Should we fear the Vendetta?

[chapter master 454]

vendettas and valks to me are a joke, their 'tank busting' power or 'side armour threat' is a lot of rubbish, Killhammer doesn't even rank then as a threat on my radar. I could plaster one with easy, to me while I like armour (while being an imperial guard army building right now) the 35 pound valk is just rubbish, for one alot of IG players seem to forget your stormtroopers can deep strike by themselves and while the first turn DS is nice it is vunerable to first turn hits and one salvo of lascannon fire is no problem.

:huh: I wish more SM players had your viewpoint. Maybe they'd agree to play my IG again.

 

Yes, they aren't too hard to destroy, but for the price of one land raider you get 2 Vendettas with 6 Twin Linked lascannons that still have 12 transport capacity, and can Scout, DS or Outflank. And you can take 9 of them. For the price of a Land Raider with a squad of terminators, you get 2 Venedettas with 2 10man BS4 scoring IG units with 3 melta guns each, for 6 TL lascannons & 6 BS4 meltaguns...

 

 

 

Looking at those over-glorifed transports make me laugh, I mean while my heart normally skips when a lascannon fires at one of my land raiders, I would have no problem giving that IG player a lesson in real firepower.

:lol: Yes, give the shootiest army in the game a lesson in firepower :D Yes, the one that has more heavy weapons than you have models...

 

 

I field 3 land raiders at 1750 points and so far in the GW I have a firebase with enough power to go toe-to-toe with even 4 leman russes plus a good few veterans kicking around (not my 3 raiders but I garentee i could easily crush them). Big whoop they have more heavy weapons, it doesn't matter how many guns they bear it just lets me know how many troops I've got to dice up before carving up armour. So far while I've seen better IG lists normally I feel I can't out fire them I charge them, land raiders allowing this but who said anything about my firepower just being ranged, my firepower refers to my overall power.

 

In my defence though the statement is misunderstood anyway, it refers to a single IG player who had a fully loaded valk sitting at the corner of the board in prime objective grabbing distance with troops at the ready to DS from it but at turn 4 it had never moved, it was promtly splatted when my anti-tank pred had a lack of better targets and the game to my victory. Besides I'd love to out-shoot the guard, it's not hard. One solid tactical terminator salvo can down their most precious squads and if I need it I'll just let lysander run around them for the game by DS behind his line with him...hmmm thats a fun idea, DS lysander on his own behind the enemy of gunliners! ;)

[Resv]

3 Land Raiders and Lysander at 1750 points? That leaves, what, about 720 points after upgrades for the rest of your army, thats quite the investment. I'm surprised you don't get rolled more often by armies like Guard with strong heavy support. To each his/her own Meta Game I suppose. Though I would love to see what a similarly priced group of Leman Russ Vanquishers would do to you. Hell, any of the Artillery choices for that matter. Even a Railgun or two. Again, to each his/her own.

 

I don't think anyone is trying to question your ability to lay your opponent's flat. I think though that your comments were a bit short for this particular debate. If I may, for those of us who don't run 3 Land Raiders and Lysander, what tactics would you suggest for dealing with Valkyrie/Vendetta heavy armies? I'm really interested in your suggested strategies.

[mannstein]

Vendetta and Valkyries are AV12/12/10 so unless you have a good rear shot you will just nick the paint job with a bolter. The rear on the Model is a little silly as well with the large tail section that blocks LOS to the rear from a few angles.

 

Umm... just one small point.... how can a model block LOS to itself? The tail booms of the valk can't block LOS at all, its ignored when targeting the thing... :)

[Resv]

Umm... just one small point.... how can a model block LOS to itself? The tail booms of the valk can't block LOS at all, its ignored when targeting the thing... :P

 

It is all about the shape of the model. The Tail booms as still considered part of the "hull" just like the wings making the Valk/Vend very long and the area of what we would thing of as the rear isn't near as big. So you may have a shot that you would call rear but your opponent or an official might call side if obscured by the booms. This is most visible when the model is played without a base with just a bit of cover around. I know it is dumb but I have see it happen on a model that had a "custom" base which had the Vend a pretty good slant. "Rolling" his Vendetta looked really cool but it had a huge advantage that is really only had its sides and front visible as you couldn't draw a decent LOS to the rear hatch. Just as one can model a whole unit of Tactical marines in the kneeling position to make the best use of cover someone can adjust their base for an advantage.

