Should we fear the Vendetta?

[minigun762]

I hear scary things about these, mobile LasCannon spammers that are about the same price as our Predators (depending on weapon loadout) or a pair of Obliterators.

 

Has anyone been on the recieving end of them and does the reality live up to the hype?

[Brother Selacuos]

A friend of mine has been using one for a couple of games now the only threat it really presents is to non-land raider vehicles. it is pretty easy to destroy its base makes it visible from almost everywhere. the stormtroopers it deploys makes me reasonably worried but destroying the vendetta quickly should eliminate this quickly.

[Gornall]

They're pretty nasty as an alpha strike, since they can often get side armor with no cover save. They definately have to be dealt with very quickly or you'll find anything vulnerable to Lascannons (AV12 or less IMO) will be smoking wrecks.

[Vel'Cona]

Three thoughts on the Vendetta:

 

1. They can only move and fire 1 TL Lascannon at a time if they want the "moving fast" cover save. If they only move 6", they're easy prey for long range anti-tank. Also, still BS3 so TL LC still has a 25% or so miss chance.

 

2. More expensive than a Valkyrie by a good bit. Also, lacking in anti-infantry (unless side-upgraded) so not that scary for Orks and Nids.

 

3. The Valkyrie model doesn't come with the bits to convert this. The Forgeworld upgrade hasn't released yet, either, and the whole package comes to about 75-80 bucks (or more, yes really). Each. Converting the existing model would still require nilla LR or Predator bits, and a bit of puttying/fiddling. If my opponent walks up to a table with 3 or more of these, I'll be asking him to pay for dinner <_<

 

All that said, they're still a nasty unit. I personally can't see an IG player taking them exclusively, though, as LC aren't the tank hunting weapons they once were, and Valks have quite a few advantages in the long run. Even in a heavy flying mechanized list, I wouldn't take more than 2 or so. YRMV

[Fintan]

1. They can only move and fire 1 TL Lascannon at a time if they want the "moving fast" cover save. If they only move 6", they're easy prey for long range anti-tank. Also, still BS3 so TL LC still has a 25% or so miss chance.

 

I thought that to get to cover save required you moving flat out? In which case you get to fire no weapons.

[Vissah]

Yeah you need to go flat out that is minimum 18 inch maximum 24 inch and you are not allowed to fire any weapon when you do that.

[minigun762]

What I'm seeing alot of is squadrons of 2-3 that fly around taking side shots at armor and its an impressive amount of firepower.

2 Vendettas will put out 6 TL LasCannon shots. Thats 4.5 hits and against AV11 (typical side armor) you're looking at a dead Rhino/Vindicator/Predator. Even our famed Obliterators would crumbe against that firepower.

[Fintan]

What I'm seeing alot of is squadrons of 2-3 that fly around taking side shots at armor and its an impressive amount of firepower.

2 Vendettas will put out 6 TL LasCannon shots. Thats 4.5 hits and against AV11 (typical side armor) you're looking at a dead Rhino/Vindicator/Predator. Even our famed Obliterators would crumbe against that firepower.

 

Yes but how many points are they each? I'm guessing their armour isn't above AV13, which means flying around in Squadrons is going to result in a LOT of dead Vendettas. Penetrate them with a melta weapon and you only need to roll a 3+ to kill one of them! Personally I still fear AP3 Ordnance from 48 inches away more at the moment but I suppose if you played a completely mechanised list it might be worth considering focus-firing them at the start of the game.

[Cornishman]

Fear? No. Respect? Yes. Granted whether alone, or as a Squadron they can bring alot of T-L LC's to bear. How ever armour 12 to front and 10 to sides isn't great, to maximise firepower requires moving a maximium of 6" which leaves them extremely open to return fire. If you get shots at thier side armour they'll drop like flies, with even a humble bolter potentially damaging them if you avoid front armour.

 

That said those shots they make before being downed is going to hurt any armour... But this means that they aren't shooting other things, and if you have a squadron, well that is an awefull lot of firepower for a single dead tank. If they are going against infantry, well even with PA I often hug cover for precisely this reason.

[Gornall]

Their armor is 12/12/10, so you'll need rear armor to hurt them with bolters.

[Grey Mage]

3 TLLCs on a fast moving skimmer for 130pts that can outflank?

 

Yes, I think we have reason to respect those abilities.... its quite a powerful unit.

