Pack Armaments for 5th Edition

[Rokafort Stonewolf]

Well, after doing about a week's worth of digging around looking for good articles on Space Wolf weapon options...I didn't find any. I know we've got a new codex coming soon, and I'm sure that's going to make this thread a LOT less interesting, but I love the Wolves and really want to get back to playing them. This is entirely for optimization purposes, I can work out how far I want to go on this _later_, but I'll probably run with it all the way.

 

The loadouts I need to optimize are as follows:

- 6 Grey Hunters in a Razorback (current thought: meltagun, 2 plasma pistols, power fist, bolters)

- 9 or 10 Grey Hunters in a Rhino (current thought: meltagun, 2 plasma pistols, 2 power fists?, bolters) WGPL with combi-melta, PF

- 10 Grey Hunters in a Drop Pod (current thought: meltagun, 2 plasma pistols, 2 power fists, bolters) WGPL with TDA, PF, combi-melta

- 9 or 10 Blood Claws in a Rhino (current thought: flamer, 2 power fists)

- 15 Blood Claws in a Crusader (current thought: flamer, 3 power fists)

- 4 WGBG TDA with WGBL (current thought: 2 AC and PF+WGBL AC and FB, 2 Combi-Melta and PW)

 

Am I overdoing it on the power fists? Should I have more regular PW? Should I drop some assault power for more shooty? I'd like to consider drop armies, as well as mixed armies using scouts, possibly outflankers, as well as some drop pods to create a lot of havoc and hit the enemy everywhere at once, forcing him into CC with at least one of my big threats (WGBGs or Blood Claws).

 

The other question is: plasma guns or meltaguns? I've been seeing a LOT of people here running PGs in their packs instead of meltas; why, and what are you using to take out tanks instead? WGBG?

 

Finally, what should I be arming my Razorbacks with now that we get them cheap, at least according to everyone I've played with (we know the FAQ was never tested or even proofread...)? The TL HBs for next to no points is delicious, very delicious indeed. Is going up to the TLAC or TLLC worth 75 points? The other options look terrible.

[WG Vrox]

Purpose of your question, do you own these models and are now looking to build them, or are you asking to determine what to buy?

 

- 6 Grey Hunters in a Razorback (current thought: meltagun, 2 plasma pistols, power fist, bolters)

This would more likely be a RB that has a TLHF for a gun, getting up close and personal with the enemy. If you are doing anything else you are going to be sitting at range protecting a close/home objective and shooting, with that in mind you should drop the PP, exchange the MG for a PG, for range rapid fire purposes.

 

- 9 or 10 Grey Hunters in a Rhino (current thought: meltagun, 2 plasma pistols, 2 power fists?, bolters) WGPL with combi-melta, PF

I would suggest going with power weapons on the GH and PF on the WGPL, keeps your number of attacks high with the new PF rule.

 

- 10 Grey Hunters in a Drop Pod (current thought: meltagun, 2 plasma pistols, 2 power fists, bolters) WGPL with TDA, PF, combi-melta

same as above, drop the 2 PF for 2 PW and give the WGPL a SS and PF.

 

- 9 or 10 Blood Claws in a Rhino (current thought: flamer, 2 power fists)

Run these guys with a HQ that has a Frost Blade

 

- 15 Blood Claws in a Crusader (current thought: flamer, 3 power fists)

same run these guys with a HQ that has a FB.

 

Am I overdoing it on the power fists? Should I have more regular PW? Should I drop some assault power for more shooty? I'd like to consider drop armies, as well as mixed armies using scouts, possibly outflankers, as well as some drop pods to create a lot of havoc and hit the enemy everywhere at once, forcing him into CC with at least one of my big threats (WGBGs or Blood Claws).

 

Yes,

Yes,

No,

yep, viable tactics, exensive but fun.

 

The other question is: plasma guns or meltaguns? I've been seeing a LOT of people here running PGs in their packs instead of meltas; why, and what are you using to take out tanks instead? WGBG?

 

anything that you plan to get close with I suggest Melta, anything that is going to keep at range, PGs. I like to use attack bikes for my anti tank, but I run MG in my assult squads as you can't fire a PG and assult.

 

Finally, what should I be arming my Razorbacks with now that we get them cheap, at least according to everyone I've played with (we know the FAQ was never tested or even proofread...)? The TL HBs for next to no points is delicious, very delicious indeed. Is going up to the TLAC or TLLC worth 75 points? The other options look terrible

 

I am fan of the TLHB. only other weapon I would consider for my RB would be the LC with TLPGs. but depends on what mission you plan to give them in the game.

