Heavy Bolters?

[DerekLee688]

What units do you shoot at to maximize their effectivenes? Flamers eat orks, nids, and IG. Melta's eat MEQ's, Terminators, and Armor. ML tank transports and horde. Etc, etc...

 

I got a TLHB arm for a dread I pair with Auto-cannon for a dakka dread along with Razorback?Land Raider/Land speeder. Most people in topics say avoid them in favor of the ML. Are these just another horde gun?

[ShinyRhino]

They feel like long-range anti horde. You don't get the sheer numbers that a flamer will claim up close, but don't suffer the scatters from a missile launcher frag template. They can also pop light armor (landspeeders, Rhino side armor, etc).

The S5 also makes them reliable for wounding T4 troops (MEQ), and the AP4 is nice for denying armor saves to Guard and unbuffed Nids.

 

The thing i struggle with them is, what special weapon to pair with one in a Tactical Squad. None of the available specials really compliment the heavy bolter all that well. Meltas are an anti-tank weapon with a super-short range. Flamers are anti-horde, but rarely get a shot off unless you're jumping out of a Rhino. Plasma is the closest match, but the ranges don't mesh well with the 36" stationary shots of the heavy bolter.

[Sternguard sergeant McColl]

Best tacken in large quantities i find, 3 speeders with two HB's each will eat anything alive bar MEQ, and it even hurts them bad. i don't like random HB's, but the range helps kill something retreating and trying to deny you a KP.

[Koremu]

Eldar, Genestealers, Tyranid Warriors, etc

 

As far as Infantry goes, best used to enhance the anti-infantry aspect of a Squad that already has ample anti-tank, such as;

 

Tactical Squad, 10 Members

Power Fist, Combi-Melta, Meltagun, Heavy Bolter

 

In this case the Heavy Bolter give anti-infantry firepower and range for objective sitting purposes, to a squad which already has serious anti-tank power.

[chapter master 454]

I prefer thinking of my tacticals (while I do not like them I have to take two of there blooming things) as the guys who may do sweet jack in a match however I kit them out with plasma cannon and flamer. 175 points for a unit that can hammer MEQ and even chew up orks while if they have to go for an objective them have something to clear the place out. They are ether using the flamer or plasma cannon never both because I pair the flamer with a pre-charge bolt pistol blitz (hopefully thats 9 bolt pistols plus flamer) or a plasma cannon shot at long range and so far the combo is highly successful, they are a flexible unit with weapon choices for ether moving and gunning or fire basing.

 

As for you dread, that thing is pumping out 5 shots at 36" however you may find you want to reduce to 4 shots but all at str 7 which is better than a HB as you now can engage light armour and even infantry if you want with little problem.

[Grey Mage]

The thing i struggle with them is, what special weapon to pair with one in a Tactical Squad. None of the available specials really compliment the heavy bolter all that well. Meltas are an anti-tank weapon with a super-short range. Flamers are anti-horde, but rarely get a shot off unless you're jumping out of a Rhino. Plasma is the closest match, but the ranges don't mesh well with the 36" stationary shots of the heavy bolter.

Why complement? Diversify and overlap- go with the plasmagun.

 

Its got bolter equivilant range, and can rapid fire. It can take out light tanks, and in some cases will get help from the heavy bolter. Whereas the heavy bolter will kill mid toughness things the plasmarifle will protect your investment against TDA and monstrous creatures.

 

Because even orks can get a 2+.

[minigun762]

The thing i struggle with them is, what special weapon to pair with one in a Tactical Squad. None of the available specials really compliment the heavy bolter all that well. Meltas are an anti-tank weapon with a super-short range. Flamers are anti-horde, but rarely get a shot off unless you're jumping out of a Rhino. Plasma is the closest match, but the ranges don't mesh well with the 36" stationary shots of the heavy bolter.

Why complement? Diversify and overlap- go with the plasmagun.