[Cornishman]

Their armor is 12/12/10, so you'll need rear armor to hurt them with bolters.

 

Opps, my bad... I must admit the Valk/Vendetta do seem to offer extremely good value for points starting 100/130 pts, they even get extra armour as standard...

 

Granted it's a big model so difficult to hide, but it does make a LS Typhoon seem not as a good value at 90 pts with only 10 armour all round...

[Grey Mage]

It makes waveserpents look like... well, crap.

[Vel'Cona]

POWA KREEEEEP strikes again!

 

But aside from that, the biggest thing that no sells me on the Valk is that not only is it Fast, and 12/12/10, and gets to count as a Skimmer when it's really not (that's like calling the Harrier or F-35 fighters Skimmers, because they can VTOL), but it's also a Scout, which means Outflank (with rerolls) and drop a ton of Melta-gimps behind my lines. All that for what, a buck 10 on the Valk and 130 for the ridiculously effective Vendetta? Really, the only thing that'll prevent these guys from rolling all over the circuit is A. Cost to own and B. Size of storage. I guess the big revenge for those of us on the receiving end is watching the poor saps that bought 3+ of these things try to lug them back to their cars in the middle of July. :yes:

 

Rant aside, Autocannons and ML are still your friends. Remember, these buggers have a huge footprint so they'll rarely get cover, and without the Holofields or Wave Serpent shields they're actually quite vulnerable to S7-9 long range weapons. If you can pop em before they get in range to deploy, you can also leave a wussy squad of Guardsmen high and dry, a nice bonus IMO.

[minigun762]

it's also a Scout, which means Outflank (with rerolls) and drop a ton of Melta-gimps behind my lines. All that for what, a buck 10 on the Valk and 130 for the ridiculously effective Vendetta?

 

I have a feeling we're going to have to deal with it by accepting that if it strikes first, something of ours dies and then making sure it dies the next turn.

 

It flies in, pops your Vindicator, you have to down it the next turn.

My guess is that they'll be most common in pairs and with the squadron rules, that might actually benefit us in killing them.

[DerekLee688]

it's also a Scout, which means Outflank (with rerolls) and drop a ton of Melta-gimps behind my lines. All that for what, a buck 10 on the Valk and 130 for the ridiculously effective Vendetta?

 

I have a feeling we're going to have to deal with it by accepting that if it strikes first, something of ours dies and then making sure it dies the next turn.

 

It flies in, pops your Vindicator, you have to down it the next turn.

My guess is that they'll be most common in pairs and with the squadron rules, that might actually benefit us in killing them.

 

I guess we're getting a taste of our own medicine.(Iron-Pods, Deep strike LS MM/Heavy Flamer)

 

But I'll be happy to run two vindicators anyway.

[minigun762]

I apologize for the thread-necromancy but after seeing where people are going with the new IG codex, my initial worries were confirmed.

 

Vendetta/Valkyrie spamming seems to be the new hot thing. I'm seeing lists with 4+ of these new Skimmer/Flyers and sometimes twice that many, all packing triple Melta Vets for busting the big stuff.

 

Since Marine armies tend to be built as either Rhino heavy or Land Raider heavy, how do we stop a half dozen gunships before we lose our entire army?

[Grey Mage]

I apologize for the thread-necromancy but after seeing where people are going with the new IG codex, my initial worries were confirmed.

 

Vendetta/Valkyrie spamming seems to be the new hot thing. I'm seeing lists with 4+ of these new Skimmer/Flyers and sometimes twice that many, all packing triple Melta Vets for busting the big stuff.

 

Since Marine armies tend to be built as either Rhino heavy or Land Raider heavy, how do we stop a half dozen gunships before we lose our entire army?

Armor 12?

 

Skimmer?

 

Yeah... lascannons. Lots of frickin lascannons.

 

And stop relying on your rhinos- theyre useful, but at 35pts their built to be expendable.

 

On the other hand, at 130pts a peice, Valkyries are definitely NOT expendable, and frankly theyre likely most dangerous when used from reserves.

[minigun762]

Personally I know there is a very good chance that I'll be fielding some Autocannon/Missile Havocks in the near future.

[I AM THE AWESOME]

I apologize for the thread-necromancy but after seeing where people are going with the new IG codex, my initial worries were confirmed.

 

Vendetta/Valkyrie spamming seems to be the new hot thing. I'm seeing lists with 4+ of these new Skimmer/Flyers and sometimes twice that many, all packing triple Melta Vets for busting the big stuff.