 

WG Vrox.

[Hfran Morkai]

In my humble opinion I suggest dropping those plasma pistols. If you are reallu unlucky you can do more damage to yourself than to the enemy. It was always fun in 4th though when you got two shots for staying still and it overheated on 1s and 2s.

[KeithGatchalian]

RAW, you still pay the points cost for Razors and Rhino's from CSW, not CSM. No mention is made in the SW FAQ, and you cannot rely on translations made from other languages to support your point.

[Rokafort Stonewolf]

Wow, THIS is what I get on such a big topic? Well, thanks for the help Vrox, I appreciate it.

 

Also, you're right! The PW _does_ do more wounds vs MEQ now, unless charging (where the PF has the advantage). Sounds like PF for Blood Claws and PW for everybody else...

[Megalodon]

RAW, you still pay the points cost for Razors and Rhino's from CSW, not CSM. No mention is made in the SW FAQ, and you cannot rely on translations made from other languages to support your point.

Well I would argue that if the FAQ's in other languages and the UK GT FAQ say that Rhinos and Razorbacks are chosen from the SM codex, that there is plenty of support to use the cheap points from CSM.

[Grey Mage]

RAW, you still pay the points cost for Razors and Rhino's from CSW, not CSM. No mention is made in the SW FAQ, and you cannot rely on translations made from other languages to support your point.

I can if Im playing in canada.... not all countries/states are so snobby as to disregard the native languages of their players just because its not english.

 

As for the OP:

Many of your ideas are spot on, but expensive. I tend to find that 3 upgrades works best for me- either two ranged or two CC, and one of the other. So for example heres my two most common pack setups:

 

10x GHs- 8 Bolter, P.Rifle, P. Pistol, P. Fist- 215pts.

10x GHs- BP+CCWW, 2xP.Weapon, Meltagun- 200pts.

 

Etc etc. The exception that makes the rule is that Ill often load more upgrades into drop pods, especially ranged upgrades and pack leaders as I find that they need to do alot of damage as soon as they hit the ground- and if they need another 20pts to do it Ill trim down points elsewhere to make sure that squad not only accomplishes its mission, but survives it.

[Vassakov]

We buy our tanks out of C:SW. The ommission of Rhinos/Razorbacks from the English FAQ was confirmed as an oversight by GW, they just refuse to change it for some bizarre reason.

 

Anyways, I usually run three of the following squads:

 

6x Grey Hunters, 1x Meltagun, 1x Power Weapon, 1x Power Fist

Razorback - TLHB, Storm Bolter.

 

This gives the squad the ability to deal with almost anything thrown at it in either Shooting in Assault, and has served me well in many a battle, seeing off Land Raiders, Deathwing, Hive Tyrants, Possessed and Orks.

[Rokafort Stonewolf]

So the greyhunters are running pistols along with that meltagun? I don't see them having very much shooty power against things like Orks. How will they stop fast moving hordes?

[Grey Mage]

Lol, depends- with orks its not a problem, theyll come to me.

 

But the thing is I usually put them in a rhino, so I have the option to go them :).

 

And of course theres the simple answer of- If I cant assault I probly cant shoot- so I run. And with Counterattack I dont have to worry quite as much about getting the charge off- Ill try for it, but I wont play subtle for it except against Bloodletters.

[Vassakov]

Grey Mage has got it. It's amazing what kind of damage 5 Bolters, a Storm Bolter and a TLHB can do to a horde squad, and then counter charge provides more than a match in CC.

 

Also, using the Razors I am often able to run them in tandem against a single enemy unit, cripple it and then move on.

[Wolf Guard Nostromo]

I base most of my forces on a combination of the following three 'all purpose' packs if I don't know what I'm facing (all GH with B/CCW if not mentioned):

 

6GH (1PW/BP, 1MG) in a Razorback with heavy bolters and storm bolter

6GH (1PF/B, 1 PG) in a Razorback with Lascannons

9GH (2PW/BP, 1MG) with PL (PF, MCW, WP) in a naked rhino (this has won many a recent battle, but is hardly cheap... downgrade PL if points are tight)

 

All can deal with most threats in one way or another and can dish out the hurt with bolters too. The first is also fairly cheap and I often use three of these as a solid backbone. More specialised squads can be tailored to your opposition if you have some scoop beforehand! I would suggest 2 upgrades on 6 man pack and 3/4 on 10 man packs. PL leadership 9 for counter attack is worthwhile if you have many models who benefit from it (i.e. have a BP or PF/TH)

 

In drop pods, I tend to load out plasma more, but thats mainly because I love image of the pod opening and plasma fire pouring out. However, I have also found success by leaving the hunters fairly bare and giving the pack leader the works e.g.

