The absolute best scouts for outflanking in a LSS?

[Sonic Para]

Alright, here is the deal. I'm gearing up for the release of the GW LSS model by revamping my 1500 point list and a definite priority is in taking more troop choices. In the recent past (as I've only been playing since April) I have relied on units like Assault Marines and just Close Combat overall to win my games while my troops simply just camp objectives. This strategy worked fine and dandy until recently when a load of deep striking Swooping Hawks chipped away some Jump Infantry with their Haywire Grenades and then landed and wasted my Scout Snipers (one of two troop choices) in one turn with a volley of fire. I still pulled out the win thanks to a LR:R, TH/SS Termie, and Jump Marine rush on his objective and my Combat Squad popping out of my Razorback to claim an objective but it was far too close for my liking.

 

So! I'm trying to figure out a way to fit more troops into my list while still keeping my force relatively fast. My current plan is to drop the Scout Snipers as well as other things (like the TH/SS termies) and use the points to take two LSS's, each carrying a separate five-man Scout squad. I have decided on the Heavy Flamer upgrades for both LSS's both to flush out enemies in cover (whom the scouts will be shooting at/assaulting) and to bypass the BS3 of the speeder. I also am almost exclusively going to Outflank them as the potential to deep strike around 140 or so points of Speeder and Troops out in the open with AV10/4+ save is a bit too high for me.

 

So here is where I run in to so much trouble, picking the loadout for my 5 man Scout squads. Let me start by saying that Scout Snipers are totally out. If the LSS moves, the Scouts count as moving which renders their rifles useless. So it is Bolters, Bolt Pistols/Combat Blades, or Shotguns. My most troublesome enemy throughout my young 40K career has been Eldar with Pathfinders and Dire Avengers(usually supported by a Farseer AND an Avatar). I'm focusing on the troops because they are High Value Targets in 2/3rds of all basic 40K games played. Also, I'm going to ignore the Pathfinders when choosing which Scouts to use because whatever works best against the Dire Avengers will totally mop the floor with 5+ armor save Pathfinders. I'm also going to ignore the Farseer and the Avatar because if my frequent opponent still chooses to group them with the Dire Avengers, I will simply hit the Pathfinders instead.

 

Alright, I've been running through various Scout loadouts and I've arrived at several decent ones. Firstly would be 4 scouts with Shotguns and the Sergeant with dual Power Weapons. Against a 10 man...er...space elf Dire Avenger squad, averages say 1 will be killed by the Shotguns and another by the Sergeant's dual Power Weapons while a single Scout will typically fall to the Avengers in the Assault Phase. This is all without the LSS's Heavy Flamer which will typically kill almost all of the Avengers it hits due to the 2+ wound roll and the AP4. If the flamer is added in, the chances of losing the Average 1 Scout drop significantly. I feel that against a non-horde army, this setup is the best. I also feel that the dual power weapons are needed on the Sergeant as the ability to negate armor saves can easily sway a combat drastically in your favor if the rolls are above average. Also, the -2 Leadership effect that the LSS gives to the enemy is great when figuring fall-backs and sweeping advances, but you need the Power Weapons to win the combat.

 

The second and nearly identical in effect choice is that of 4 Scouts with Bolt Pistols/Combat Blades and of course the dual Power Weapon Sergeant. With only 4 shots coming from the squad, its 50/50 that they will kill a single Avengers with the shooting. Shotguns obviously fare better here. In an Assault though, the Scouts should lose 1-2 men and the Avengers should lose about the same on average. So the same number of Avengers should be gone after all is said and done, but the BP/CB loadout allows greater opportunity for the Avengers to pick off the Scouts with their I5. The way I see it, the Shotguns are better here because you are still getting around the same number of attacks.

 

Shotgun Scouts: 8 shots, 3 attacks (1 usually dies from Avengers I5), 3 power weapon attacks = 14 potential S4 hits, hitting/wounding on 4+/3+

BP/CB Scouts: 4 shots, 4-6 attacks (1-2 usually die from Avengers I5) 3 power weapon attacks = 11-13 potential S4 hits, hitting/wounding on 4+/3+

 

Placing more of your potential hits in the Assault Phase against a high Initiative enemy like Dire Avengers actually reduces the amount of potential hits that the squad can dish out. For this reason, I see Shotguns as being superior to the BP/CB setup. The only thing that the BP does better then the shotgun is negate 5+ armor saves, but then wouldn't Bolters do the job even better?