 

Since Marine armies tend to be built as either Rhino heavy or Land Raider heavy, how do we stop a half dozen gunships before we lose our entire army?

 

I would love to play such a list.

 

Why?

 

Answer: there is ridiculous amounts of anti-tank in such a list. But what can that army bring against infantry? Exactly. The list I respect more is the Valkyrie version. (Multiple rocket pods, triple melta vets)

 

Yeah, it's a good unit, but if I were playing Guard, unless taken en masse I'd rather have a Medusa.

[deepstrike]

Give it a couple months and watch the lists start to change. I feel Tyranids are going to change how lists are made in a hurry. Until then Im looking at some solid 48 inch range guns. Autocannons and lascannons already feature heavily in my army that isnt going to change.

 

Problem with vindicator, redeemer, crusader or baal pred is that at 24 inches you will never be in range of a Valkyrie or vendetta and they can plink your rhinos to death leaving your heavier armor to the medusas to destroy. In this situation meltas are not even necessary. If you dont vary your lists to include anti air capable weapons then enjoy your own destruction.

 

Typhoons can be a big help to negate the gunships' speed and range and have good flexibility against any list. I dont see vendettas wasting shots at landspeeders.

 

I dont know what chaos can do to effectively counter them beyond CSM squads with autocannons or rockets and havoc squads. Predator with las sponsons are a possibility but they are also target number one.

 

I feel sorry for inquisitor armies.

[Giga]

A vendetta is dangerous, but it has its weaknesses.

 

The size of its base & the height at which it stands means it's rarely if ever going to get a cover save, and if it moves flat out it can't shoot its weapons. Also, if it moves flat out, an immobilized result against it counts as wrecked result, so a melta penetration kills it on 3+.

 

The way I see it, the vendetta is gonna be something like a glass cannon. It's easily killed, but it can really lay down the hurt if it lives long enough.

[Allerka]

I've played multiple games against a guy who brings three of them to the table, and I've never been scared. My bikers just laugh at them, as I can easily cross any distance to melta them in a turn, and even my regular mechanized list blows them apart (unless my dice have a particular hatred for me that day, of course ;)) . They're just like the rest of the Guard codex, a joke to me. My bikers have never failed to do anything but utterly spank Guard, no matter how many vehicles or what kind they bring. In fact, the more vehicles they bring, the bigger my grin gets because it's that much easier for me to table the whole list.

 

Yeah, Vendettas can be annoying with the lascannon spam, but they're stupidly easy to kill if the owner wants to get any actual use out of them. Otherwise he's just zipping them around for a cover save and not doing anything with them.

[satanaka]

personally, I see the Pred Autocannon/Lascannon sponson combo making a comeback just to deal with this issue.

 

2 S7 shots, and at least one S9 Lascannon shot a turn, in conjunction with a regular LR or two, will make most guard players think twice about running so many Valks.

 

Hence why I only run one, and rely more on Chimeras, for transport.

 

And yes, it will work for Valks as well as Vendettas

[mannstein]

They're just like the rest of the Guard codex, a joke to me.

 

Then the guy you are playing is doing it wrong. :P At a guess he has tank fixation, which is easy to do (they are nice big shiny models, after all), but if he really knew the guard army (and its core principal) , it would be harder for you. Funny thing is, the heaviest armour I run in my IG atm (1500pt list so far) is chimeras... :) I wouldn't even consider running heavy armour until 1850pts, and valks wouldn't see the light of day in my lists until 2500... and even then only as padding. Maybe its just a philosophical thing.

 

TBH, as a guard player, I regard the valk/vet combo as nothing more than an expensive gimmick, and maybe a fire magnet for a turn. For that points cost, I can deploy a full platoon of infantry, which is much harder to kill and more useful to me, or half a mech platoon. If someone sinks that number of points into a big, expensive, impossible to hide model with a very soft-and-squishy cargo, smile and kill it. They deserve it.

 

As to killing it.... autocannon would be my preferred choice, as it would be against any mid-armoured transport, simply because lascannon are overkill, and melta lacks the range.

 

Rifleman dread FTW, in this case, I think, followed by dakka pred. (Dual use vehicle: its cheap enough to use as bait, in the event that he bring them on a flankers, and capable of killing outright through HB shots to the rear armour is he flies over the pred to get at a LR or something more "threatening")