Cannon and a lightning claw that gives rending a la Shrike's. Model wise, I reckon he should have Heresy-era Dreadnought suits instead of post-heresy suits or at least heavily modified heresy-era suit. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/171871-bjorn-the-fellhanded/#findComment-2032802 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted June 27, 2009 Share Posted June 27, 2009 The current rules for Bjorn can be found on page 7 of Codex Space Wolves. Comparing the Stats of 2nd Edition Bjorn to other Dreadnoughts, Bjorn has a higher WS and more attacks. The venerable dreadnought has that. Bjorn also had a special rule to reduce damage. The venerable Dreadnough has that too. The Ultramarine and Angels of Death Codices have no dreadnought data sheets, so I could not compare the armour value of Bjorn with a regular dreadnought. Compared to a Chaos Dread his arms and legs have 1 point more armour in the front but 1 point lower armoru in the side and rear. The torso has the same armour all around. So, yeah, page 7 has the rules for Bjorn. Edit: Upon further investigation it seems that Bjorn had the same armour values as a standard dreadnought. So I really don't know where the 14/14/X speculations come from. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/171871-bjorn-the-fellhanded/#findComment-2032815 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valerian Posted June 28, 2009 Share Posted June 28, 2009 The current rules for Bjorn can be found on page 7 of Codex Space Wolves. Comparing the Stats of 2nd Edition Bjorn to other Dreadnoughts, Bjorn has a higher WS and more attacks. The venerable dreadnought has that. Bjorn also had a special rule to reduce damage. The venerable Dreadnough has that too. The Ultramarine and Angels of Death Codices have no dreadnought data sheets, so I could not compare the armour value of Bjorn with a regular dreadnought. Compared to a Chaos Dread his arms and legs have 1 point more armour in the front but 1 point lower armoru in the side and rear. The torso has the same armour all around. So, yeah, page 7 has the rules for Bjorn. Legatus, has it. He is right on here. Essentially, in the transition to 3rd edition, they took a concept that was unique (Bjorn, the original "venerable" dreadnought) and made it generic. This was further generalized when other Space Marine forces were allowed access to a venerable dreadnought option as well. Now it seems, if rumours are true, the designers intend to reinstate the original stature of Bjorn as a unique "special character" for the Space Wolves. It is probable, then, that he will have some advantages over other dreadnoughts, to include even the venerable dreadnoughts of other chapters. We shall see, but I remain hopeful, Valerian Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/171871-bjorn-the-fellhanded/#findComment-2033456 Share on other sites More sharing options...
OnlyInDeath Posted June 28, 2009 Share Posted June 28, 2009 I personally thing GW has enough fluff geeks on staff (god I wish I were one) to realize the fact that Bjorn, even in dread form, is THE single oldest dude in existence besides a chaos marine or a primarch. In the loyalist forces, nothign superceeds him in age. He is a badass, his dreadnought armor comes from an age where technology was more badass, and he himself was 2nd in command to Russ himself, which makes him more badass than a chapter master. There is NOTHING in his fluff which says that he should be less than his newer brothers as far as a vendread goes. Bjorn is THE orginal badass (westcoast style) and woe to the foe who thinks they can take him on. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/171871-bjorn-the-fellhanded/#findComment-2033460 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valerian Posted June 28, 2009 Share Posted June 28, 2009 I personally thing GW has enough fluff geeks on staff (god I wish I were one) to realize the fact that Bjorn, even in dread form, is THE single oldest dude in existence besides a chaos marine or a primarch. Well, please don't forget the remnants of the entire 13th Great Company. We wouldn't want to forget all of those wolf-brothers, after all. But, otherwise, I afree with your sentiments. Valerian Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/171871-bjorn-the-fellhanded/#findComment-2033470 Share on other sites More sharing options...
