Grey knights redeemer question

[Prathios]

Legion of the Damned, Any SS using Marine, Thousand Sons, Any Unit in a SM Force Dome, Eldar Farseers (if they're not GEQ), I'm sure there are Orks as well. Dark Eldar, Death Cult Assasins, New combat Shields, Black Templars with the 6+ Invulnerable Vow.

 

I'm sure i've missed loads and loads.

 

The point isn't what besides ICs or Daemons get effected by an Invulnerable Save ignoring Weapon (that's never been the point).

 

The point is adding Ignore Invulerables Saves, on top of Ignore Cover Saves *and* Ignore just aobut every Armour Save in the game.

 

That's the point.

 

That other wepaons ignore one or other (or in the Incinerator/Flamestorms case both), there are other saves to fall back on when facing these weapons.

 

An Incinerator/Flamestorm weapon would bypass too much, with the only repsite being have a TDA equivalent Armour Save.

 

 

I actually think you make my case for me, there simply arn't enough things to matter. Half of the things in that list are rare or unused. How many squads of marines all have storm shields... No Black Templars take that vow (its terrible), so this is a wash.

 

You havn't missed loads and loads.

 

Its not OP, it requires you to get within a flame templates range of the unit you wish to hit and then they can spread their formation out ot minimize casualties. The point as you put it is Armor Value 2. Its what separates the men from the boys, and the men get to take a save against these monsters. If you think somehow getting an invulnerable save makes you feel safer then by all means trust in that to save you from a flamestorm, but honestly I don't see the logic in your argument.

[Gentlemanloser]

it requires you to get within a flame templates range of the unit you wish to hit and then they can spread their formation out ot minimize casualties.

 

Like Tank Shocking into a nice group on a 12" moving Tank?

 

But I've nothing else to add here. There is nothing to pursaude me that a S6 Weapon with no To Hit roll that ignores every save in the game bar TDA is balanced.

 

I'm just a little saddened that no one else feels the same.

[Daedalus Templarius]

It would be terrifying to infantry, and maybe that would help GKs, since we certainly haven't gotten anything new lately. Not like it would do anything to armor though.

 

The ap3 is going to chew through everyone I fight against already, it doesn't really matter if they get invuln saves at this point or not. But, we'll have to see if they are actually incinerators in the next IA.

[Leonatus]

what does this Flamestorm Incinerator really give you, that the normal Incinerator or a basic Flamestorm Cannon don't?

 

It kills Warlocks on Jetbikes, Thousand Sons, non-Terminator Space Marines with Stormshields, Bloodthirsters, Bloodcrushers, Demonprinces, the Eldar Avatar, Eldar Autarchs, perhaps Necron Lords and that's pretty much it.

 

While this looks like a long list, the actual armies in the game, that are really affected are quite few. Orcs, Guard, Tyranids and Tau would probably just yawn. Space Marines and Demons aren't that punished as the models that really suffer from the weapon are usually single models with plenty of wounds or fairly rare choices.

 

That leaves Chaos Thousand Sons and Eldar Warlocks on Bikes.

 

Both units are already extremely good, so I don't mind seeing something that destroys them efficiently. It might help make them less of a no-brainer. Thouand Sons could just enter a Rhino and leave the mighty Flamestorm Incinerator hanging in the wind.

[Prathios]

what does this Flamestorm Incinerator really give you, that the normal Incinerator or a basic Flamestorm Cannon don't?

 

It kills Warlocks on Jetbikes, Thousand Sons, non-Terminator Space Marines with Stormshields, Bloodthirsters, Bloodcrushers, Demonprinces, the Eldar Avatar, Eldar Autarchs, perhaps Necron Lords and that's pretty much it.

 

While this looks like a long list, the actual armies in the game, that are really affected are quite few. Orcs, Guard, Tyranids and Tau would probably just yawn. Space Marines and Demons aren't that punished as the models that really suffer from the weapon are usually single models with plenty of wounds or fairly rare choices.

 

That leaves Chaos Thousand Sons and Eldar Warlocks on Bikes.

 

Both units are already extremely good, so I don't mind seeing something that destroys them efficiently. It might help make them less of a no-brainer. Thouand Sons could just enter a Rhino and leave the mighty Flamestorm Incinerator hanging in the wind.

 

Which was of course my whole point. Thank you for summing it up. Although of a funny note the flamestorm can pop a rhino, heheh.

[Daedalus Templarius]

Now if you could just take a GK LR redeemer as a transport upgrade to your GKT, then I wouldn't have force org nightmares allying them with SM.

[ripath]

Legion of the Damned, Any SS using Marine, Thousand Sons, Any Unit in a SM Force Dome, Eldar Farseers (if they're not GEQ), I'm sure there are Orks as well. Dark Eldar, Death Cult Assasins, New combat Shields, Black Templars with the 6+ Invulnerable Vow.

 

I'm sure i've missed loads and loads.