 

Its got bolter equivilant range, and can rapid fire. It can take out light tanks, and in some cases will get help from the heavy bolter. Whereas the heavy bolter will kill mid toughness things the plasmarifle will protect your investment against TDA and monstrous creatures.

 

Because even orks can get a 2+.

 

I'd agree that the Plasmagun is the perfect match for a Heavy Bolter.

Both are strong at killing basic infantry and match up well with the basic Bolter.

They both have high enough strength to wound weak vehicles and threaten MCs.

The last bonus is actually the Heavy Bolter's shorter range for a heavy weapon. You are more likely to use all the weapons in a squad then try and snipe things at 48" with a single Missile Launcher or some such thing.

[Vel'Cona]

I'll begin by pretty much stating that I have a long standing fondness for Heavy Bolters. They have solid range, hitting power, and answer well to Eldar Star Cannons and Tau Plasma Rifles (if you consider the average 4+ save of those armies). In my humble opinion, there are three top places to put them (in no particular order):

 

1. Stacked in Devastators. I would say this is probably the best use for Devs overall. Lots of anti-infantry firepower, and can put the fear of the God-Emperor into Ork transports and other light vehicles. Also the most cost effective stacking for the expensive Dev weapons, and can be combat squadded if necessary.

 

2. Dakkapred. This unit has turned heads in 5th with its ability to lay down strong firepower, get mobile if needed, and preserve points for other hard hitting units. The humble Dakkapred serves a very efficient firebase role, and is durable enough to be annoying, especially if deployed "hull down."

 

3. Razorback. I understand well the frequent dislike of "random Heavy Bolters," as it can be somewhat disruptive to the concentration to have to take an individual shot for a transport. That said, the HB RB provides an extremely cost effective (see a trend here?) firebase unit with moderate transport capability and all the advantages of Rhino corpsing, for only 5 points more. Easily my favorite transport, and the cheapest way in C:SM to get a Heavy Bolter (barring HB AB which aren't TL and waste the tank hunting capacity of the MM AB).

 

So I would say the general trend for Heavy Bolters is thus: anti-infantry firebase with very good range, reasonable cost, and prevalence of availability. I would be hard pressed to make a list without at least 3 or 4 of these weapons, TBH. :devil:

[ShinyRhino]

Some good ideas. I slapped a plasmagun into my heavy bolter-armed tactical squad. We'll see how it does on the 11th.

 

I have been looking at the heavy bolter attack bike recently, though. A squadron of three puts out 9 heavy bolter shots, plus three sets of twin-linked bolter fire every turn. That's some nice, fast anti-infantry shooting.

Also good as support for a regular biker squad with plasmaguns. At max strength (8 bikes and one attack bike), that's nine sets of twin-linked bolters, plus three heavy bolter shots. Sub in plasma shots for the two plasmagunners as needed/desired. More wounds, weaker shooting than the tri-AB setup.

 

Neither unit will break a vehicle that isn't AV10 without charging with grenades or a meltabomb, but it's some nice anti-infantry fire that can shoot-and-scoot with the best of them.

[Sgt.Larsen]

I use em in a dev squad. Use them for a fire base against orks that are running at me along with some template weapons to crack those squads open...

[Jamumools]

Re the attack bikes - I played an army with 3 heavy bolter attack bikes last night and they were nasty! For only 120 points...!

[monkey boy]

I like my heavy bolters too, I have one in a tactical squad as standard, and if I have the points I have a couple of dakka bikes escorting my MM bikes.

[Ming]

I prefer them in a 4 HB dev squad, or 3 HB and a MM. Massing them like that gives them a purpose...infantry killing / horde control.

[Grey Mage]

On a dreadnaught, as the OP was sayin hes got the arms for a dread, I really just am not a fan of TLHBs. It seems half baked to me- the assault cannon is stronger and has more shots and can penetrate AV 14, so IMHO is better all around. The TLAC has longer range and can take on light tanks... two of them makes a nasty mobile gun platform thats great versus hordes or skimmers. They heavy bolters just seem left out.

