preds..vehicles in general

[chillin]

I used to love my dakka preds in 3rd ed., move and fire 8 shots ! But lots of rules that effect usefullness of preds are in now.. I rarely take preds but when I do I must say I'm usually a bit disappointed and just wish I had bought more csm's or termicide or oblits.

Are others experiencing this ?? Using pred less and less and then being disappointed (but not surprized) when you use it only does..bla ?

Or how many out there are still using preds and still doing well w/ them.

Most agree that vindi's are not very good. And now I'm reading (and experiencing) how preds are showing up less and less.

Are tanks going the way of the chaos dread and bikes in this dex/rules ed. ??

[the jeske]

yep they do lack fire power[or rather its too easy to get cover for horde] and mobilty. generally they fit in to odd point games [like playing 1250 or 1850] . otherwise always oblits.

[DuskRaider]

I use my Predator every once in a while when I feel like fielding armour. I play mine as a tank hunter only, all Lascannons. Slap it in some terrain and go to town picking off those pesky [insert Enemy Vehicle Here]. I've actually had great luck with mine, especially against Tau believe it or not. The worst I've had happen is it gets immobilized, but then again I don't intend to move it from its cover so it doesn't matter. In all, I've taken out 2 Hammerheads in one game, which is good because that was all of my opponent's Heavy Selection.

 

I don't know about you, but I refuse to jump on the Obliterator band wagon.

[Zhukov]

Are tanks going the way of the chaos dread and bikes in this dex/rules ed. ??

 

For me yes, it already happened. Played with all the vehicles, but like you say they are almost always kinda dissapointing. I had games where I just wished I had taken Oblits, while I never had a single game where I wished I had not taken Oblits.

 

Its not that our vehicles suck so hard (our vindies are better than the loyalists ones, and Defilers are still kinda usefull compared to other dexes), but Oblits are just so much better if you are aiming for an allcomers list. There are almost no situations where Oblits are less good than *insert other heavy choice here* .

 

I dont play chaos for that long, so first I didnt really think the codex was boring, but more and more I realize it is... If you are being honest with yourself, you know there is no reason to take the lesser units (not talking about fluff here) as it is resulting in a lesser build. Its not even a close call, the best builds and units are clearly better. Not that I mind it that much myself, but I can imagine why other people do.

[Cale]

I play two predators and a vindicator in my usual 1500 point army, so I think the answer to your question is, "no, I still use preds."

 

I play the preds with just twin-linked lascannon turrets, no sponsons, and I like them pretty well. They're the best in their catagory, even if that catagory is "things with lascannons that don't lose effectiveness from moving, judged on speed, accuracy, and durability." Oblits are slower, less resilient, and their lascannons aren't twin-linked. They're much better if you get them close enough to use those twin-linked meltas (which basically requires deep-striking) and they're more versatile, but in the purely-long-range anti-tank department, there's no vehicle I'd rather have.

 

Of course, they are kinda blah. They fail to kill enemy vehicles more often than they succeed, but that's just the way vehicles work, now. Long range anti-tank is generally not very effective. Still, I find that I routinely need the ability to at least try to kill vehicles at range, and the predators deliver that ability in a cost-effective, mobile, and fairly durable platform.

[SquirrelKing]

I haven't tried preds in this edition yet (5th or "new" chaos) but I was wondering something:

 

Why the point drop for dakka and price increase for tri-las?

 

I mean the dakka has lost some effectiveness with the defensive weapons being str4 now. TBH that's why I had a dakka pred in 4th, so I could move and shoot everything, that was just fun :yes: . (I play 95% of games vs MEQs) I don't even want to think of BA players wth their Baals and heavy flamer sponsons... what a waste.

 

The tri -las hasn't gained anything (right?), and wasn't game breaking before so why the price increase? It has even less options than in the previous codex, which could make it expensive but very hard to kill (mutated hull + possession to start).

 

Too bad we lost some legion rules, an EC pred with sonic blaster sponsons might make sense now...

[VonMerrick]

I like using 2 vindicators for my Iron Warriors.

 

I have obliterators, but sometimes I like to be fluffy and use multiple vindicators as they have been a part of the Iron Warriors since the Index Astartes Article, and are mentioned in the Black Library Novels. However, if I'm playing against a serious opponent who isn't playing a fluff list, then I retool my list with Obliterators.