 

The point isn't what besides ICs or Daemons get effected by an Invulnerable Save ignoring Weapon (that's never been the point).

 

The point is adding Ignore Invulerables Saves, on top of Ignore Cover Saves *and* Ignore just aobut every Armour Save in the game.

 

That's the point.

 

That other wepaons ignore one or other (or in the Incinerator/Flamestorms case both), there are other saves to fall back on when facing these weapons.

 

An Incinerator/Flamestorm weapon would bypass too much, with the only repsite being have a TDA equivalent Armour Save.

 

For any other army I would agree with you completely. But seeing as grey knights lose quite a bit when compared to their C:SM bretheran its not that much of game breaking unit. Also it doesn't even touch the huge anti armor gap that DH suffer from most of the time. And finally it's forge world your opponent has to agree to play against it, so calm down its nowhere near tournament legal everywhere.

tl:dr how does flame thrower tank kill the nine medusas across the board?

[Daedalus Templarius]

tl:dr how does flame thrower tank kill the nine medusas across the board?

 

That's when you say: DOH!

[Chengar Qordath]

The short range of flamestorm cannons has always been their biggest weakness. If your Raider is in template range, the enemy is going to be melta range.

[Gentlemanloser]

While I'm not adding anything new here, I feel the need to address this, as it's in essence what I feel everyone is missing.

 

what does this Flamestorm Incinerator really give you, that the normal Incinerator or a basic Flamestorm Cannon don't?

 

It kills Warlocks on Jetbikes, Thousand Sons, non-Terminator Space Marines with Stormshields, Bloodthirsters, Bloodcrushers, Demonprinces, the Eldar Avatar, Eldar Autarchs, perhaps Necron Lords and that's pretty much it.

 

It's not so much what the combi Flamestorm-Incinerator would give you over either weapon.

 

It's that it gives you this *in addition* to killing everything else a normal Flamestorm or Incincerator would.

 

It will kill normal Marines, Pathfinders, Guard, Orks, etc, etc, just as well. With no save.

[Brother Tuditanus]

I love the massive arguments over a FW unit with FW rules being overpowered...

 

Ummmm.. It's.. FW.... Have you read their Greater Daemon rules lately?!

 

All in all, it's not that bad.. IT's short ranged. Deal with it like any other land raider. The GK have a hard enough time. Let the stiff necked puritus boys have something shiny.

[Prathios]

While I'm not adding anything new here, I feel the need to address this, as it's in essence what I feel everyone is missing.

 

what does this Flamestorm Incinerator really give you, that the normal Incinerator or a basic Flamestorm Cannon don't?

 

It kills Warlocks on Jetbikes, Thousand Sons, non-Terminator Space Marines with Stormshields, Bloodthirsters, Bloodcrushers, Demonprinces, the Eldar Avatar, Eldar Autarchs, perhaps Necron Lords and that's pretty much it.

 

It's not so much what the combi Flamestorm-Incinerator would give you over either weapon.

 

It's that it gives you this *in addition* to killing everything else a normal Flamestorm or Incincerator would.

 

It will kill normal Marines, Pathfinders, Guard, Orks, etc, etc, just as well. With no save.

 

But that's just it, that's the crux of the argument. We don't care that its in addition because it affects so little. And again like the previous guy said, its forge-world. Hell, even if I was to agree that your argument is totally correct I would still not care cause the DH need so much help.

[jeffersonian000]

The only changes I see from a base Redeemer to the GK Redeemer is that our crappy Assault cannon will gain 12" in range and ignore invul saves, while our Incinerator drops its AP from 4 to 3. Very minor changes that of course will cost us greatly down the road by giving us crappier Godhammers and Crusaders that will cost us more just to field. Will it be worth it? Maybe, maybe not. Is it something to worry about? Not really; Redeemer are easier to kill than Godhammers, and not as useful overall as a Crusader fulling roughly the same role.

 

SJ

[Adeptus Templar]

If you dont mind me asking, what is the load-out on a GK Godhammer? And i would find their rules in the IA2 book correct? I kinda want to get a GK LR Redeemer but from reading through this thread it doesn't seem too effective unless you tank shock the enemy.

[jeffersonian000]

A Godhammer is a standard Land Raider (sponson twin-linked lascannons and hull-mounted twin-linked heavy bolters). The term comes from the sponsons having "Godhammer" pattern lascannons, and has been used to differentiate the standard Land Raider from the Land Raider Crusader since the Crusader was first released, which predates the use of Phobos as a pattern for the standard MkIII Land Raider. It's about the same as call a Predator an Annihilator or a Baal.

 

SJ

[Adeptus Templar]

ah ok, got it

[- 7eAL -]

Frankly I agree with Gentlemanloser.

The only thing that can save against Flamestorm Incinerator is a Terminator. No cover, no armour, no invulnerables. A Redeemer can also mount a multi-melta, so it can take down heavier armour such as an enemy Land Raider in a pinch. The only thing its melta can't destroy is a Monolith. While the Avatar resists all flame and melta based weapons, but can easily be taken down with the Redeemer's assault cannons or psycannons. That makes only two units in the whole game that can't be instant-killed by a Redeemer.

