Should we fear the Vendetta?

[Koremu]

The core principle of the IG list (and the Departmentum Munitorium) is "do everything in triplicate". One Valk is not a threat. 3 (or 6!) certainly are. The same goes for Dogpack lists, Heavy Tank lists and even PBI lists.

[Allerka]

They're just like the rest of the Guard codex, a joke to me.

 

Then the guy you are playing is doing it wrong. :) At a guess he has tank fixation, which is easy to do (they are nice big shiny models, after all), but if he really knew the guard army (and its core principal) , it would be harder for you.

It's not just him, EVERY Guard player I've faced has been steamrolled by my bikers. Him with his vendetta spam, a guy who had like a dozen chimeras in a 2500 point game, a guy who outflanked an entire platoon with El'rahem, etc. NOTHING Guard can throw at my bikers can withstand them, they're just too fast. Except maybe nine leman russes, but I've yet to encounter that. :P

 

Though I have liked the idea of an infantry-heavy list, it makes me giggle at the thought of fielding over 30 autocannons at 1850.

 

Really, it's all about how you use it. The best tools in the world won't do jack for you if you haven't read the instruction manual. I know other people who do run these things with some success.

[mannstein]

It's not just him, EVERY Guard player I've faced has been steamrolled by my bikers. Him with his vendetta spam, a guy who had like a dozen chimeras in a 2500 point game, a guy who outflanked an entire platoon with El'rahem, etc. NOTHING Guard can throw at my bikers can withstand them, they're just too fast. Except maybe nine leman russes, but I've yet to encounter that. :P

 

Though I have liked the idea of an infantry-heavy list, it makes me giggle at the thought of fielding over 30 autocannons at 1850.

 

Really, it's all about how you use it. The best tools in the world won't do jack for you if you haven't read the instruction manual. I know other people who do run these things with some success.

 

Funny thing is, the guy I play against most regularly has an eldar jetbike army, and if I play it wrong I get a resounding beating- usually, if I gunline I die. When I adapt my tactics and play agressively, he loses. It sounds like the people you have played against just don't have a handle on their armies. I reckon you hit it on the head with the last part of your post, and that is something every single 40k player should remember. I actually like playing against mobile armies... they get within lasgun range faster.. and T5 really doesn't scare me. There are, in my opinion at least, too many players who see discussions on the internet and decide "X is good, spam it" when they should be sitting down and reading their codex and understanding what the army can do and is supposed to do, and how it is supposed to do it.

 

The IG motto is, in my book at least, "never send a squad when a company will do", and the main issue I have with these (air cav) armies is they simple do not have enough boots on the ground to work (in the long run). Knock out the valks, they have max armour 12 and if they flank you a heavy bolter in the ass will do it, the army hits the ground and dies. The infantry simply is not durable enough to weather a decent counterattack. If he kills all your vehicles with vendettas, suddenly they aren't effective any more: a TL lascannon can only kill one marine if it hits. If he squads his vendettas up, its a bonus to you, as the marine player, it means you can kill more than one at a time. Stop taking armies designed to kill MEQ, and take more multi-shot weapons. Take ML dev squads, stick them in ruins and suddenly those "fearsome, broken" valks are weak. Take lots of autocannon and heavy bolters (for their rear armour) and use cover to stop the valks hitting side or rear armour and they are weak again.

 

The whole point of the aircav army seems to be alpha strike: if it fails to wipe out a MEQ force on turn one, it can only die horribly in my view, the transports are simply not tough enough to survive a decent counterattack. The squad rules means they have to fire at one target, so one vehicle takes many hits. This is good, you can use it to your advantage. If you can't take the aircav on, you are doing something wrong, it has weaknesses (big enough ones to make it unsustainable as an army, IMO): the vehicles can't hide except in exceptional circumstances, they have poor armour, and if they are squadded up one rifleman dread can drop the whole squad in one turn of shooting, and they cannot carry enough troops to guarantee any of them will survive. Terminator deep striking into a good firing position will hurt them. Heavy bolters on bikes, heck even the humble bolter in sufficient quantities will cause enough glancing hits to kill them. Meltas in a guard army actually suck, due to the relatively low BS and fragility of their weilders, and their relatively high points costs.

 

I just don't get the complaints, tbh. :P

[Warp Angel]

After some playtesting, they're definitely going into my guard army to fill much the same role as my bikes do in my Marine army.

 

Flexible deployment, either from reserves, or if you go first, deploy up as far as possible, then scout move so that just about ANYTHING is within the 6" range of the melta vets inside. It's an alpha strike capability that's pretty staggering.

