Grey knights redeemer question

[AdeptusTerminautus]

I saw the kit on FW (http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/gklrr.htm), but do we even have rules for this thing or does it just look pretty. Because if we have official rules i'll use it.

[Inquisitor Agrippa]

Saw the rules on display at Games Day Toronto (with a nice sign saying Photographen Verbotten - sorry my German is non-existant). From what I gather they're in the New Varaks book and that should be out soon.

[AdeptusTerminautus]

Ok thank you, because i love the look of the model and want rules for it, time to start saving up.

 

Edit: the german is photography forbidden.

[Daedalus Templarius]

I should be getting mine this week sometime :)

 

I'll have to see what the gaming group says about flamestorm cannons ignoring invuln saves...

[Baragash]

Ignore me....posted on the wrong topic

[Uncle Mel]

You're probably talking about the blight drone or something :teehee: definately not the redeemer!

 

Mel

[Gentlemanloser]

I should be getting mine this week sometime :devil:

 

I'll have to see what the gaming group says about flamestorm cannons ignoring invuln saves...

 

There is no way FW would release this as an Incinerator-Flamestorm.

 

S5/6, AP3 which ignores both Invulnerable saves *and* Cover saves.

 

Effectively only giving Terminators/AA wearers a chance of living thorugh a hit...

[Polaris]

Considering the incinerator ignores invulnerable saves its not to hard to believe.

[Polaris]

Double post :o

[Gentlemanloser]

It's not that. It's the marriage of an Incinerator to an AP3 Template weapon.

 

You get something that ignores the To Hit roll, and offers no save to anyone not wearing TDA/AA. Don't you think that's a little too much?

 

Mostly no Armour Saves, and no Invulnerable or Cover Save.

 

It's like having a Ranged C'Tan blade...

 

Edit: Delviered on a 14/14/14 armoured vehicle, with PotMS.

[Baragash]

It's not that. It's the marriage of an Incinerator to an AP3 Template weapon.

 

You get something that ignores the To Hit roll, and offers no save to anyone not wearing TDA/AA. Don't you think that's a little too much?

 

Mostly no Armour Saves, and no Invulnerable or Cover Save.

 

It's like having a Ranged C'Tan blade...

 

Edit: Delviered on a 14/14/14 armoured vehicle, with PotMS.

 

In a pure GK force, I wouldn't be that bothered going up against it. Whether it becomes unbalancing with GK forces that have allies brought in to up the number of models the DH player is fielding is a different issue.

[AdeptusTerminautus]

seeing as the upgrade from a flamer to a incinerator is only 5 points in the DH codex i love the idea of the incinerator cannon. Probably gonna be 300 pts with the twin linked pyscannons. I will definately think of getting into a pure GK force if we get this.

[Daedalus Templarius]

I'm fielding 2 twin linked psycannons on my godhammer and redeemer already with point values out of imperial armor, its quite cheap for a 36" s5 weapon, only +10pts.

 

I'd be glad to pay for the upgrade for the flamestorms to be incinerators, i mean, thats what they are called on forgeworld after all. Although in our game tonite my redeemer was immobilized on turn 1, so I didn't even get to try it out :lol:

[Daedalus Templarius]

I should be getting my GK redeemer here in the next couple of days, I'll post some pics after I get it constructed.

[Prathios]

It's not that. It's the marriage of an Incinerator to an AP3 Template weapon.

 

You get something that ignores the To Hit roll, and offers no save to anyone not wearing TDA/AA. Don't you think that's a little too much?

 

Mostly no Armour Saves, and no Invulnerable or Cover Save.

 

It's like having a Ranged C'Tan blade...

 

Edit: Delviered on a 14/14/14 armoured vehicle, with PotMS.

 

Try explaining why its not to a player if that ended up being the case. "The Emperor decided that this is the only flame weapon you get that isn't an incinerator, he decided it just made you too good at killing daemons." It wouldn't make sense for it not to be an incinerator.

[Daedalus Templarius]

It's not that. It's the marriage of an Incinerator to an AP3 Template weapon.

 

You get something that ignores the To Hit roll, and offers no save to anyone not wearing TDA/AA. Don't you think that's a little too much?

 

Mostly no Armour Saves, and no Invulnerable or Cover Save.

 

It's like having a Ranged C'Tan blade...

 

Edit: Delviered on a 14/14/14 armoured vehicle, with PotMS.

 

Try explaining why its not to a player if that ended up being the case. "The Emperor decided that this is the only flame weapon you get that isn't an incinerator, he decided it just made you too good at killing daemons." It wouldn't make sense for it not to be an incinerator.