[Pigeons]

I don't know about you, but I refuse to jump on the Obliterator band wagon.

 

 

agreed, i absolutely refuse to use something so cheesy.

[minigun762]

Its not that our vehicles suck so hard (our vindies are better than the loyalists ones, and Defilers are still kinda usefull compared to other dexes), but Oblits are just so much better if you are aiming for an allcomers list. There are almost no situations where Oblits are less good than *insert other heavy choice here* .

 

One thing to consider is not to view the heavies in a vacuum (not saying you're doing this Zhukov, just wanted to quote your piece)

It might be easy for some to say Obliterators > other Heavies by themselves, you have to put it into context of your own army, your opponents army and as Jeske very accurately points out, your Meta game.

 

If you're running a Rhino rush army, then I'd contend that Predators/Vindicators/Defilers are better than Obliterators because they split that heavy weapon fire even more, where as Obliterators are just two wound Terminators and subject to being dakka'd down with small arms fire.

 

If you're running a Raider Rush army, naturally you probably won't have much in the way of heavy slots to spare for Obliterators.

 

Against a Daemon Army, I'd think that the Obliterator starts to lose its oomph compared to a Dakka Predator or Defiler/Vindicator because of the Inv saves negating his weapon's AP and the other units being able to put out more firepower. Plus Daemon armies struggle more against armor then they do slow TEQs.

 

I'm not hating on Obliterators, they're great units (even if I don't like the model) but I wouldn't say they are always better. Step back, look at the big picture and then decide.

Of course if you can't decide, they make a great default choice. :yes:

[GlauG]

Huh, as someone starting a new Chaos army, I'm disappointed to read this after buying some Chaos bikers and getting bits ready for a Predator conversion. :/ At least I have some Oblits too... I can probably fit all 3 going from 1000 to 1500pts at least.

[Pigeons]

oh and i forgot to say; i run three rhinos, two preds, a defiler and a dreadnought in my 2.5k list.

 

 

the dreadnought was thrown in more because i had the model lying around and didn't want to waste it than anything else. he'll just sit on one flank by himself so the crazed rule won't effect my own guys.

[Lord Humongous]

I've used the triple lascannon configuration (with possession) a couple times, and it seems worth the points under two conditions. First, you can allow side / rear shots, or at least have to obscure them. Second, you have to avoid moving, which usually means setting up / moving to a location where you have LOS on a "chokepoint" vehicles will need to go through. Thirdly, you need to run a mechanized force, so that its not a main focus for anti-tank fire; it makes a nice companion for a landraider, for example. If the table is wide open, they paradoxically seem to perform WORSE. I also wouldn't bother with possession again; you should be putting out more shots than you take in,

 

In my list, I had one LR, one triple las pred, and a unit of 3 oblits. Sure, a second unit of oblits might be just as good (or better) but the pred did its job... mostly. Not saying a point drop to match the loyalist version wouldn't be nice...

[Hydra Bait]

I run both Preds and Vindis regularly because of the same reasons minigun pointed out- my opponents love to point their big guns at the tanks first and worry about the Rhinos later, which is exactly what I want them to do. And since they are AV13, chances are usually pretty good that they'll at least make it to Round 2, which gives me plenty of time to allow my armor company CSM to park and get ready to assault Turn 3.

[Cale]

oh and i forgot to say; i run three rhinos, two preds, a defiler and a dreadnought in my 2.5k list.

 

 

the dreadnought was thrown in more because i had the model lying around and didn't want to waste it than anything else. he'll just sit on one flank by himself so the crazed rule won't effect my own guys.

 

Heck, I use four Rhinos, two Preds, and a vindicator at 1500 points =P. In 5th, mechanized = good.

[incinerator950]

It's an army of metal boxes in the Rhino Template with it's varries

[Pigeons]

oh and i forgot to say; i run three rhinos, two preds, a defiler and a dreadnought in my 2.5k list.

 

 

the dreadnought was thrown in more because i had the model lying around and didn't want to waste it than anything else. he'll just sit on one flank by himself so the crazed rule won't effect my own guys.

 

Heck, I use four Rhinos, two Preds, and a vindicator at 1500 points =P. In 5th, mechanized = good.

 

 

yup. other than the tanks i've got two squads of raptors, a demon prince with wings, a chaos lord with a jump pack, and three bikes.

 

 

everything mobile.