 

Add the heavy bolters to it and you get 9 shots against horde armies that should ignore armor saves. The Valkyrie is probably better in the anti-horde role at the same price point (with the rocket pods) but the Vendetta is nothing to sneeze at. It wrecks daemon princes and other monstrous creatures and has the capability to completely steal the tactical initiative away from his opponent.

 

Admittedly, with the Vendetta + melta vets, you're looking at Land Raider levels of points cost, but that may be worth it, especially if you compare it to a well equipped tactical squad's point cost and effectiveness.

 

We are talking about troops and their transport here...

[OIF Knight]

Speaking from being both a Space Marine and IG player, Vendettas make their points back within turns 1-2 of every game I use them. I usually run 4 Vendettas, squadron'd in 2 groups of 2. They reserve and outflank if I don't go first, and scout 24" if I do. I take 3 vet squads and a CCS, all Melta'd out, drop in behind a Land Raider or equivalent, even MC's, cast Bring It Down with the Meltas. I have managed to take out all Chaos MC models in one turn, or every Land Raider/Transport this way. As a Space MArine, my biggest fear is someday finding another IG player who uses this many Vendettas in their tactics, as Minigun aptly stated, you have to except that something you love WILL die...

 

However, it is my experience that Obliterators are great anti Vendetta units. Deep STrike 'em right near the ships, rear armor if possible, and launch meltas. Thats one of my big fears! As a Space Marine, Tri Las Pred should be effective, as long as it survives long enough. But so far I have seen Obliterators be my biggest threat.

 

for 130 points base cost, only 15 more than the less than marginal (in my opinion) Valkyrie (after LC upgrade assuming), the Vendetta is a no-brainer option, and I'm starting to see more and more IG players catch on to strategies like mine.

 

Just about the only thing holding back every IG player from playing like this is the cost of the model. I think I spent a week's pay check on my 4 :)

 

And for the record, I glued several leftover Lascannons to my models to give the Vendetta flavor...IG Heavy Weapon sprues ftw!

[minigun762]

Admittedly, with the Vendetta + melta vets, you're looking at Land Raider levels of points cost, but that may be worth it, especially if you compare it to a well equipped tactical squad's point cost and effectiveness.

 

Yeah but if we play the "I trade this unit for that unit" its fairly easy for a Melta Vet squad to fry a Land Raider or other heavy armor while the Vendetta knocks out a Predator or equivalent and you've already made your points back (a poor man's arguement I know, but one that is often quoted).

 

Vendetta + 10 Vets with 3 Meltaguns = 240 points and is a BS4 scoring unit in a 12/12/10 skimmer

 

Rhino + 10 Tactical Marines with Power Fist, Meltagun, Multi-Melta = 235 points and is a BS4 scoring unit in a 11/11/10 tank

 

the only advantages that Marines have are superior HtH abilities and a better armor save but I'm not really sure that that is the equivalent of +1/+1 armor, Skimmer and 3 TL'd LasCannons worth of transport.

[Resv]

Lately I have been fielding an Air Cav IC army based around Valk/Vendetta squadrons in friendly games at about 1750 points. I'm currently trying to trim and perfect the list for tournament play. Like Warp Angle described (I myself am a huge proponent of Killhammer) I use my Valk/Vends like I would use my Space Marine Bikes. For a rather cheap price you can out fit a rather deadly unit of mobile death. Scout it self is worth its weight in gold and weather you use it as an Alpha Strike or Outflank. Also, and this was a surprise to me in a recent game, they come standard with Extra Armor. I don't have my Space Marine Dex in front of me but if I'm not mistaken isn't that a 10 point option? Grav Chute insertion is also incredibly useful for completely screwing up your opponents plans. You can Deep Strike any unit along the path of the Valk/Vend meaning you can drop a unit before making a 24 inch move or after and that unit can still shoot! This is amazingly destructive when played right. Oh yeah, when loaded with troops they count as scoring. All said and done you are spending just over the cost of a Land Raider for an immense amount of flexibility and a 10 man unit of BS 4 troops with 3 special weapons. Beware also of a Veteran Sargent named Bastonne too. He can give orders to his Vet squad that make their weapons Twin-Linked vs tanks or force you to re-roll all of your cover saves. He also has a version of ANSKNF.

 

Also the FAQ for the new IG codex is super friendly to the Valkyrie/Vendetta laying out some firm rulings on questions that have been floating around my FLGS. Most importantly is how you draw LOS and Distance on the Valkyrie, you measure to the hull of the Skimmer rather than just to the base. With Melta weapons and such this is a huge hit as to get that extra D6 to pen you need to be within about 3 inches or so. Assaulting all you need to do is be in Base to Base contact, but this little tidbit can keep your killer shots just out of reach.