 

I charged myself 10 more points for it (incinerator upgrade), that at least evens it up with taking a twin-linked psycannon (from IA update). Although really, with the people I play with it isn't really much of an issue at all, since nobody plays daemons or anything else that relies totally on invuln saves.

 

Besides, this makes up for the IA update taking the melta away from the crusader... I just noticed it isn't in the wargear and isn't an option. That is a bit annoying.

[Gentlemanloser]

Try explaining why its not to a player if that ended up being the case. "The Emperor decided that this is the only flame weapon you get that isn't an incinerator, he decided it just made you too good at killing daemons." It wouldn't make sense for it not to be an incinerator.

 

Game Balance > Fluff.

[Prathios]

Try explaining why its not to a player if that ended up being the case. "The Emperor decided that this is the only flame weapon you get that isn't an incinerator, he decided it just made you too good at killing daemons." It wouldn't make sense for it not to be an incinerator.

 

Game Balance > Fluff.

 

I said nothing about fluff. I'm talking strictly codex conformity. Every flame weapon they have is an incinerator. Dreads have em, termies have em, squads have em. Logic > whining

 

Edit: I decided to elaborate. Who does the Invulnerable save ignoring hurt? How many daemons have an armor value of 3? Bloodthirsters? Bloodcrushers? How many of each of those can you hit with a template? A Psycannon would be better in this situation. Independent characters with a iron halo or equivalent? My point is that the weapon without the incinerator upgrade already kills almost everything in a meq list anyway. Taking the invulnerable save away does not effect many units at all. And the units it does work on would be better hit with a multi-shot psycannon. I see no issues. No reason to cry OP before its even a reality.

[Daedalus Templarius]

Rules are supposed to be in Vraks III, so rumors I've seen have said. We'll have to wait and see, and hopefully they will give our crusader back its melta... not really sure why they removed that in the first place.

[jeffersonian000]

The loss of the Multi-Melta and the overall increase in effective cost is the main reason I do not use the IA2 Update. Yes, it's cool to not have to pay for Smoke Launchers and Search lights, but 15pts for Extra Armour (which we lose on our Crusaders along with the MM and our special Hurricane Bolter rule) frankly sucks. The increase in carrying capacity has a negligiable effect due to our squads rarely being fielded at max + an IC or two, something Space Marines benefit from than our guys really do not.

 

And while I'm looking forward to trying out a couple of GK Redeemers, I've been playing Marine Redeemers and I'm not finding them to be all that useful. Different, and sometimes really fun, but definitely not as tactically flexible as GK Godhammers or even the GK Crusader.

 

SJ

[Daedalus Templarius]

The loss of the Multi-Melta and the overall increase in effective cost is the main reason I do not use the IA2 Update. Yes, it's cool to not have to pay for Smoke Launchers and Search lights, but 15pts for Extra Armour (which we lose on our Crusaders along with the MM and our special Hurricane Bolter rule) frankly sucks. The increase in carrying capacity has a negligiable effect due to our squads rarely being fielded at max + an IC or two, something Space Marines benefit from than our guys really do not.

 

And while I'm looking forward to trying out a couple of GK Redeemers, I've been playing Marine Redeemers and I'm not finding them to be all that useful. Different, and sometimes really fun, but definitely not as tactically flexible as GK Godhammers or even the GK Crusader.

 

SJ

 

All very true. Its unfortunate twin-linked psycannons were not permitted when the codex was written ;) those things made a ton of points back for me the last game I played.

 

The redeemer looks way too cool to pass up, even if I have to trade some flexibility for it.

 

You don't necessarily lose the hurricane bolter rule, I don't think it is re-stated in the entry in IA, so wouldn't you just default to what was in your codex? I'd rather not cherry-pick... maybe we wouldn't have to if they made us a new damn codex.

[jeffersonian000]

Hurrican Bolter are defensive weapons that fire as defensive weapons; without the special rule in the IA2 Upgrade data entry, then there is no special rule when using those rules. Or put simply, you either use the codex for all vehicles or you use the IA2 Update for all vehicles, not both.

 

SJ

[Gentlemanloser]

I said nothing about fluff. I'm talking strictly codex conformity. Every flame weapon they have is an incinerator. Dreads have em, termies have em, squads have em. Logic > whining

 

"The Emperor decided that this is the only flame weapon you get that isn't an incinerator, he decided it just made you too good at killing daemons."

 

Is just a fluff reason.

 

The Logically, game balance reason would be that a weapon that ignores every single type of save in the game, bar a 2+ Armour save, is a tad too powerful. Don't you think?