 

Having a Scout squad full of Bolters doesn't allow an Assault when doing rapid-fire but will usually result in 2-3 kills on T3/4, save 5+/6+ models such as Eldar Pathfinders an Ork Boyz (another frequent opponent) and when combined with the effects of the LSS's Heavy Flamer, can easily decimate a squad beyond the point of being a danger.

 

 

So, as long as all of my averages and loadouts are correct, wouldn't it be safe to say that Shotgun Scouts are the best LSS choices against 4+ armor save troops and Bolter Scouts are the best against 5+ armor save troops? I post so much just to give an example of my thought process in all of this and I would really appreciate if a more experienced Scout user could offer some insight and perhaps critique my suggested loadout options. Just please keep in mind that I'm using the LSS's and the Scouts as up-close, objective wrenching units, purpose built for targeting enemy troops (mostly on objectives) and routing them. So no Heavy Weapons, but I am contemplating dropping one of the Sergeant's Power Weapons to take Camo Cloaks for the squad, improving their survivability after taking an objective or losing their LSS. If I did this, could I give the Sergeant a Shotgun and a Power Weapon allowing for 2 shots and then the base 2 attacks with the Power Weapon?

[Paulochromis]

read greatcrusade08's scout army tactica

[Bannus]

Easy: All shotguns and a Sergeant w/combi-flamer.

 

The shotguns allow the Scouts to perform effective drive-bys (the Speeder is open-topped, remember?) and yet be able to lay down some suppressing fire before assaulting. The Sergeant's flamer can help root out those dug-in opponents. if you have the points to spare, a power fist for the Serge wouldn't hurt either.

[Ryjak]

First, read the 10th Company Scout Tactica

 

Second, you don't have to buy two power weapons to get +1 attacks in HtH; a power weapon and bolt pistol will do just fine. Or, you could get a powerfist and a shotgun, or perhaps a powerfist and combi-weapon.

 

Third, in general, shotguns hit harder during the initial assault than bolt pistols, especially because you're probably going to be hitting something in cover. So my vote is to go with the shotguns.

 

One last thing... remember the Cerebus Launchers stack, so plan to hit one unit with two Heavy Flamers, 16-20 shotgun blasts, 22 Str4 attacks in HtH, win combat, and inflict an additional -4 to their leadership test with the Cerebus Launchers. Next turn, get back on the LSS, run away 24".... then attack again.

[waaanial00]

One last thing... remember the Cerebus Launchers stack, so plan to hit one unit with two Heavy Flamers, 16-20 shotgun blasts, 22 Str4 attacks in HtH, win combat, and inflict an additional -4 to their leadership test with the Cerebus Launchers. Next turn, get back on the LSS, run away 24".... then attack again.

 

Great advice however I think you are being a little too optimistic about their chances of running away. I have run this type of squad in the last 5 games and when they get out of their storm their is either:

 

No Storm to get back in

or

No Squad to get back in

 

This unit is a great unit however its survival chances are minimal, that doesnt mean that you shouldnt take it, it means that you should not count on it surviving intact to go for round two.

 

Wan

[Sonic Para]

Alright, so I'm correct in thinking that Bolt Pistols/Combat Blades for the whole unit is useless? Shotguns are the general consensus so I'll go with those but I'm still undecided about the Sergeant. I'm taking that second Power Weapon off for sure (thought that Power Weapons had the same rules as Power Fists and Lightning Claws for effect during combat) but I'm not certain if I want to replace it with the Combi-Flamer or the Shotgun. The Combi-Flamer is certainly more effective then the Shotgun for the one turn that you fire the flamer but after that, the Bolter becomes a hindrance to the squad. If the Scouts survive and need to go engage other units, the Shotgun is going to ultimately do more damage since the Bolter cannot be fired if I wish to assault with the unit (IIRC).

 

While not a good choice for the whole unit, perhaps the Sergeant would benefit from the Bolt Pistol? Sure you don't get the one-turn flamer but you still have the Sergeant dealing 5 total S4 hits on the charge. The shotgun gives you 5 S4 hits as well but only 3 of them benefit from the Power Weapon while with the Bolt Pistol, 4 of them do.

 

Combi-Flamer: (one-time use flamer) 1-2 Bolter shots (disallows assault for whole unit IIRC) or 3 Power Sword attacks per turn

Shotgun: 2 Shotgun shots and 3 Power Sword attacks per turn

Bolt Pistol: 1 Bolt Pistol shot and 4 Power Sword attacks per turn

 

I read GC08's Scout FAQ and I know that he recommends using a combi-weapon to complement the LSS's weapon but is the one flamer template really worth losing out on 2 S4 shots or 1 S4 shot and 1 S4 Power Weapon hit per turn for the remainder of the game?