 

Lastly, what makes this such a dangerous unit is the considerable amount of heavy support that can accompany it. There is no shortage of very powerful options that an IG player can put on the board. Melta equivalent shots out to 70 inches in the form of a Vanquisher Leman Russ, the scary effect of a Manticore missile launcher, or the potential of a battery of Medusa or Basilisk artillery all of which isn't all that expensive. A fast moving transport that can put it's troops anywhere backed up by AP1/2/3 pie plates is very scary. Guard can offer us so many priority targets that figuring out what to kill first can be a little daunting. Imagine a Mech Eldar Army with better support and you have the right idea. The old days of entrenched Guard gun lines made up of hordes of models are past it seems.

 

They are still far from unbeatable but they should be respected and, most importantly, understood so that you know what to expect. With so many players dropping their Lascannon in favor of the more popular Melta based weapons Valks/Vends have a slight edge right now.

[OIF Knight]

@Resv-

 

excellent point regarding target priority that I completely forgot to mention. The dilemma that most of my opponents face is whether to concentrate firepower on my Vendettas or my Leman Russ gunline (typically 2 Demolishers and 2 MBTs). I think their grief is obvious if you weigh the importance of each group against the other.

 

Just another way the Air Cav section of an army can cause 'mental' stress for an opponent :) Which is often just as effective as inflicting wounds/damage in many cases.

[Allerka]

@Resv-

 

excellent point regarding target priority that I completely forgot to mention. The dilemma that most of my opponents face is whether to concentrate firepower on my Vendettas or my Leman Russ gunline (typically 2 Demolishers and 2 MBTs). I think their grief is obvious if you weigh the importance of each group against the other.

 

Just another way the Air Cav section of an army can cause 'mental' stress for an opponent :) Which is often just as effective as inflicting wounds/damage in many cases.

Very true. One has to remember metagame tactics as well. ;)

[Vaktathi]

As both an IG and a CSM player, I have some thoughts.

 

As a CSM player, they represent a huge threat to transports and non-land raider vehicles, as well as units like Obliterators, and putting 3 LC's into basic CSM's isn't too bad either. They can Scout, Outflank, or Deep Strike, meaning you can get hit by meltaguns or a meltabomb charge on turn 1 from a unit inside or have lascannons carrying melta infantry appear from the flanks. Hugely scary.

 

 

That said, they are no harder to kill really than Chimeras.

 

 

As an IG player, they are amazing, for the reasons stated above. Yesterday during a game, my SM opponent fielding (as usual with almost all SM lists I see these days) a fairly typical meltaspam Vulkan list, got his choice of deployment zone, so he got to go first and all that jazz, so I simply held everything in reserve (gogo gadget astropath). So his dread podded in and his stuff moved up for the first two turns, and then...

 

My turn 2 (the first turn I had anything to do) my reserve rolls brought on 2 of 3 LRBT's, and 5 of 7 Chimeras (2 platoons +HQ command), and then 3 of 3 Vendettas (2 carrying meltavets). The Vendettas all outflanked with a "my choice" board edge.

 

At the end of that shooting phase, my opponent had lost an LRR, a Whirlwind, a Vindicator, a Predator, had 2 stunned Rhinos, and Vulkan's termi deathstar unit was pinned, and had lost a Scout squad, about half his army. The vendettas and vets were the only units that really shot that turn, except for 1 heavy flamer that killed the Scouts, nothing else needed to shoot or had LoS.

 

 

 

When used properly and facing a heavily mechanized SM list, Vendettas are simply worth their weight in gold, especially if loaded with meltavets. That said, they do require some thought on how to use them, and are relatively easy to destroy without too much effort, and are usually the first things to go when my opponents start shooting. The "Air Cav" list, utilizing 6-8 skimmers, really is rather poor, however loading up on 7-9 chimeras, 3 LRBT's, and then throwing in the Vendettas, give you an astounding number of tanks (13-15 AV12/14 vehicles), and 70-80 infantry, and the flexibility to combat any threat you will face.