[Koremu]

LOS has nothing to do with firing arc vs. vehicles. Arcs are absolute - if you are in the rear 90 degree arc, you fire against rear AV, regardless of if you can see its rear hatch.

[Iron_Chaos_Brute]

Not 90 degrees, Koremu, you draw lines diagonally from corner to corner to define arcs.

[Resv]

Not 90 degrees, Koremu, you draw lines diagonally from corner to corner to define arcs.

 

Which can be taken out of context with the Valkyrie and abused. Sucky, but there you go.

[Koremu]

Regardless of where you draw its arc from, it still can't give cover to itself, and you're still in the rear arc when you do so.

[Resv]

Of course your right, it can't give cover to itself. Problem is how some players define what is the "hull" of the Skimmer.

[Vaktathi]

I field 3 land raiders at 1750 points and so far in the GW I have a firebase with enough power to go toe-to-toe with even 4 leman russes plus a good few veterans kicking around (not my 3 raiders but I garentee i could easily crush them).

I love facing armies like this with IG...and my CSM's. There's so few targets to shoot at, and once whatever is in them hops out, it gets one round to kill 1 thing usually and then gets shot to pieces. I can concentrate all my AT on 3 units essentially and be done by turn 3 with it.

 

A fairly bog standard IG mechvets list should have 0 problems dealing with an army like that. 4 chimeltavets units, melta toting CCS, 3 vendettas, 3 LRBT's with plasma cannon sponsons, pretty standard sort of list, would leave such an SM army hurting bad.

 

Big whoop they have more heavy weapons, it doesn't matter how many guns they bear it just lets me know how many troops I've got to dice up before carving up armour.

Have you played against a decent Mechanized IG list yet...? If the IG player is competent at all it means you need to kill the armor before you can kill the troops. 155pts gets you an AV12 chimera with 2 heavy weapons, and 10 scoring BS4 meltagun toting vets that can fire all 3 meltaguns from within the confines of the Chimera without having to expose themselves to enemy fire or assault, or hell, 125pts for a BS3 platoon command squad with 4 meltaguns. And then you've still got the vendettas.

 

Also, it's not just the troops packing heavy weapons. Unlike SM's, IG transports pack 2 HW's and not just a stormbolter. I crack probably half the rhino's I face just through chimera fire.

 

So far while I've seen better IG lists normally I feel I can't out fire them I charge them, land raiders allowing this but who said anything about my firepower just being ranged, my firepower refers to my overall power.

Firepower is generally assumed to mean shooting capability. Either way, if faced with in 1750 13 AV12/14 tanks, 56 infantry (that you have to tear out of transports to get at) and almost as many A3/2 weapons as you've got models, It's not something SM/CSM armies deal with well at all. I know my CSM's have extreme difficulty with such armies and that my mech IG really haven't had any problems dealing with SM's/CSM's. The lower the total model count, the easier it is for IG to deal with, especially total unit count. Triple land raider lists usually aren't very difficult for solid IG armies with a couple melta units and a wing of vendettas. It's the SM armies that throw out 60something marines that really prove a problem.

 

In my defence though the statement is misunderstood anyway, it refers to a single IG player who had a fully loaded valk sitting at the corner of the board in prime objective grabbing distance with troops at the ready to DS from it but at turn 4 it had never moved

Dumb IG player, nothing really more to say about that. And there's a difference between Valks and Vendettas. Valks are packing S4/5 weapons mainly and are 24-36", Vendettas are packing 3 Twin Linked Lascannons reaching out to 48".

[deepstrike]

My Valkyrie pretty much gets shot down immediately. Engines must be plasma magnets. I get one maybe two volleys then thats it. As far as melta vets in them it works fine but its not game breaking. 6 inches is the magic number so deploying off the base, that it comes with and you have to use to conform to the rules, while keeping the Valkyrie at least an inch away from enemies at the end of its move gets difficult. I guess all those Guard players have opponents less lucky then mine. The good thing about facing squadrons from an enemies point of view is that if you are in range of one vehicle in the squadron you are in range of all as hits are distributed as all squad hits are. Not to mention immobilized equals destroyed. Keep your head.

[minigun762]

Even using it without a Vet squad, its still 130 points for a triple Lascannon platform that you can move 6" and still fire everything.

