Templates vs. Spacing

[DerekLee688]

I've played a few games with a person or two who bent/ommited/disregarded rules in the past. Is it possible to space units in a squad far enough for a small blast template to score a direct hit on a normal sized infantry and it hit no other units? Do you mesure for unit cohesion from center of bases or from the nearest two points?

[Captain Malachi]

I was thinking about this the other day, and I'm fairly sure it can be done. I can't remember the exact wording so forgive me if I'm wrong, but you can have up to 2" bewteen models, which means if you score a direct hit the 1.5" radius of the small blast template won't reach another model.

 

As far as I remember you measure unit coherency from base edge to base edge.

[Gurth]

Is it possible to space units in a squad far enough for a small blast template to score a direct hit on a normal sized infantry and it hit no other units?

Yes, because that template is 3 inches in diameter, or 1.5 inches in radius. Assuming it does not scatter, the hole must be over a model's base, so a model that is 1.5 inches or more away will not get hit. Because you are allowed to space models 2 inches apart, this is not all that hard to do.

 

However, most players I've seen place their models much closer together than that, and so make themselves easier targets for blast weapons. (Granted, with large armies, such as orks or tyrannids, you often don't have much choice.)

 

Do you mesure for unit cohesion from center of bases or from the nearest two points?

Between the edges of the bases.

[DerekLee688]

Fair enough, thanks.

[Cypher 102]

Keep in mind that the hole in the template has to be placed somewhere over the base, not the exact center of the base.

[igotsmeakabob!!]

Yeah, you can space your boys out so that a small template will only hit one.. I do it regularly when fighting other marines.

Plasma Cannon shots are painful, and the spacing definitely helps against larger templates, like Vindicators. Of course, one small scatter results in me taking 3-4 hits instead of 1.

[ShinyRhino]

Yeah, nothing less fun than waiting for someone to measure the exact 2" distance between all of the models in every unit on the board. :)

[chapter master 454]

Yeah, nothing less fun than waiting for someone to measure the exact 2" distance between all of the models in every unit on the board. :D

 

It also reeks of cheese. I normally find my guys have about a 1" distance between them because well I feel thats how a squad would be and I can't be bother measuring 2" every time! I did however face an ork player who does it. My thunderfire with cover ignorer round scattered all 4 times to hit at least 2 or more, oh how karma hated him! (lost about half his orks in that squad)

[igotsmeakabob!!]

Yeah, nothing less fun than waiting for someone to measure the exact 2" distance between all of the models in every unit on the board. :D

I don't know who would bother measuring this, I just eyeball it. I probably don't get 2", but 1.8" is enough.

[DevianID]

I admit, I measure the max 2 inches many a time. And while I hate myself for it, if the enemy is running a vindicator, by spacing abreast 2 inches each, a 5 man termie squad will only suffer 2 wounds from a large blast template direct hit, and 1 wound from a plasma cannon. Since we are given the option via the coherency rules of all my termies getting hit, or 1-2 termies getting hit, the smart play is one termie getting hit.

 

Is it cheesy? Yes and no. Yes, because I am using the coherency rule, designed to keep squads together, to push my squad apart. No, because if you see a giant shell being directed at you, any military unit ever would scatter.

 

I think the problem is that 2 inches is simply too large a coherency for 40k. In my honest opinion, we should have War of the Ring style movement trays, or a max coherency of 1 inch. The fact that you can nullify the advantage of small blast attacks by simply being at max coherency is a poor game design.

 

Also, if you pack as many models as possible in a circle, a small blast can hit 19 regular sized bases. So a squads coherency from the same blast ranges from 19 hits to 1 hit... this is far to variable to consider blast attacks balanced per the current rules.

[Grey Mage]

I admit, I measure the max 2 inches many a time. And while I hate myself for it, if the enemy is running a vindicator, by spacing abreast 2 inches each, a 5 man termie squad will only suffer 2 wounds from a large blast template direct hit, and 1 wound from a plasma cannon. Since we are given the option via the coherency rules of all my termies getting hit, or 1-2 termies getting hit, the smart play is one termie getting hit.

 

Is it cheesy? Yes and no. Yes, because I am using the coherency rule, designed to keep squads together, to push my squad apart. No, because if you see a giant shell being directed at you, any military unit ever would scatter.

 

I think the problem is that 2 inches is simply too large a coherency for 40k. In my honest opinion, we should have War of the Ring style movement trays, or a max coherency of 1 inch. The fact that you can nullify the advantage of small blast attacks by simply being at max coherency is a poor game design.

 

Also, if you pack as many models as possible in a circle, a small blast can hit 19 regular sized bases. So a squads coherency from the same blast ranges from 19 hits to 1 hit... this is far to variable to consider blast attacks balanced per the current rules.

 

I personally think the coherency rules are balanced by the scatter rules- if it moves two inches diagonally into your troops its now hitting four models instead of one, and often itll atleast hit two.