[chapter master 454]

vendettas and valks to me are a joke, their 'tank busting' power or 'side armour threat' is a lot of rubbish, Killhammer doesn't even rank then as a threat on my radar. I could plaster one with easy, to me while I like armour (while being an imperial guard army building right now) the 35 pound valk is just rubbish, for one alot of IG players seem to forget your stormtroopers can deep strike by themselves and while the first turn DS is nice it is vunerable to first turn hits and one salvo of lascannon fire is no problem. Looking at those over-glorifed transports make me laugh, I mean while my heart normally skips when a lascannon fires at one of my land raiders, I would have no problem giving that IG player a lesson in real firepower.

 

First of it's base is something it needs, otherwise it can't even be place on the board without having to take DT checks every turn and with it's base it lights up like a chirstmas tree on fire. So far I've faced one and the most it's ever done is do las-burns on my armoured plates, heck it only got pegged because my AC/LCS pred didn't have a better target, which was none! I once even killed it from my TFC techmarines TLPP after his cannon had been destroyed after it moved flat out which went like this: to hit;1 then 3, to penetrate; 5, cover save; 1 then damage was 6, so with it going flat out count one mangled valk of about 160 pods (he had missle pods or something), goes to show, never tick off the techmarine with gun (he's done this twice now, once with a valk and his first was an insta-killed autarch!). So in summary: valk/vendetta = no threat

[rat of vengence]

I fail to see how 3 twin linked lascannons coming in from the flank isn't likely to kill any one of your tanks he choses, plus the possibility of 3 meltaguns on a second tank. To say that is no threat is mildly ridiculous.

 

RoV

[Resv]

vendettas and valks to me are a joke, their 'tank busting' power or 'side armour threat' is a lot of rubbish, Killhammer doesn't even rank then as a threat on my radar. I could plaster one with easy, to me while I like armour (while being an imperial guard army building right now) the 35 pound valk is just rubbish, for one alot of IG players seem to forget your stormtroopers can deep strike by themselves and while the first turn DS is nice it is vunerable to first turn hits and one salvo of lascannon fire is no problem. Looking at those over-glorifed transports make me laugh, I mean while my heart normally skips when a lascannon fires at one of my land raiders, I would have no problem giving that IG player a lesson in real firepower.

 

First of it's base is something it needs, otherwise it can't even be place on the board without having to take DT checks every turn and with it's base it lights up like a chirstmas tree on fire. So far I've faced one and the most it's ever done is do las-burns on my armoured plates, heck it only got pegged because my AC/LCS pred didn't have a better target, which was none! I once even killed it from my TFC techmarines TLPP after his cannon had been destroyed after it moved flat out which went like this: to hit;1 then 3, to penetrate; 5, cover save; 1 then damage was 6, so with it going flat out count one mangled valk of about 160 pods (he had missle pods or something), goes to show, never tick off the techmarine with gun (he's done this twice now, once with a valk and his first was an insta-killed autarch!). So in summary: valk/vendetta = no threat

 

Man I wish I could play with your luck. I believe the Guard Player you have faced must not have really known what he was about while fielding his Vendetta. In Tank hunting terms their Killhammer rating is HUGE, 3 twin linked Lascannon shots at 48 inches at a price that is LESS than a similarly kitted Predator. I wouldn't call that rubbish mate. However, popping Land Raiders with Lascannons is not what I would call reliable. There are FAR better ways to take down a Land Raider than sending in a Vendetta. I have to side with you on this one, a Vendetta against a Land Raider is not much of a threat, but that Leman Russ Vanquisher with it's 70 inch range Melta Equivalent gun is. Or the Vet troopers with their Twin Linked Meltas that landed after the Vendetta boosted past might be a better way of dealing with a raider.

 

In truth though, you are very correct a single Vend/Valk is not much of a threat. Here is a perspective; these new skimmers are a lot like a 4-5 man Space Marine Bike Squad (about the same amount of points) taken as a fast attack option. They are a good unit to maybe take to fill up some points, there are better fast attack options in the dex that are more points efficient. A 8 man plus Attack Bike (around the same cost as a Vendetta w/ Melta Vets) unit taken as a Troop Choice with an army built around supporting 2 or more squads is a completely different animal. Only one Valk/Vend might do a bit of damage here and there but will never be as effective as if the IG player had built a list around supporting their birds.

 

The real issue at hand is that these things are heavily armed and armored and are cheap for what they can do. That price is what scares me more than anything else as it leaves the door open for even scarier pie plate weapons to still be fielded. All the while having extreamly fast moving infantry to contest objectives or go a tank huntin'. The closets thing we have is a Land Speeder Storm which is AV10 and Open Topped.

 

By the by, I saw someone fielding a few units of Gray Knights in Power Armor taken as Allies carting around in these things. Talk about scary, power Armored scoring units in one of the fastest vehicles around.