 

And what of Camo Cloaks for sitting on an objective after taking it? 2+ cover save if gone to ground in typical urban cover (which frequents our board) is mighty nice. LSS can even try and hide behind a nearby piece of cover (that is tall enough of course) to protect the scouts. This is not always a reality but the bit about the cover typically is. My frequent opponents prefer to place objectives in ruin terrain and guard it with units like Pathfinders who end up with a 2+ cover save (hence the flamer on the LSS).

[Scott-S6]

You'll only have a 3+ save in urban terrain with the cloaks - only fortifications are 3+ basic, ruins are 4+.

[Sonic Para]

4+ ruin save, +1 for Camo Cloaks, +1 for going to ground. Of course they can't shoot after that but it definitely increases their survivability. Question is, is it worth giving up 30 points (cloaks for both squads) for something that isn't always going to help?

 

And I'm still undecided on the Sergeant's main weapon.

[greatcrusade08]

Hey guys, its always nice to see that people are referencing my articles ;)

 

I would suggest that if your willing to pay 30 points for camo cloaks, which to be honest arent always needed (ive never used them and have a pretty good win/loss record) then you can afford to take a fist on one or both the scout squads, which means 3 S8 atacks over 4 S4 attacks, also you can then take a combi-weapon or shotgun without losing an attack (since the fist doesnt give +1A)

 

With the shotties over ccw, they are pretty much even, HOWEVER against a higher initiative opponent (eldar) shottiers are a must, you can however take a mix, a 50/50 split of ccw to shotties gives you the best of both worlds, maximising the ratio of both pre assault shots and actual attacks.

 

I also think you should pay some attention to what Wan was saying

This unit is a great unit however its survival chances are minimal, that doesnt mean that you shouldnt take it, it means that you should not count on it surviving intact to go for round two.

 

I always treat scouts as expendable, this is a little harder for me to say ASWELL as saying take a fist, obviously the more expensive they are the less you want them to die!

But in these situations i would treat the unit as a dedicated objective grabber (which is pretty much your direction with the heavy flamers), aslong as they get the job done it doesnt matter if you take a few casulties from shooting or the storms themselves die. Just hunker down (go to ground) and get 3++ saves until the game ends and you win on objectives ;)

As for taking the objective the fist DOES get you towards this objective quicker by wounding on 2's, having two combined with the stacking cerberus launchers should make even eldar run away crying for thier mummies!

 

My own use of LSS is as nuisance units, i generally offer more juicy targets for enemy shooting so the LSS usually last 3 or 4 turns, if they get hit the scouts disembark and keep them busy for another turn.

Basically a 2 turn roadblock ;)

 

Hope this helps

GC08

Edit: forgot to add, as you want the scouts to have one solid turn, and shouldnt expect much more, a combi-weapon is usually the best option, if your scouts do go the distance then they have done well, but you shouldnt plan for them to be alive at the end of the game unless they are hiding on an objective

[Sonic Para]

Ah, so essentially throw as big of a punch you can in their first turn engaging because they probably won't last many more. That philosophy certainly makes the combi-weapon fit better.

 

The power fist is mighty tempting but when looked at against the power weapon, I'm kinda leaning towards the weapon. The power weapon maintains the Sergeant's I4 and (against T3 troops which make up most of my opponents' troop choices) wounds on a 3+. The Fist sacrifices the initiative and eats up another 10 points just to hit on a 2+. For a unit of 5 Scouts, isn't I4 basically required through the whole squad so that they can hit first/same time as most troops?

 

Then again that S8 means I could Instant Death a generic IC that could be mixed in with the troops and that could prove useful. Seems like another dilemma, last one though! I swear!

[greatcrusade08]

If your playing mainly eldar then you make alot of sense, a power weapon wounds on 3+ but you get the extra attack (although the issue of pistol or combi-weapon rears its head again).

the benfits are cheaper squad means you care less when they die!

 

Although I4 is good enough against most, eldar are a pain for always hitting first, the other 4 T4 scouts atre usually shield enough to allow the fist to work, so thats not too much of an issue, especially since the sword will hit after most eldar units aswell..

But this is down to persoanl preference, a good solid hit should get rid of almost anything, against eldar the heavy flamer will kill lots, whihc is why they LSS probably wont last long, still scouts in cover can still cause some headahces, a unit of shotties can unload alot of hurt on T3 pansies.