 

On top of that, the Redeemer can deliver a load of Terminators to mop up anything it misses, to thunderhammer a Monolith into sheet metal, and gut Terminators with force weapons.

 

The only reason a Godhammer is harder to destroy is because it can afford to turtle, and because a Godhammer still doesn't know whether it's a transport or a tank. When it's not ferrying troops, it ducks into cover pretending to be a tank hunter and doesn't get a whole lot done. It can turn the game around once or twice, but unlike a Redeemer it presses no advantage - it doesn't tank shock into a unit and release AP3-no cover-no invul fire every turn, and doesn't screen the Terminators stomping on the enemy line, and even when it's destroyed it doesn't sit in a nice convenient LOS-blocking spot for Terminators to take cover in the middle of the enemy line.

 

Given the option, I would never take anything but Redeemers.

 

 

It doesn't take two brain cells, even single-celled organisms can figure it out.

And this when the game is supposed to be moving away from no-brainers, and when players are supposed to be fighting more intelligently.

Has nobody any pride? If one wants easy wins, go play Space Marines.

[Prathios]

You're right it isn't rocket science. It has to get within 8 inches to be even remotely effective for what will likely be around 300 points. 8 inches. Its just like an LRC that can't engage effectively until its right on top of the enemy. Its amazing against single wound models when it gets there but... If you really did start taking nothing but redeemers because they're OP take that to a tourny and test your theory. Its just like a hardened vindicator, it will be a bullet magnet and draw fire form everything. Making even less likely to reach the enemy line than an LRC.

 

I think its funny though that yet again you're making the case for a unit you can't even field without asking is OP... :)

[SamaNagol]

I care more about using the Flamestorm Incinerator against Ork Nobs than Demons. Oh lordy that would be lovely.

[Gentlemanloser]

I think its funny though that yet again you're making the case for a unit you can't even field without asking is OP...

 

Becuase it's generally easier and there's less resistence to using a printed Forge World model than say getting an opponent to agree to a home made LR Varient or even the SM Reedemer.

 

Becuase, even though you still have to ask, it's an 'offical' unit, and your opponent would have to be a 'bad sportsman' to say no.

 

Unless everyone realsies it's "Hell No! That's OP and you shouldn't even ask you cheese monger, let me hit you with that IA Book!", in which case I feel my view stands...

 

Edit: There's a thread about Tanks in the Daemon Sub Forum, and the LR crops up. One of thier banes is using LR to Tank Shock off of objectives, so I really think the Template Range of the GK LRR isn't going to be such a downside.

[jeffersonian000]

I've been testing Redeemers with GK's for a while now; I'm just not that impressed. Yes, they look awesome on paper, yet they have to get within melta range of a unit in order to be useful. And while it seems like the only one here with this opinion, but our guys are not assault oriented. In point of fact, unless they are charging into a pack of daemon loaded for anti-daemon work, our guys kind of suck at close combat due to their high price more than anything else. If I had the points to field a GKGM w/ SS and a 5 GKT retinue, put them into a Redeemer and actually got them into CC with another enemy unit without the Redeemer getting popped while only halfway across the board, it would only work once. After that, no opponent would ever allow me to do that again, ever. I know this because I've done it. They see Firestorms, and they will go out of their way to pop it. Now, this could be good for me, as this draws enough firepower away from my units so that ... wait, I have no other units because I've spent way too much on my GM's pimped out ride and hench-folk.

 

All I'm saying is I've found that Godhammers promote a higher survivability for a GK army than Redeemers do, because Redeemers force you to rush into close combat versus cheaper close combat units with more attacks. Remember, a 4+ save is the same thing as being hit 50% of the time. Being out of range is the same thing as getting hit 0% of the time. When every Tom, Dick, and Jayne can have a power fist or the melta bomb, it pays to stay out of close combat, even for an AV14 vehicle in an infantry light army.

 

SJ

 

*edit for spelling.

[Justicar Valius]

I think it would be darn right razy to think this could be happening (just imagine the look on the faces of my necron buddies :huh: )

 

But it wouldn't fit with my style well... whatever I would still stick one in because it would be awseomely overpowered.

[Daedalus Templarius]

I got my GK redeemer kit from forgeworld (other than the Psycannon targeter they forget to send :) ), I'll post some pics of it when I get it assembled.

 

I am anxious to actually field it in a battle.

[SamaNagol]

Redeemers go completely against the playstyle of GK. I really wouldn't want to be within flamer template range of many units. I'm much happier with my 6 twin linked bolter shots. And when they rapid fire within 12" it is a thing of beauty.

[Gentlemanloser]

And when they rapid fire within 12" it is a thing of beauty.

 

Not to be pedantic, but that's not far off Template Range...