[OIF Knight]

Well, yesterday I had the chance to face a Space Wolves player who had beaten my drop troop IG list previously, with disastrous results.

 

I will point out some things I did (I feel its my duty as a SM player as well) that you should be wary of when fighting Vendettas: (I personally run 4)

Game was 2500 points, 2 HQs, Spearhead.

 

- His list was Drop Pod heavy...5-6 I believe. How did I combat this? Kept my WHOLE army in reserve and made him go first (I won the roll but chose turn 2). This forced the SM player to set up what few non-deep strike units he had blindly. He was shocked when I told him I wasn't deploying at all in my set up phase. His Drop Pod assault was a disaster as he had no clue where/what to drop.

 

- Since the game was HQs, I outflanked/reserved 2 Vendettas with meltavets and 10 rough riders toward his HQ. Between 6 TLLC, 12 HB, melta vets, and RR to clean it up, I cleared his HQ of opposition (1 Long Fang squad, 1 Tac Squad and a Rune Priest) in 1 turn...Turn 3 I turbo'd forward and sat on his HQ, the rest of his army spread across the board and unable to counter attack effectively.

 

- With his HQ secured by turn 3, my 4 Lemans, 2 Chimera vets, and 2 Chimera PBS units camped my HQ, supported by my other two Vendettas in the backfield, each with 10 melta vets in case of emergency. He attempted to rush forward in a last ditch effort, but his LRR was crippled by 6 TLLC shots, and by top of turn 5 his rush failed and he gave up.

 

- I didn't disembark 5/7 vet squads from their transports...3/7 vet squads (in vendettas) didn't even fire a shot. I essentially beat his 2500 points with 2000 points...

 

Take what you will from this rather abbreviated battle report, but I think it points out that yes, these things are dangerous, and they can be used as either a static weapons platform and manuever unit. I love them when I play IG, but HATE them when I play my marines. Drop Pod list is effective against them, unless the IG guy is smart, in which he'll reserve everything like I did. In that case, gg. And 6 TLLC shots will kill a LR in one round of shooting, I'm convinced, I do it every time. With 4-6 garunteed hits, your bound to roll AT LEAST one 6. I rolled 3 with 5 hits on his LR, I was just lucky though.

[minigun762]

Well, yesterday I had the chance to face a Space Wolves player who had beaten my drop troop IG list previously, with disastrous results.

 

I will point out some things I did (I feel its my duty as a SM player as well) that you should be wary of when fighting Vendettas: (I personally run 4)

Game was 2500 points, 2 HQs, Spearhead.

 

- His list was Drop Pod heavy...5-6 I believe. How did I combat this? Kept my WHOLE army in reserve and made him go first (I won the roll but chose turn 2). This forced the SM player to set up what few non-deep strike units he had blindly. He was shocked when I told him I wasn't deploying at all in my set up phase. His Drop Pod assault was a disaster as he had no clue where/what to drop.

 

- Since the game was HQs, I outflanked/reserved 2 Vendettas with meltavets and 10 rough riders toward his HQ. Between 6 TLLC, 12 HB, melta vets, and RR to clean it up, I cleared his HQ of opposition (1 Long Fang squad, 1 Tac Squad and a Rune Priest) in 1 turn...Turn 3 I turbo'd forward and sat on his HQ, the rest of his army spread across the board and unable to counter attack effectively.

 

- With his HQ secured by turn 3, my 4 Lemans, 2 Chimera vets, and 2 Chimera PBS units camped my HQ, supported by my other two Vendettas in the backfield, each with 10 melta vets in case of emergency. He attempted to rush forward in a last ditch effort, but his LRR was crippled by 6 TLLC shots, and by top of turn 5 his rush failed and he gave up.

 

- I didn't disembark 5/7 vet squads from their transports...3/7 vet squads (in vendettas) didn't even fire a shot. I essentially beat his 2500 points with 2000 points...

 

Take what you will from this rather abbreviated battle report, but I think it points out that yes, these things are dangerous, and they can be used as either a static weapons platform and manuever unit. I love them when I play IG, but HATE them when I play my marines. Drop Pod list is effective against them, unless the IG guy is smart, in which he'll reserve everything like I did. In that case, gg. And 6 TLLC shots will kill a LR in one round of shooting, I'm convinced, I do it every time. With 4-6 garunteed hits, your bound to roll AT LEAST one 6. I rolled 3 with 5 hits on his LR, I was just lucky though.

 

So approach it from the flip side, what would you have done in the SW shoes to stand a better chance?