 

I kinda find it annoying that its as accurate as a tri-Lascannon Predator (piloted by Marines) and almost 25% cheaper...

 

Even if you just have it hang back behind your gunline of Leman Russes, it still presents a very dangerous amount of firepower, much better then walking Lascannon Obliterators.

 

EDIT: It even beats out my new favorite Loyalist toy, the dual Autocannon Gun Dread (RifleDread).

[Resv]

I played a few games yesterday with using only one Vendetta and I gotta say I am surprised at how it performed. It came in when I needed it fired off a few shots and then it was gone. Flying Solo it has utility but I view it more in the line of a Land Speeder rather than a full on Assault Skimmer; a very potent unit but a bit more prone to attack. I think their strength is in the fact you can take so many of them. That being the case, I still think Missiles are the best method for dealing with them. Something to consider also is taking Hunter Killer Missiles on Rhinos, Razorbacks or any vehicle kitted out for Anit-Infantry rather than anti-tank. That is a pretty broad statement and I know there are better things to spend points on but it is an off the cuff idea.

[Grey Mage]

Even using it without a Vet squad, its still 130 points for a triple Lascannon platform that you can move 6" and still fire everything.

 

I kinda find it annoying that its as accurate as a tri-Lascannon Predator (piloted by Marines) and almost 25% cheaper...

 

Even if you just have it hang back behind your gunline of Leman Russes, it still presents a very dangerous amount of firepower, much better then walking Lascannon Obliterators.

 

EDIT: It even beats out my new favorite Loyalist toy, the dual Autocannon Gun Dread (RifleDread).

Yeah, it bugs the hell out of me- arguably and in many ways better than a waveserpent and completely outgunning it. Better than a tri-las predator in killing tanks.

 

And cheaper than either.

 

:)?

[Vaktathi]

Even using it without a Vet squad, its still 130 points for a triple Lascannon platform that you can move 6" and still fire everything.

 

I kinda find it annoying that its as accurate as a tri-Lascannon Predator (piloted by Marines) and almost 25% cheaper...

 

Even if you just have it hang back behind your gunline of Leman Russes, it still presents a very dangerous amount of firepower, much better then walking Lascannon Obliterators.

 

EDIT: It even beats out my new favorite Loyalist toy, the dual Autocannon Gun Dread (RifleDread).

Yeah, it bugs the hell out of me- arguably and in many ways better than a waveserpent and completely outgunning it. Better than a tri-las predator in killing tanks.

 

And cheaper than either.

 

:)?

 

While true, it does lack that nifty and amazingly powerful energy field of the Wave Serpent and all the other Eldar goodies like Vectored/Star Engines, etc.

 

That said, it is pretty ridiculous for 130pts, and when coupled with Leman Russ tanks (pop the rhino with vendetta, battlecannon troops) is probably why I haven't pulled anything worse than draws in my favor against SM's with my mech IG in 5 months, not withstanding the utility of Chimerabunkers.

 

At the very least the Vendetta should have been an HS and not a Fast Attack unit

[minigun762]

At the very least the Vendetta should have been an HS and not a Fast Attack unit

 

Really that would have fixed it for the most part.

 

I would have liked to see a weaker Vendetta/Valkyrie. Not one that out-guns a Thunderhawk with the same armor.

 

Why is that? I see no reason the Vendetta should be AV12/12/10.

 

Really some combination of the following fixes would have balanced it.

1) reduce the triple TL'd Lascannons to something more reasonable

2) reduce the armor to AV10 or 11. Make it a flying Rhino not a flying Wave Serpent.

3) increase the price tag to 150-160 atleast.

 

I would have liked to see something like this:

 

3 Lascannons

AV11/11/10

140 points

[Marshal Wilhelm]

Hmmm. The AirCav sound like a dog to fight.

From a practical standpoint, would someone who plays both SM & IG write a list for each (a compact list with regards to number of lines, if possible) of a typical Air Cav IG army and then an UM army that would play well against it (UM because they are a good template, play well against rather than "be the perfect army to beat it" so you don't end up with a super specialised army that suffers versus a different foe.

Then include a 'how to' for the UM to go well. For a 1500 pts game (I think it is easier to boost a 1500 to a 1750 than trim a 1750 to 1500)

Please?