OnlyInDeath Posted June 28, 2009 Share Posted June 28, 2009 Well, even then, Bjorn felt every one of those 10,000 years. The 13th Co. could be aruged to have experienced less time passage due to the odd current of time within the eye of terror (yes, the chaos marines are thousands of years old). Keep in mind that Bjorn was around as a captain for a long, long time. Even chaos marines might be considered more than "old" to their loyalist counterparts. Bjorn actually has made appearances in the last 10,000 years.... And Bjorn is, hands down, THE oldest loyalist alive, besides a primarch or the emperor himself. That is not something to forget, when considering the "old and wise" upgraded rule. There is NONE that is older and wiser than Bjorn (ie, optimus prime) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/171871-bjorn-the-fellhanded/#findComment-2033483 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valerian Posted June 28, 2009 Share Posted June 28, 2009 OID, Even though I love Bjorn as much as the next Space Wolves player, I'll have to disagree with some of your assessments. I give him full props, but want to be accurate with regards to the "fluff". I'll put my reasoning below. Well, even then, Bjorn felt every one of those 10,000 years. The 13th Co. could be aruged to have experienced less time passage due to the odd current of time within the eye of terror (yes, the chaos marines are thousands of years old). Bjorn hasn't really "felt" every one of those 10,000 years - he spends the vast majority of the time asleep. He is awakened occasionally to test the Rune Priests on their knowledge of the ancient sagas, and in the event of emergencies where his wisdom, power, and leadership is needed. The 13th Co. certainly experience the odd passage of Warp Time, just as much as any Traitor Chaos Marine who has fled to the Eye of Terror, where Warp Space spills into Real Space. There is no way to assess how much time individual 13th Company Space Wolves have "felt", but they were all alive at the same time as Bjorn, and fought with him and Leman Russ before and during the Heresy. One could easily argue that an individual 13th Company Marine, such as Jorin Bloodfang, the Wolf Lord of the Great Company, may have experienced more actual passage of time than the usually slumbering Bjorn; there is no way to know for sure either way. And Bjorn is, hands down, THE oldest loyalist alive, besides a primarch or the emperor himself. That is not something to forget, when considering the "old and wise" upgraded rule. There is NONE that is older and wiser than Bjorn (ie, optimus prime) Again, I don't necessarily think that this is "hands down". If you are simply trying to assess who has the earliest birth date, there are any number of 13th company leadership and veterans who could have been born earlier. If you are trying to assess who has experienced more age/passage of time, there is no way to tell, as I have discussed above the issues of Warp Time for the 13th versus Sleepy Time for Bjorn. Keep in mind that Bjorn was around as a captain for a long, long time. Was Bjorn a "captain"? I don't have my stuff here with me at work, but If I remember my fluff right, Bjorn was one of Russ' bodyguard, and closest companions. He was not, however, one of the Great Company Wolf Lords, despite his being elevated to Great Wolf upon Russ' departure. Even chaos marines might be considered more than "old" to their loyalist counterparts. Not sure what you mean here, unless you meant that they "might be considered {little more than} old to their...." Regardless, I am enjoying the discussion, and hopefully awaiting Bjorn's return. Likewise, I am hoping for the inclusion of the 13th Company into the list somehow. I have always appreciated their list, with its focus on elite Infantry and absence of any vehicle support (as it should be for all Marine armies, in my humble opinion). Best regards, Valerian Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/171871-bjorn-the-fellhanded/#findComment-2033509 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skalver Posted June 28, 2009 Share Posted June 28, 2009 There is NONE that is older and wiser than Bjorn (ie, optimus prime) Well, since Optimus Prime is somewhere between 9 and 12 million years old, Bjorn is to Optimus Prime as a month old baby is to a 90 year old man. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/171871-bjorn-the-fellhanded/#findComment-2033510 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted June 28, 2009 Share Posted June 28, 2009 Bjorn (i.e. the Space Wolves Venerable Dreadnought) actually still has a few advantages over a Codex Marine Venerable Dreadnought. - More attacks - Re-roll who gets first turn - Can be used as Elite or HQ So really the only thing GW needs to do to make him "Bjorn" again in the new Codex is to take away all the weapon options and equip him with the traditional Assault Cannon, Heavy Flamer, DCCW. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/171871-bjorn-the-fellhanded/#findComment-2033515 Share on other sites More sharing options...
OnlyInDeath Posted June 28, 2009 Share Posted June 28, 2009 There is NONE that is older and wiser than Bjorn (ie, optimus prime) Well, since Optimus Prime is somewhere between 9 and 12 million years old, Bjorn is to Optimus Prime as a month old baby is to a 90 year old man. The comparison was to Optimus in that Bjorn is old and wise, sheesh... :mellow: I gotta say Val, I do agree with you on many points. And actually some members of the 13th Co. are most likely older than Bjorn, as he was the "youngest" of Russ' retainers when Russ left (however, to be a trusted retainer, I'd have to assume he's not exactly "young"), so fair enough. And captain was just a misnomer. he was a retainer and then after 7 years of no primarch, elected to great wolf. I guess my arguement is the 13th Co. are kinda still going about thier mission in the Eye and Bjorn is more an integral part of the Space Wolves. Yes, he's typically just sleeping, but he's the only wolf around who wakes up and starts talking tales of his romps with the Primarch. And besides the members of the 13th, which only appear in the material galaxy from time to time, Bjorn is the only person (to use the term loosely) who can harken back to the time of primarchs, except chaos marines and the Fallen. So in terms of loyalists, I do consider him pretty damn sweet as he's a walking talking connection to the past. I guess our discussion in the end is rather moot, as it doesnt matter how old and wise the 13th Co are, they arent dreadnaughts :P. Bjorn is, and I hope that GW, in making the new rules, remembers that Bjorn has fought as a dread for something like 500 years before he started sleeping more, and has sat counsel with Russ himself, so would obviously be far more badass than a standard vendread. I think making him a 200 point walking landraider would be fair for one of the coolest (IMO) characters out there. I also wouldn't be surprised to see Bulveye (sp) in the new dex either, to represent those who love their 13th Co., and maybe some additional fluff to come along with him ^_^ Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/171871-bjorn-the-fellhanded/#findComment-2033752 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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