 

GC08

 

Edit: Scout units set up using the 'meta-game' can be very effective, an all rounder list can be a little more difficult to get right, still heavy flamer and shotties is probably the single best use for an LSS team IMHO!

[Vedrial]

Power Fist gets my vote for several reasons. First, the specific targets your scouts should be going for. A unit like Obliterators is one of the juiciest targets for a LSS Scout Sqaud. The Fist/combi-flamer is great for this. On a unit of 2 Oblits, flamer+4 shotguns means means that you on, on averege, going to inflict 3 wounds shooting before the assault. 2+ save means there's a decent chance you'll land one wound on them. On the charge, you're going to get 2 wounds before they get to swing. If you're lucky, you'll do another wound. If you're extremely lucky, you'll kill one Oblit. At initiative 1, the Oblits will kill 2 Scouts. Then your Sarge will instant death 1 of them, if you're lucky, 2. A tie in combat here is a victory for you. Denying the Oblits a turn of shooting is all these guys had to do to allow the rest of your army to get into position and move up the table.

 

This is without taking into account the LSS's weapon. I plan on rolling with a multi-melta so I can target enemies like Oblits more effectively. A multi-melta has a great chance of instant killing an Oblit.

 

This is where I plan on using my LSS Scout Sqaud. Attacking exposed high point cost, low model count units. Carnifex's, Oblits, Independent Characters, etc.

 

Lastly, I'll say this: Scouts in a Land Speeder Storm are not a killy unit. They're a neat distraction unit that is capable of taking on specific targets, but, more importantly, will draw the attention and fire of your opponent, giving the rest of your army a much easier first turn.

 

Alternatively, they make a great outflanking objective taker who can contest or control any objective within 24" of a table edge (which is just about any of them).

[rusty1109]

My plan is to have a scout squad assaulting from a storm into the same unit and at the same time as my HQ unit. The cereberus launcher and all those extra attacks, followed by my heavy hitter (MOTF joined with 3 man bike squad or maybe 5 man assault squad) will break most things hopefully!

[greatcrusade08]

Vedrial makes alot of sense, but i cannot agree completely with one of his points.

 

Lastly, I'll say this: Scouts in a Land Speeder Storm are not a killy unit.

 

Every unit favours one battle over another, A LSS squad thrown against howling banshees would be stupid, but can take out pathfinders without breaking much of a sweat.

Ive had a LSS squad kill bloodletters by the score, wip[e out a unt of pathfinders, krrot or a small unit fo firewarriros on their own.. sure they arent as killy as honour guard, but they are cheap and cheerful and have some dirty, dirty tricks!

 

The best way is to practice and figure out for yourself how they are best used, vedrial made a point about the being fire magnets, which may be true for some... for me they always survive two or three turns and i have yet to keep them in reserve/outflank, if they attack alongside a LR, guess which unit takes the firepower???

in context a land speeder storm is just a glass landspeeder, used properly its a pain in your opponents butt.

 

Good luck

Gc08

[DevianID]

I like 4 shottie guys, with a combi melta pfist sarge, in a multimelta storm. 175 is a bit pricy, but they will beat oblits, will beat tanks, and will beat dakka fexes, all on turn 1. You are paying for the speed more than anything else. If you dont need speed, then this unit will not perform for you at all.

 

That said, many opponents will, if you won the roll to go first, put everything in reserve when you have these bad boyz. If they dont, then your storms can take out all their prime targets.

[Sonic Para]

My plan is to have a scout squad assaulting from a storm into the same unit and at the same time as my HQ unit.

 

Holy hell! That is a fantastic idea! I run my Jump Pack, dual Lightning Clawed Chapter Master with my 10 man Assault Squad for the speed. My current 1500 build has my LR:R acting as a mobile shield for them, moving 12" and firing one of the weapons with PotMS. I'm going to be sure to try this, mixed with an outflank move. I only hope I fail my reserves roll for the first time or two. I tend to pass more often then not though. <_<

 

 

That said, many opponents will, if you won the roll to go first, put everything in reserve when you have these bad boyz. If they dont, then your storms can take out all their prime targets.

 

Wouldn't the answer for that be Outflanking then? Some chance at coming in after the opponent is better then none. Although I suppose you could use the empty field as an opportunity to flat-out 24" towards the objective(s) on their side of the table and spoil any deep strikes around said objective.