[Vel'Cona]

Haha, you're right I got totally off topic here. As far as the Dread I'd fully agree it's a waste to take that big nasty weapon slot and use it for a TL Heavy Bolter. The Assault Cannon is certainly the better all around weapon, as well as the TL LC for a bit of long range light-medium vehicle hunts. I would also recommend the MM; while it is a single shot, it's the cheapest option and overall the best for taking out heavy tanks, especially if you decide to DP the Dread. That aside, I don't feel that Dreads are as good of weapon platforms as they once were. As I previously stated, Predators and suchlike can do the same role for cheaper and with more durability/mobility, and losing the Dread's fist really degrades its threat in CC. I feel the best role for a Dreadnought is something of a psychological tool as well as a bastion/strongpoint attacker. When equipped cheaply (MM and HF, perhaps with EA) they serve as a strong draw for enemy fire, and are durable enough to be annoying for many opponents to nullify. Their profile and movement rules also benefit them greatly in tightly packed environments, where they can engage multiple models/units at once in CC and utilize their squat stance to gain Cover Saves as much as possible.

 

That aside, Dreads equipped with dual TL Autocannons are slowly gaining popularity for dealing with Skimmers and other light vehicles. This configuration is reasonably priced, and boasts good range and high accuracy for taking out fast moving opponents. As more armies are getting mechanized in 5th edition, I believe this configuration will become more desirable in the future. Now if only I could overcome my cheapness to order a pair of FW Autocannon arms! :)

[Koremu]

the cheapest way in C:SM to get a Heavy Bolter (barring HB AB which aren't TL and waste the tank hunting capacity of the MM AB).

 

I just want to pick up on this and comment that where the HBAB scores over the MMAB is its weapon synergy with the TL Bolters. Against T4 the Bolters cause an additional 66% wounds over the Heavy Bolters*.

 

So unless AP4 is especially critical, HBABs are better than a simple glance at their main armament suggests.

 

 

*Math;

 

Bolters = 6 Shots = 5.33 Hits = 2.66 Wounds

 

Heavy Bolters = 9 Shots = 6 Hits = 4 Wounds

[minigun762]

That aside, Dreads equipped with dual TL Autocannons are slowly gaining popularity for dealing with Skimmers and other light vehicles. This configuration is reasonably priced, and boasts good range and high accuracy for taking out fast moving opponents. As more armies are getting mechanized in 5th edition, I believe this configuration will become more desirable in the future. Now if only I could overcome my cheapness to order a pair of FW Autocannon arms! :devil:

 

I think that is one of the two best loadout for Dreadnoughts who go with dual guns. The other being the Plasma Cannon/Missile Launcher.

As a Chaos player, I wish we could field non-crazy Dreads for just this reason.

 

Koremu: That is a terrific point. People always forget about the little guns and focus on the special/heavies instead.

[Forgefather Vulkan]

I like to use heavy bolters in my dev squads for example I have a squad with 3 heavy bolters to gun down a unit and a plasma cannon to splat what's left!

[Vel'Cona]

Ack! The Mathhammer! It burns! :lol:

 

That is an excellent point though. I have a bad habit of dismissing smaller shots, like Chimera Lasguns (although I suppose it's the crew firing them now) and Rhino Storm Bolters. I suppose if you take into account the TL Bolter and Heavy Bolter in unison, the Attack Bike is a bit killier than at first glance. I'm not sure if this makes up for the lack of TL on the HB, but it does give the vanilla AB a slight edge over the HB RB. I would put in that one could upgrade the RB to have a SB on the hull, but that puts the RB at MM AB level point cost, which I feel is unnecessary (and over costed for just a dang Storm Bolter, I mean you can give one to an IC for 3 points but for some reason a tank's costs more than triple?).