 

9GH (8 B/CCW, 1 PG) + PL (TH, CPW, WP, RC) in Drop Pod/Rhino

 

Thats my thoughts anyway...

[Rokafort Stonewolf]

Nostromo, why not spend the extra 20 points for a pair of plasma pistols in the plasma-laden squads? In rapid-fire range it almost triples the damage output of the squad (the two bolters are more negligible) and it gives you some punch on the way into an assault if you want it. Admittedly it costs as much as a 7th grey hunter, but don't the two plasmas add more than another body somewhere?

[Wolf Guard Nostromo]

Nostromo, why not spend the extra 20 points for a pair of plasma pistols in the plasma-laden squads? In rapid-fire range it almost triples the damage output of the squad (the two bolters are more negligible) and it gives you some punch on the way into an assault if you want it. Admittedly it costs as much as a 7th grey hunter, but don't the two plasmas add more than another body somewhere?

 

I agree to a point, and its a tactic I do employ sometimes. I think 'tripling' the damage output is abit extreme though... 2 extra plasma shots replacing 4 bolter rounds... depends what you are shooting at I suppose :(

 

I think I've gone off it recently as I've favoured meltaguns for Grey Hunters and because of a sequence of bad overheat rolls. I use the 'luxury' points of plasma pistols to add an extra pack leader... 4 plasma pistols is 40 points, and for 48 you can buy a pack leader with a powerfist and wolf pelt who won't kill himself and has 4 powerfist attacks on the inevitable countercharge. I also tend to go for hard targets with my podding units, and so powerfists/meltas are more useful than plasma pistols. Same goes for scouts. Its points I just use elsewhere at the moment. I would also be surprised if 3 plasma weapon squads is something we keep in the new codex, but who am I to say eh?

 

Thats the thing about Grey Hunters though... Soooo flexible.

[Grey Mage]

One thing to note is points efficiencey- yes each squad can have five options and a upgraded to the max wolf gaurd pack leader with an upgraded transport- but then youve spent around 400pts on an 11 man squad who cant even use their 75pt rhino. *extra armor, extra stormbolter, HK missile, dozerblade- yeah, its real*.

 

Youll never make your points back. Thats why as a general rule I tend to stick with three upgrades per squad, and take pack leaders sparingly- ie only if I think Ill need the extra leadership alot, or I have 50 left over points *all my pack leaders run 50 or 55pts depending if they have TDA or not*.

 

You want to maximize effectiveness and durability while reducing cost whenver possible- for instance do you really need those two plasma pistols or should you just take the rifle instead? Do you want that combi-weapon on your WGPL or would it be better to spend those 10pts on a SS and TDA so to shield the squad against enemy heavy weapons?

 

Think like an engineer- the unit is perfect when youve stripped away everything you possibly can and itll still do everything you need it to.

[Lord Ragnarok]

In my humble opinion I suggest dropping those plasma pistols. If you are reallu unlucky you can do more damage to yourself than to the enemy. It was always fun in 4th though when you got two shots for staying still and it overheated on 1s and 2s.

 

I played extensive plasma lists in 4th, now that please hurts less in 5th, why would you take less? Overheating in my experience has been overrated. I've always done far more damage to my enemy than dying from overheats. And not everyone will be able to get into cover and if they do, just increase your hits by including a flamer somewhere in the pack.

[clanfield]

ah the thing i find with over heat is it pops up just at the wrong moment,

 

i use 2 kinds of grey hunters

fire support -10x in a rhino-bolters and a plas gun

or

assult-6-10x rhino or basic razor-bp,cc,melta,1 power fist-if its a 6 man i add 1 plas pistol for a beef up

 

but then i like long fangs as well which makes me odd they say :P

[Hfran Morkai]

In my humble opinion I suggest dropping those plasma pistols. If you are reallu unlucky you can do more damage to yourself than to the enemy. It was always fun in 4th though when you got two shots for staying still and it overheated on 1s and 2s.

 

I played extensive plasma lists in 4th, now that please hurts less in 5th, why would you take less? Overheating in my experience has been overrated. I've always done far more damage to my enemy than dying from overheats. And not everyone will be able to get into cover and if they do, just increase your hits by including a flamer somewhere in the pack.