 

 

You guys are talking me in to the Power Fist. I've decided on the Combi-Flamers for sure because 3/4ths of my frequent enemy armies are Eldar, Tau, and Orks; all of which have some 5+ save troops that would be decimated by the flamer. As for the Fist, I suppose the ability to Instant Death an expensive IC or Obliterator is worth the 10 additional points. Does the Power Fist not gain the bonus attack for charging? If it doesn't, I might be compelled to keep the Power Weapon for the extra attack. Against anyone but Eldar, the Fist will result in more scouts dead but arguably more targets dead.

 

Where do I get the extra 20 points though? Do I drop one or both of the flamers in my Assault Squad? Perhaps I don't need Melta Bombs on my Power Fist Assault Sergeant and maybe I won't need them on the Scout Sergeants since they will have fists? I could drop the Ironclad Assault Launchers off of my Ironclad but the ability to strike at I4 and S10 through cover (Ironclads have "Move Through Cover") is mighty nice.

[greatcrusade08]

Power fists DO get +1A for charging as eveything does, and you definately dont need melta bombs on power fist armed models, they are a waste!

Maybe just putting a fist on one of your LSS???

 

I peronally run an all rounder list with 2 LSS

I combat squad a scout squad between the two to save on FOC:

 

LSS with MM

Combat squad 4 shotgun scouts with sergeant with combi-melta

 

LSS with Heavy flamer

Combat squad 4 shotgun scouts and HB

 

Cheap and cheerful and i couldnt care less if they died, aslong as they take the enemy with them <_<

 

GC08

[Sonic Para]

I thought that you couldn't start a combat squaded(?) Scout squad in two LSS's off the board edge. I think you said earlier that you start your Scouts on table but I'm almost exclusively going to be Outflanking them. I'll cut the Melta Bombs from the two Scout Sergeants and my Assault Sergeant. I could cut them from Tac Marines and just rely on my LR:R's Melta and my Ironclad for popping vehicles. Sounds good?

[greatcrusade08]

Its very complex, which is why i suggest taking two seperate squads, generally i clear it with my opponent before the game if i ever outflank them, but as you pointed out i start with my guys on the table so it doesnt break any rules to use them as such...

 

as for melta bombs i always work by this rule for scouts.

Power fist no meltabombs

power weapon or none.... take melta bombs.

 

Scouts are more capable than tac marines at destroying mech, due to infiltarte, scout move and LSS transport, so if you dont have a fist its probably best to use meltabombs..

 

I think thats about it now, i have imparted most of my experinece already ;)

 

GC08

[Grey Mage]

5 Wolf Scouts, with two plasmapistols, a meltagun, and two powerweapons-120pts.

 

Seriously for codex marines? 4x Shotguns and a seargent with a combiweapon *probly a flamer* and a powerfist.

[Sonic Para]

Alright! Everything is decided! Both squads are full shotguns except for the Sergeants who are Combi-Flamer, Power Fist (just ordered the Cadian Command Squad PF as the Assault Marine one looks a tad bit bulky on the smaller Scout). Dropped all of those excess Melta Bombs to do it.

 

Thanks everyone for all of the help! Now all I need is for July 18th to roll around...

[rusty1109]

Sooooooooo many conversion ideas floating in my head for the storm! I used to work on chinooks so it's good to finally have a 40k model i can use some real world experience on!

[Ryjak]

Alright! Everything is decided! Both squads are full shotguns except for the Sergeants who are Combi-Flamer, Power Fist (just ordered the Cadian Command Squad PF as the Assault Marine one looks a tad bit bulky on the smaller Scout). Dropped all of those excess Melta Bombs to do it.

 

Thanks everyone for all of the help! Now all I need is for July 18th to roll around...

Please let us know how it works out for you. I plan to build two of these units myself (using 'Scout Hammers' to model the powerfists) all painted in a black/grey camo pattern. Maybe rolling with a squadron of 2-3 Landspeeder "Apaches", too. Chinooks rarely fly without combat support.

[Sonic Para]

Goodness that will be a cool thing to see on the table (kinda like my and a friends' Valkyrie/Thunderbolt/Thunderhawk air wing) but it would get quite expensive. You are looking at 250 points in just bare-bones speeders. Add another 200 or so for the Scouts in the LSS's and thats a pricey, fragile bunch. Fluffy as all hell though and extremely fast.

[rusty1109]

Unless it's a medivac sortie and the guy is in a particularly bad state, in which case most chinnie pilots will give it max chat and accelerate to top speed.......... leaving the apaches in their dust as they're actually a lot faster!