[OIF Knight]

On the flip side, here are some insights that the Gaming Store had in general (not necessarily just me). Needless to say, our game attracted attention...

 

- My stance has been for a while now the as CSM (@Minigun) Obliterators are one of your best options. They are tough, which is nice, but they can deep strike and utilize S&P to shoot the turn they come in. Deep strike behind Vendettas (or side if need be) and launch MM shots. This is effective yet kind of risky, since it really depends on 1 round of good 'to hit' rolls. If the Vendettas don't die, instant death arrives...

 

- For regular marines, as I mentioned, Drop Pods are effective IF the IG player doesn't reserve those Vendettas. Honestly it can be a big decision whether or not to reserve them since their scout move is so attractive and sneaky. If he doesn't reserve them, as I learned the hard way a few weeks ago, just drop squads with MG (SW are nice because you get 2 MG per squad) near/behind them and fire away. Thats the one way I have actually seen my army beaten to date...

 

Assuming you do go with Pods and he does reserve his Vendettas, one suggestion the store owner had was to drop your pods across the IG deployment zone. This makes any non-flanking units target for melta, etc when they come on. And for an IG player, that deployment edge will be very crowded if the SM did it right, making dropping all those Leman pie plates very dangerous. Its aggressive, and the question was asked 'what if you scatter off the board?' with the interesting response of 'if they scatter and die, at least the died by your hand and not the ememies!'.

 

- I would also suggest that Dev squads with LC/MM would be effective. Take maybe 2 squads, put them in cover or screen them with cheap squads. This gives you a scary AT firebase and increases their survivability.

 

- As was pointed out by Resv, the only really equivalent we have as SM is the Landspeeder, which is still hardly a comparison IMO. However, use it like a Vendetta, turbo them 1 turn, next turn use MM against it. Or, I guess you could try Deep Striking Landspeeders into good MM position/range- essentially the Obliterator strat I mentioned above.

 

Thats all we came up with yesterday for now, I'll post what more I can come up with.

 

On the flip side, here are some insights that the Gaming Store had in general (not necessarily just me). Needless to say, our game attracted attention...

 

- My stance has been for a while now the as CSM (@Minigun) Obliterators are one of your best options. They are tough, which is nice, but they can deep strike and utilize S&P to shoot the turn they come in. Deep strike behind Vendettas (or side if need be) and launch MM shots. This is effective yet kind of risky, since it really depends on 1 round of good 'to hit' rolls. If the Vendettas don't die, instant death arrives...

 

- For regular marines, as I mentioned, Drop Pods are effective IF the IG player doesn't reserve those Vendettas. Honestly it can be a big decision whether or not to reserve them since their scout move is so attractive and sneaky. If he doesn't reserve them, as I learned the hard way a few weeks ago, just drop squads with MG (SW are nice because you get 2 MG per squad) near/behind them and fire away. Thats the one way I have actually seen my army beaten to date...

 

Assuming you do go with Pods and he does reserve his Vendettas, one suggestion the store owner had was to drop your pods across the IG deployment zone. This makes any non-flanking units target for melta, etc when they come on. And for an IG player, that deployment edge will be very crowded if the SM did it right, making dropping all those Leman pie plates very dangerous. Its aggressive, and the question was asked 'what if you scatter off the board?' with the interesting response of 'if they scatter and die, at least the died by your hand and not the ememies!'.

 

- I would also suggest that Dev squads with LC/MM would be effective. Take maybe 2 squads, put them in cover or screen them with cheap squads. This gives you a scary AT firebase and increases their survivability.

 

- As was pointed out by Resv, the only really equivalent we have as SM is the Landspeeder, which is still hardly a comparison IMO. However, use it like a Vendetta, turbo them 1 turn, next turn use MM against it. Or, I guess you could try Deep Striking Landspeeders into good MM position/range- essentially the Obliterator strat I mentioned above.

 

Thats all we came up with yesterday for now, I'll post what more I can come up with.

[mannstein]

The cost of the things makes them go against the one thing I really like about the guard: everything is expendable. There shouldn't be any units in a guard army that must survive. Sinking LR levels of points into a big, fragile target makes me unhappy. And, tbh, when those things start going down if they are in an aircav army (as opposed to a support role in a combined arms army-by far their deadliest role, IMO, there are some non-mathematical elements to their use) then each one represents a disproportionate loss of firepower and mobility. Its very much an eggs-in-one-basket approach, which is something I personally find both dull to play and dangerous as a mindset. After all, if the basket gets dropped... :teehee:

 

As to dropping them: don't bother going for penetrating hits when an immobilised result will do. ANY weapon of S4 or higher will do it, provided you roll enough dice in the right place. They don't have the eldar "soft landing" upgrade trick (I forget what its called) so immobilised = dead, especially in a squad. Get enough glancing hits and the wound allocation rules take care of it for you. Once those vets are exposed, its simple, they are just squishy IG infantry...