 

Fair enough, it's just that for some reason I tend to do a lot of damage to myself with plasma pistols. Anyway I'd much rather have a guy with bolter as it's got better range if fighting an army that's going to get up close and personal. Plus I can't justify the points for plasma pistols, I'd rather have power weapons.

[Rokafort Stonewolf]

The new codex thing Nostromo mentioned is why I've actually decided to put my Wolves on hold yet again. Thanks, GW, for ruining things for players yet again. I'm going back to playing Swords for Hire and modelling random vehicles. Maybe finish my Eldar Corsairs and/or Emlia 40k...

[LoneSniperSG]

Whether or not this will be soon obsolete, it's a hell of a nice help for me. I've been getting wildly varying advice lately on how to best equip my GH's for general situations.

 

I only have about 3 or so packs of GH. If I get any more, I will start making specific-use equipment builds with them.

[Demogerg]

Think like an engineer- the unit is perfect when youve stripped away everything you possibly can and itll still do everything you need it to.

Great advice.

 

I run killer units of blood claws like this

 

Land raider crusader, extra armor, multimelta

11 Blood Claws, 3x powerfists

Wolf Guard Pack Leader, thunderhammer, bolt pistol, maybe a wolf pelt

Wolf Guard Battle Leader, frostblade, stormshield, bolt pistol, maybe a wolf pelt

 

13 man unit that smashes in with 5 S5 I5 power weapon attacks that cripples most small MEQ squads, 30+ regular I4 S4 attacks to stack some wounds up, thin hoards, etc, 9 powerfist attacks to destroy just about anything left over, and 3 thunderhammer attacks to keep MC at I1 for future rounds of combat, and to stun vehicles to make them an easy kill next round if you failed to take it down.

 

when it comes down to close range fire support for this unit i have an assault cannon, 2 hurricane bolters, a multimelta, and 13 bolt pistol shots. firepower aplenty to thin out hoards and pop transports.

 

as for grey hunters i usually run them in squads of 9 with a battle leader, in a rhino with bolters and melta, drive up, shoot the melta out of the hatch to pop their transport, or unload and rapidfire into them untill they decide to charge in, where my wolf guard battle leader can make use of his frostblade and wolf pelt to hack them down before they get to swing.

[WG Vrox]

When constructing packs, I think more along the lines of Grey Mage, in that I never pass a 1 to 1 ratio of special weapon to standard equiment. So in a pack of 9 GH, I will run 2 PW 1PP and 1 Melta gun. This seems to give me a fair amount of soak off units before I have to assign wound allocations to those wolves carring special weapons. Given the new allocation system, you can't count on this keeping your more expensive units from dying, but it helps.

 

WG Vrox

[Valerian]

There is no magic formula for "optimizing" your packs. My simple rule is for you to figure out what the battlefield role

for your unit will be, then equip the pack for that role. Once you've got the pack properly equiped, then figure out what your mobiliy requirements are and get them he proper transport, if any.

 

Let's use various Grey Hunter packs as examples. If you want one pack for consolidating an objective in your deployment zone, then they won't need any assault weapons, or plasma pistols, and will only need one special close combat weapon (probably) for defending themselves from leakers in the backfield. Give them a plasmagun to compliment the bolters, and don't worry about a transport ( unless you want a Rhino or Razorback to help provide cover and provide additional support. Depending on your enemy's ability to project his forces on the battlefield, you might take

some risk with this unit and take a smaller pack.

 

A pack that you intend to be an Assault unit, will need transportation (Rhino or Land Raider, or maybe a Drop Pod) and will need an assault weapon Flamer or Meltagun, maybe a Plasma Pistol or two ( depending on armor of enemy) and will need to maximize in special close combat weapons. This type of unit should be accompnied by a Wolf Guard Pack Leader at a minimum; one of your Independent Characters would be better. Also don't upgrade to Bolters, just keep the Bolt Pistols that they come with. This pack will take (and cause) casualties, so max them out on size.

 

For a pack that will follow an Assault Force, to consolidate forward

objectives, arm them with Bolters and a Plasmagun like

your other consolidation force. This pack is likely to get charged though, so give them a Pack Leader with a Wolf Pelt and several special close combat weapons. Keep them at a decent size (about 8) and give them a Rhino or Drop Pod for mobility.

 

These are the three primary roles for Grey Hunters, so I won't go into describing how

to equip them any other way.

 

Best regards,

 

Valerian

[Vassakov]

What he said <_<