[chillin]

My last game I tried a perd w/ LC turret and HB sponsons, only 1 less shot then the dakka pred but you have that TL'ed LC against armor (at +30 pts of course :( ). It did ok, damaged a couple of vehicles (killed none), after turn 2 or 3 it was without turret and imbolized but still kept shooting HB's at dev's killing a few. It survived the game ( be it minus turret & immoblized) part b/c it was in cover and part b/c my opponent made a HUGH mistake w/ his dev squad. I'm going to try this config. a few more times, to see how it wks.

I don't think preds will be as versitle and "good" as oblits but I'm not ready to put them in the scrap yard just yet.

[minigun762]

My last game I tried a perd w/ LC turret and HB sponsons, only 1 less shot then the dakka pred but you have that TL'ed LC against armor (at +30 pts of course :( ). It did ok, damaged a couple of vehicles (killed none), after turn 2 or 3 it was without turret and imbolized but still kept shooting HB's at dev's killing a few. It survived the game ( be it minus turret & immoblized) part b/c it was in cover and part b/c my opponent made a HUGH mistake w/ his dev squad. I'm going to try this config. a few more times, to see how it wks.

I don't think preds will be as versitle and "good" as oblits but I'm not ready to put them in the scrap yard just yet.

 

Truth be told, I think the TL-LasCannon/Heavy Bolter is the worst of the 4 configuations you can field. The weapons don't match up and you can't move and fire anymore.

 

If you want a mix, I still stand behind the Combi-Predator (AutoCannon, LasCannons). 5 points cheaper and much more able to take out vehicles/MCs while still being moderately useful against infantry.

[DuskRaider]

As a follow up on mine, the best way to use one is with a full compliment of Heavy Support. I'll go with my full-Las Predator along with either 2 Vindicators, or a Vindicator and a Defiler. These will make great targets for your enemy and seeing as I use all Plague Marines, it means they have a tough time deciding on what to concentrate on. If they go for the tanks, they leave the Plague Marines unmolested on their march forward. They go for the PMs, then the tanks have free reign to do their damage.

[Pigeons]

speaking of tanks...i just got hired for a job today so i treated myself and bought the three rhinos, defiler and 2nd pred i needed.

 

 

i'm excited, now i'm just three bikes and two more boxes of raptors away from a complete 2.5k army ^.^

[chillin]

Truth be told, I think the TL-LasCannon/Heavy Bolter is the worst of the 4 configuations you can field. The weapons don't match up and you can't move and fire anymore.

 

I used to think same thing, but a couple of guys on this site made a good case for it. Like I said, 1 less shot then dakka vs infantry, but can take out armor. If it does move it can fire the TL las instead of a single las or AC. It's true that HB's useless if shooting against armor but an AC only slightly above useless against hvy armor, useless against LR, only glance on 6 vs. preds (front). Like I said I'm going to try this config. a few more games, then I will try AC & LC's pred a few games. Don't know that I will try tri-las, it's just SOOOO expensive.

[chillin]

speaking of tanks...i just got hired for a job today so i treated myself and bought the three rhinos, defiler and 2nd pred i needed.

 

Excellent, have fun.

[Pigeons]

next step: painting it all, haha

[minigun762]

but an AC only slightly above useless against hvy armor, useless against LR, only glance on 6 vs. preds (front). Like I said I'm going to try this config.

 

Oh I wasn't saying don't keep playing with it, playtesting > theoryhammer 90% of the time. :lol:

 

As far as the AutoCannon, I'd argue that its intended role isn't to bust heavy armor because lets face it, even a LasCannon is only a moderate choice for that. For AV13/14 you want/need Melta weapons.

 

However against AV10-12, the AutoCannon kicks butt, and surprisingly enough, that is the range for almost all transports/walkers in the game.

[chillin]

However against AV10-12, the AutoCannon kicks butt, and surprisingly enough, that is the range for almost all transports/walkers in the game.

 

Oh, dakka pred great for popping rinos. Remember until reciently I was a big fan of dakka pred. Part of what made me"not so much" was my last game was against tau, the guys army was vehicles (AV 13 skimmers :P ), and those annoying battle/crisis suits (2+ armor), so the only thig my dakka had a chance of hurting was a filler squad of kroot. Dakka pred doesn't do much better vs mechdar. So I thougt I'd experient alittle.