 

You do need to make a lot dice rolls though, which for some is a tactical challenge in its own right...:P

 

Im a guard player, I really shouldn't be saying this kind of stuff in a marine forum... <_<

[minigun762]

As to dropping them: don't bother going for penetrating hits when an immobilised result will do. ANY weapon of S4 or higher will do it, provided you roll enough dice in the right place. They don't have the eldar "soft landing" upgrade trick (I forget what its called) so immobilised = dead, especially in a squad.

 

I'm confused why you would be trying for the immobilized result.

Don't skimmers only die when immobilized if they traveled flat out?

 

I assume most of the time a Vendetta will be traveling 6" to fire all 3 Lascannons.

It might go flat out once to drop its Vets using the Grav Chutes.

[Koremu]

As to dropping them: don't bother going for penetrating hits when an immobilised result will do. ANY weapon of S4 or higher will do it, provided you roll enough dice in the right place. They don't have the eldar "soft landing" upgrade trick (I forget what its called) so immobilised = dead, especially in a squad.

 

I'm confused why you would be trying for the immobilized result.

Don't skimmers only die when immobilized if they traveled flat out?

 

I assume most of the time a Vendetta will be traveling 6" to fire all 3 Lascannons.

It might go flat out once to drop its Vets using the Grav Chutes.

Vehicles in Squadrons count immobilised results on the damage chart as destroyed, because the crew abandon their vehicle and hitch with the rest of the squadron so as not to be left behind. It's in the squadron rules. They also count stunned as shaken IIRC.

 

Also, it's worth reminding everyone that a Tactical Squad stands a fairly good chance at killing one of these, even if it moves flat out - 9 Krak Grenades and 3 Power Fist attacks, even hitting only on 6s, will likely score a couple of hits, with a good chance of taking the craft down.

[OIF Knight]

Skimmers do only die going flat out if immobilised. I think what he means is that if you squadron Vendettas (like I do), or any vehicle for that matter, an immobilised will result in destroyed per the vehicle squadron rules.

 

Mannstein has valid points re: all eggs in one basket. At 1000 points that is what my army relies on (I simply take 4 vendettas with melta vets and a CCS). However, with the excception of tournaments, I rarely play low point games like that, and I typically run 2-2.5k point lists. At those point levels, my number of vendettas remains at 4 no matter what, I simply add more tanks, vets, PBS's, etc., offering a more 'combined arms' approach which you mentioned. I will admit my 1000 point army is dull to play, and doesn't make friends, but its a tourney build, and in tourney's, our saying at the FLGS is 'go big or go home', or 'go cheesey or go home'.

 

If anything, my startegy at 2k+ points games is the hammer and anvil approach- my Lemans are the anvil, my vendettas/vets are the hammer.

 

Anyway, sorry to drone on about IG in the SM forums, hope all of this has offered some insight on the original topic :devil:

[OIF Knight]

@Koremu-

 

Excellent point re: Tac Squad loadout related to effective Vendetta killing. It would definately work purely based on hit saturation theory.

 

However, shame on the IG player that lets a tactical squad get the jump on a fast skimmer.... :devil:

[Koremu]

Bikes are more or less the same prospect, except with more Melta fire. The one staple Truth of fighting against the IG is that there is nothing in their list that you can't kill with a Tactical Squad.

[OIF Knight]

Agreed, bikes would be my preferred unit for going against Vendettas. Cover Save, 12" melta range, plus all the Tactical Squad trimmings. Very effective against these units IMO.

[Resv]

Vendetta and Valkyries are AV12/12/10 so unless you have a good rear shot you will just nick the paint job with a bolter. The rear on the Model is a little silly as well with the large tail section that blocks LOS to the rear from a few angles.

 

As for the Flip Side, facing off against my own list last night I found a few tactics that seem to work. I am convinced that any standard practice against Mech Eldar will work here. The biggest weakness of the Valk/Vend is the size of the model and there for blast templates are very effective. Missiles, like in real life, are a very cost effective counter. I already love Missile Launchers against guard so why not. Lascannon are also very very effective but like everyone else I really don't take any except for the set on one of my Land Raiders that I don't use all the time in favor of a Crusader Variant.