[Vaktathi]

It's armor, EA, and weapons alone I think 130 is a fair price in a vacuum, even with the transport capacity, as its still not all that hard to kill a large AV12 vehicle with relatively little damage mitigation except movement. The AV12 makes it much easier to kill than even just AV13.

 

But it's really the Scout/Ouflank/Deep Strike coupled with the synergy of being an FA unit that isn't taking up your ability to take Leman Russ tanks is what makes it OTT. Being able to take essentially a flying predator, and leman russ tanks, is something that I've been able to exploit to a ridiculous degree. I don't think I've met an SM opponent (CSM's, Smurfs, DA's, etc) that's been able to hold their own against a mech IG list taking advantage of that synergy. Even just making the Vendetta a Heavy Support unit while keeping the same cost would have solved a lot of problems as the IG HS section is extremely cramped and competitive and would have left the FA section a little less pressured from the Vendettas amazingness and cut the synergistic power that coupling Vendettas with LRBT's brings (pop those rhinos, then battlecannon the contents).

[Iron_Chaos_Brute]

Hmmm. The AirCav sound like a dog to fight.

From a practical standpoint, would someone who plays both SM & IG write a list for each (a compact list with regards to number of lines, if possible) of a typical Air Cav IG army and then an UM army that would play well against it (UM because they are a good template, play well against rather than "be the perfect army to beat it" so you don't end up with a super specialised army that suffers versus a different foe.

Then include a 'how to' for the UM to go well. For a 1500 pts game (I think it is easier to boost a 1500 to a 1750 than trim a 1750 to 1500)

Please?

 

IG 1500:

CCS, Astropath, 4 Meltas

10 Veterans, 3 Melta

10 Veterans, 3 Melta

10 Veterans, 3 Melta

10 Veterans, 3 Flamer

10 Veterans, 3 Flamer

2 Vendettas

2 Vendettas

3 Valkyries, Multiple Rocket Pods

 

All comers Marines 1500, with a view towards defeating air cav.

Khan

6 Hammernators

LRC, MM

2x10 CCW scouts, Combi-melta

3x2 Land Speeder Typhoon

 

If you go first and the IG player is dumb enough to deploy anything, blow the hell out of it with the typhoons.

 

You want to go second, though.

Keep everything in reserve, try to get his reserves on first, get on the board with an outflanking LRC, MM/AC, charge what remains, Typhoons down the others. Scouts can outflank to take backfield objectives. Once all the Valks/Vends are down, Typhoons switch over to frag.

[Deathwing]

Kind of dice dependant though. You're hoping first that you go 2nd, then that his reserves come on before yours (though with the astropath there is a good chance of that) and then that you can outflank on the right side. But the choice of units seems good.

 

The Typhoon squadrons would actually be quite effective as you should be able to score one or two hits on each Valk/Vend in the squadron and at least stop them from shooting.

 

Not too sure about the scouts as they could be easily shot to pieces by the rocket pods but they would be more than a match for the Guardsmen in combat once the skimmers are popped.

[Iron_Chaos_Brute]

It's supposed to be somewhat take all comers, though. That's as good as I can get at 1500 without tailoring.

[Warp Angel]

Use of reserves is important when facing a skilled player with an Air Cav list. I play both and speak from experience.

 

Melta bikes are your friend. 305 points gets you a unit with a Power Fist, Multi Melta, Melta Gun, Flamer, lots of twin linked bolters, T5, and the ability to catch the Valk/Vendetta. Oh, and they're relentless, so they can assault the vets after they've been dumped out of a wreck or follow up shooting with assault. One bike squad can absolutely WRECK the guard player's day. Attack bikes are less expensive at 150 points with 3 multi-meltas, but are also at higher risk and less able to absorb casualties. It's up to you to balance them.

 

Melta speeders and typhoons are equally valid choices, and when combined with the bikes and attack bikes really ruin your opponent's ability to prioritize targets.

 

Add in a tactical squad or two in Rhinos, a Vindicator and a Thunderfire, and your opponent gets mightily confused about what to do.

 

But as many others on this list say: Fast Attack against Enemy Armor.

[Marshal Wilhelm]

It's supposed to be somewhat take all comers, though. That's as good as I can get at 1500 without tailoring.

 

I forgot to say it, so thank you for writing that up. :D