 

Another interesting factor separating the AB and the RB is CC capability. While the RB can Tank Shock, the AB can actually engage in an Assault. I've been browbeaten about assaulting with AB in the past, but IMO that's still not necessarily a bad thing. I've had several games where my humble 50 point MM AB was used as a flank anchor against fast moving Tau Crisis Suits and Necron Scarabs. I'm not saying this is a great idea (in fact given another option I probably would have taken it), but in these situations the AB's ability to engage in melee helped protect the flanks from Melta weapons and Disruption Fields that were simply getting too close to my armor for comfort. I believe this could be seen as another slight advantage to the AB, as Tank Shock tends to fail quite a bit in Moralehammer (the fabled place where infantry in WH40k actually have to take Morale checks :D ).

[GreatEscape_13]

I love running a devastator squad with 4 heavy bolters. Point it at a unit on foot and kiss them goodbye. Even MEQs get wrecked pretty bad. Annihilates small squads and puts enough dent in a big horde to clean up after a template or two.

 

Cheers.

[Vel'Cona]

My only caveat to the x4 HB Dev Squad, is that to allow them to take wounds you'll need at least 8. This is to give them a 2:1 ratio of bullet catchers and HBs. This puts them at like 180 ish points, with no other upgrades. For 170 points you can get two Dakkapreds, with the advantage of AV13, 2 additonal Autocannons, the ability to move 12" should you need it (and 6" and still shoot one weapon), and the ability to Tank Shock. All the Devs have on the Preds is the BS5 from their Sergeant once per shooting phase (for one weapon), which only lasts until he gets knocked out. Not to mention two separate Dakkapreds could individually fire to weaken different units, rather than having to concentrate all their shots on one unit.

 

That said, the Pred still has to deal with things like Crew Shakened/Stunned and all that, but getting it cover shouldn't be too hard. I wouldn't call the HB Devs bad, but I'm still a bigger fan of the Pred by comparison.

 

Oh yeah, and I'd be silly not to at least say the 5 most important syllables in anti-horde: Thunderfire Cannon.

 

edit: A true member of the Astartes only takes time to count enemies felled. Math is for scribes and sissy Eldar.

[ShinyRhino]

Oh yeah, and I'd be silly not to at least say the 5 most important syllables in anti-horde: Thunderfire Cannon.

 

That's 6 syllables, friend :D

[Frosty the Pyro]

Oh yeah, and I'd be silly not to at least say the 5 most important syllables in anti-horde: Thunderfire Cannon.

 

That's 6 syllables, friend :)

No its 5. Fire has one syllable.

[Brother Tuditanus]

Th-un-der fire can-on ... 6 syllables!

[minigun762]

My only caveat to the x4 HB Dev Squad, is that to allow them to take wounds you'll need at least 8. This is to give them a 2:1 ratio of bullet catchers and HBs. This puts them at like 180 ish points, with no other upgrades. For 170 points you can get two Dakkapreds, with the advantage of AV13, 2 additonal Autocannons, the ability to move 12" should you need it (and 6" and still shoot one weapon), and the ability to Tank Shock. All the Devs have on the Preds is the BS5 from their Sergeant once per shooting phase (for one weapon), which only lasts until he gets knocked out. Not to mention two separate Dakkapreds could individually fire to weaken different units, rather than having to concentrate all their shots on one unit.

 

That said, the Pred still has to deal with things like Crew Shakened/Stunned and all that, but getting it cover shouldn't be too hard. I wouldn't call the HB Devs bad, but I'm still a bigger fan of the Pred by comparison.

 

Oh yeah, and I'd be silly not to at least say the 5 most important syllables in anti-horde: Thunderfire Cannon.

 

edit: A true member of the Astartes only takes time to count enemies felled. Math is for scribes and sissy Eldar.

 

And there in lies the problem with Heavy Bolter Devs/Havocks. Is the increase durability of MEQs better than the overall cheapness and more firepower of Dakka Predators?