 

I have a lot of Alpha Strike in my list currently and getting around all of it is a hassle, since these skimmers fit so well into this kind of list. I was playing around with a Land Speeder Typhoon and that worked insanely well. It is lower to the ground than the Valk/Vend so it can make better use of cover and can out flank. Two missiles at range is pretty damn good and would make short work of just about any transport IG, Eldar, or otherwise.

 

Tactics wise presents a bit of a problem. My first idea was to turtle up my armor like I would when facing Mech Eldar/Dark Eldar and rely on my bike units to chew up armor, but that left me open to pie plates from Artillery and Armor. So I took a different approach which is to just go flat out and move as fast as I can forward while using any heavy weaponry to address on threat at a time. I still got chewed up by out flanking Skimmers but I was able to get rid of the heavy support with my Bikes.

 

Oddly enough Assaulting the Valk/Vend worked really well too. If they haven't moved flat out they aren't that as hard to take out as I had thought.

[Vaktathi]

vendettas and valks to me are a joke, their 'tank busting' power or 'side armour threat' is a lot of rubbish, Killhammer doesn't even rank then as a threat on my radar. I could plaster one with easy, to me while I like armour (while being an imperial guard army building right now) the 35 pound valk is just rubbish, for one alot of IG players seem to forget your stormtroopers can deep strike by themselves and while the first turn DS is nice it is vunerable to first turn hits and one salvo of lascannon fire is no problem.

:huh: I wish more SM players had your viewpoint. Maybe they'd agree to play my IG again.

 

Yes, they aren't too hard to destroy, but for the price of one land raider you get 2 Vendettas with 6 Twin Linked lascannons that still have 12 transport capacity, and can Scout, DS or Outflank. And you can take 9 of them. For the price of a Land Raider with a squad of terminators, you get 2 Venedettas with 2 10man BS4 scoring IG units with 3 melta guns each, for 6 TL lascannons & 6 BS4 meltaguns...

 

Stormtroopers are not the unit you need to worry about coming out of these things (the vast majority of experienced IG players will tell you they are horrifically overcosted junk), it's a 100pt unit of BS4 Vets with 3 melta guns.

 

 

There are many nasty things you can do with these. Vets with Demolitions hide in them, 24" scout move, then disembark turn 1 & meltabomb assault (after firing 3 meltaguns too mind you) and then the Vendetta will dump it's 3 lascannons into a predator or rhino or something. Or you can just have them outflank, come on turn 2 on 3's (astropath) and get to reroll the side in which they come on, and hit side armor (or rear sometimes) with 3 TL lascannons. Or hell, just start them behind the gunline and just blaze away from turn 1.

 

 

Looking at those over-glorifed transports make me laugh, I mean while my heart normally skips when a lascannon fires at one of my land raiders, I would have no problem giving that IG player a lesson in real firepower.

:P Yes, give the shootiest army in the game a lesson in firepower :rolleyes: Yes, the one that has more heavy weapons than you have models...

 

 

 

First of it's base is something it needs, otherwise it can't even be place on the board without having to take DT checks every turn and with it's base it lights up like a chirstmas tree on fire. So far I've faced one and the most it's ever done is do las-burns on my armoured plates

Bad rolling with lascannons from *one* vendetta one time does not mean it's always going to do that. And the hightened base also means it's almost always going to have LoS to its target and that your units won't be getting cover saves as often.

 

heck it only got pegged because my AC/LCS pred didn't have a better target, which was none! I once even killed it from my TFC techmarines TLPP after his cannon had been destroyed after it moved flat out which went like this: to hit;1 then 3, to penetrate; 5, cover save; 1 then damage was 6, so with it going flat out count one mangled valk of about 160 pods (he had missle pods or something), goes to show, never tick off the techmarine with gun (he's done this twice now, once with a valk and his first was an insta-killed autarch!). So in summary: valk/vendetta = no threat

Yes, it's easy to kill, it's also only 130pts and you can field up to 9. You are also assuming the IG player isn't spamming a buttload of other armor. If taken as the only vehicles or presenting the only targets, yes they'll die quickly, but then you're also dealing with a relatively poor IG player at that point.

 

in a relatively standard 2000pt game, an IG player can field 3 vendettas, 9 chimeras, and 3 LRBT's...and almost 80 infantry. Methinks your AT is going to be stretched *very* thin at that point.

 

 

Vendettas really are very dangerous for what they are, and should probably be about 30-40pts more than they are, and HS not FA. If I'm playing my CSM's, the last thing I want to see are Vendettas. Well...Vendettas and Leman Russ Battle Tanks.