[Frosty the Pyro]

I admit, I measure the max 2 inches many a time. And while I hate myself for it, if the enemy is running a vindicator, by spacing abreast 2 inches each, a 5 man termie squad will only suffer 2 wounds from a large blast template direct hit, and 1 wound from a plasma cannon. Since we are given the option via the coherency rules of all my termies getting hit, or 1-2 termies getting hit, the smart play is one termie getting hit.

 

Is it cheesy? Yes and no. Yes, because I am using the coherency rule, designed to keep squads together, to push my squad apart. No, because if you see a giant shell being directed at you, any military unit ever would scatter.

 

I think the problem is that 2 inches is simply too large a coherency for 40k. In my honest opinion, we should have War of the Ring style movement trays, or a max coherency of 1 inch. The fact that you can nullify the advantage of small blast attacks by simply being at max coherency is a poor game design.

 

Also, if you pack as many models as possible in a circle, a small blast can hit 19 regular sized bases. So a squads coherency from the same blast ranges from 19 hits to 1 hit... this is far to variable to consider blast attacks balanced per the current rules.

 

It should be noted that staying at max coherency has several disadvantages as well,

 

Its harder to keep the squad suficiently in cover

It is less likely that all your models will be engaged if you are charged (or charge)

It is possible for the enemy to charge through you to hit more vulnerable enemies behind.

Enemies can use telion/Vindicator/gift of mutation/etc to break unit coherence forcing you to move and thus be unable to fire heavy/max range rapid fire weapons

Wound alocation can also do so (though less likely).

More likely to be within a radius effect (such as psychic scream or souless) that only requires one model to effect the entire unit.

[Gurth]

It is possible for the enemy to charge through you to hit more vulnerable enemies behind.

No, they can't. You have to stay more than 1 inch away from enemy models unless you are charging them, and if there is 2 inches between two models, there is no way you can move between them and stay at least 1 inch away from both of them …

[eyescrossed]

It is possible for the enemy to charge through you to hit more vulnerable enemies behind.

No, they can't. You have to stay more than 1 inch away from enemy models unless you are charging them, and if there is 2 inches between two models, there is no way you can move between them and stay at least 1 inch away from both of them …

Yes, they can.

 

 

 

AoBR Rulebook, page 34

 

All of the models in an assaulting unit make their assault move following the same rules as in the Movement phase, with the exception that they may be moved within 1" of enemy models. This means that assaulting models may still not move through friendly or enemy models, may not pass through gaps narrower than their base, and may not move into base contact with enemy models from a unit they are not assaulting.

Nothing restricting that.

[ArmouredWing]

Yeah, nothing less fun than waiting for someone to measure the exact 2" distance between all of the models in every unit on the board. :lol:

 

It also reeks of cheese. I normally find my guys have about a 1" distance between them because well I feel thats how a squad would be and I can't be bother measuring 2" every time! I did however face an ork player who does it. My thunderfire with cover ignorer round scattered all 4 times to hit at least 2 or more, oh how karma hated him! (lost about half his orks in that squad)

I'd have to disagree with the cheese statement. Spacing is a good, valid tactic which has advantages and disadvantages but depending on what you're facing depends on whether you want to space or not.

 

As previously mentioned the biggest disadvantage is the unit being knocked out of cohesion but realistically the only time this will happen is if you've got a unit in a line like this: X X X X X X X X X X.

 

For me the best way of spacing has got to be:

X X X X X

.X X X X X.

 

Putting the 2" spacing between each unit member means that there is minimal risk of losing cohesion because each squad member has at least 3 others within cohesion whilst templates can only acheive a limited amount of hits on the unit.

 

As for measuring? Well there's nothing in the rules that state you can't but after doing this enough times you will be able to space by eye. Failing that you could always buy a galeforce9 TAC template which has all of the vital distances on it. A very handy tool indeed.

[ShinyRhino]

Funny what an offhand comment can spawn.

 

The max spacing thing is fully acceptable within the rules of the game. I often do it with my Terminators when they number 5 men.

Is it cheezy? Nah. It's just annoying when playing across from someone who insists on spacing their Tau Fire Warriors exactly 1.99999 inches apart to avoid a frag missile template, and you then charge into them the next turn anyways.

[Cypher 102]

Simple solution get a Gale Force 9 T.A.C. Template. Or make one of your own.

[Isiah]

Yep a 2" length of card/old sprue saves a lot of tedius "measured" spacing, and is cheap :P. Still a pain with larger units though.

 

Anyway the rules question has been answered, general comments on tactical/effectiveness/worth-the-effort of spacing can go into Amicus.

[eyescrossed]

Yep a 2" length of card/old sprue saves a lot of tedius "measured" spacing, and is cheap :mellow:. Still a pain with larger units though.

 

Anyway the rules question has been answered, general comments on tactical/effectiveness/worth-the-effort of spacing can go into Amicus.

Shouldn't that go into the Tactics section? :)