 

That it also has a generous Strength and ignores the To-Hit roll entirely would make it one of the most 'Awesome Weapons' in the game. Period.

 

Couple that with a delivery system that has the Best AV in the game and PotMS to let you fire one after moving 12", and you've got something so Uber it will dominate every GK list.

 

Edit: I decided to elaborate. Who does the Invulnerable save ignoring hurt? How many daemons have an armor value of 3? Bloodthirsters? Bloodcrushers? How many of each of those can you hit with a template? A Psycannon would be better in this situation. Independent characters with a iron halo or equivalent? My point is that the weapon without the incinerator upgrade already kills almost everything in a meq list anyway. Taking the invulnerable save away does not effect many units at all. And the units it does work on would be better hit with a multi-shot psycannon. I see no issues. No reason to cry OP before its even a reality.

 

It's not just an anti Dameon Weapon. It's an anti everything bar Terminator weapon. Eldar, Guard, Chaos, Marines. Nothing can stand versus it that doesn't have a lot of 2+ Armour.

 

What you miss is those above can also ustilise Cover (which is everywhere in 5th ) to get saves versus Psycannons, and Incincerators don't ignore Power Armour. and there is now a Weatlh of Invulnerable Saves to help you live thorugh normal Incinerators. From Storm Shields to Legion of the Damned.

 

The coupling of both is too much. Far too much.

 

I sincerly hope if it gets ingores Invulnerable saves, that they drop the AP3 from it.

 

Edit: Gaff. ;) That "and there is now a Weatlh of Invulnerable Saves to help you live thorugh normal Incinerators" Should be Flamestorms. ;)

[Prathios]

Is just a fluff reason.

 

The Logically, game balance reason would be that a weapon that ignores every single type of save in the game, bar a 2+ Armour save, is a tad too powerful. Don't you think?

 

That it also has a generous Strength and ignores the To-Hit roll entirely would make it one of the most 'Awesome Weapons' in the game. Period.

 

Couple that with a delivery system that has the Best AV in the game and PotMS to let you fire one after moving 12", and you've got something so Uber it will dominate every GK list.

 

Edit: I decided to elaborate. Who does the Invulnerable save ignoring hurt? How many daemons have an armor value of 3? Bloodthirsters? Bloodcrushers? How many of each of those can you hit with a template? A Psycannon would be better in this situation. Independent characters with a iron halo or equivalent? My point is that the weapon without the incinerator upgrade already kills almost everything in a meq list anyway. Taking the invulnerable save away does not effect many units at all. And the units it does work on would be better hit with a multi-shot psycannon. I see no issues. No reason to cry OP before its even a reality.

 

It's not just an anti Dameon Weapon. It's an anti everything bar Terminator weapon. Eldar, Guard, Chaos, Marines. Nothing can stand versus it that doesn't have a lot of 2+ Armour.

 

What you miss is those above can also ustilise Cover (which is everywhere in 5th ) to get saves versus Psycannons, and Incincerators don't ignore Power Armour. and there is now a Weatlh of Invulnerable Saves to help you live thorugh normal Incinerators. From Storm Shields to Legion of the Damned.

 

The coupling of both is too much. Far too much.

 

I sincerly hope if it gets ingores Invulnerable saves, that they drop the AP3 from it.

 

Edit: Gaff. :) That "and there is now a Weatlh of Invulnerable Saves to help you live thorugh normal Incinerators" Should be Flamestorms. :P

 

Aside from IC's and Daemons what meq units have invulnerable saves because I gotta admit, I'm at a loss to come up with em. I think you overate how much difference there is between flamestorms and Incinerators. And even then, I would imagine we would pay a little bit more for them anyway.

[Gentlemanloser]

Legion of the Damned, Any SS using Marine, Thousand Sons, Any Unit in a SM Force Dome, Eldar Farseers (if they're not GEQ), I'm sure there are Orks as well. Dark Eldar, Death Cult Assasins, New combat Shields, Black Templars with the 6+ Invulnerable Vow.

 

I'm sure i've missed loads and loads.

 

The point isn't what besides ICs or Daemons get effected by an Invulnerable Save ignoring Weapon (that's never been the point).

 

The point is adding Ignore Invulerables Saves, on top of Ignore Cover Saves *and* Ignore just aobut every Armour Save in the game.

 

That's the point.

 

That other wepaons ignore one or other (or in the Incinerator/Flamestorms case both), there are other saves to fall back on when facing these weapons.

 

An Incinerator/Flamestorm weapon would bypass too much, with the only repsite being have a TDA equivalent Armour Save.