Unguis Raptus Posted July 2, 2009 Share Posted July 2, 2009 Why do they have a massive trait system and yet chaos who have thousands of years worth of battle experience can only get 5 icons? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/172484-why-do-sms-have-more-veteran-skills/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hfran Morkai Posted July 2, 2009 Share Posted July 2, 2009 Traits went in the last dex. But I don't know why. Because GW don't give Chaos the love? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/172484-why-do-sms-have-more-veteran-skills/#findComment-2038290 Share on other sites More sharing options...
TostitoBandito Posted July 2, 2009 Share Posted July 2, 2009 Traits went in the last dex. But I don't know why. Because GW don't give Chaos the love? Â Agreed on the fact that the current Codex is the weakest of the three I've played under. I recently got back into the game and was shocked at how vanilla and stripped down the codex was compared to the options available in the previous two editions. Granted there was some bloat in the older codices, but pretty much everything beyond basic wargear was taken out. I think the thing that bothers be the most is the removal of all fluff-based restrictions on fielding units with opposing marks as well as the legion-specific army lists. Generic Daemons and a distinct lack of unique skills/wargear/powers to spend points on hurts too. I mean, I'm still excited to be playing the game again, but it was a big letdown to read the codex. Hopefully they'll do it justice in a new codex sometime next year, or maybe release a cult or legion based codex. SM's still get essentially mini-codices for all their major chapters, right? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/172484-why-do-sms-have-more-veteran-skills/#findComment-2038304 Share on other sites More sharing options...
chillin Posted July 2, 2009 Share Posted July 2, 2009 Because the writer of our current dex (Gav Thorpe) couldn't be bothered to put any work into the dex. Also he has a ...shall we say, limited, rudimentary, and simplistic, understanding of the game IMO. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/172484-why-do-sms-have-more-veteran-skills/#findComment-2038329 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unguis Raptus Posted July 2, 2009 Author Share Posted July 2, 2009 Concerning the traits are there any chapter specific restrictions? Â The only reason I bring this whole thing up is because after my raptors wiped out a mauled squad they were assaulted by an ultramarines tactical squad with furious charge! Â How can they be given this, what justification is there for giving the disciplined soldiers a frenzied melee attack but not my Night Lord killers, thats what they did, they were loyal monsters. Â The guy said it was legal as although they weren't the traits in the book for the ultramarines so long as he follwed the rules for them, which he did, that it was okay. As far as I could see he was right which annoyed me more. Â I lost the match by about 1/10 of an inch. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/172484-why-do-sms-have-more-veteran-skills/#findComment-2038350 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drudge Dreadnought Posted July 2, 2009 Share Posted July 2, 2009 The only way to get any veteran traits in the current marine codex is to take Sicarius, which lets you give 1 tac squad a vet skill. Sounds like your opponent cheated. Â as for chaos, in the previous codex we had veteran skills. Now all our marines come with bolter, bolt pistol, and ccw. We got a :cussty deal. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/172484-why-do-sms-have-more-veteran-skills/#findComment-2038361 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Hadafix Posted July 2, 2009 Share Posted July 2, 2009 If that guy is still playing using the 4ed codex, demand that he allow you to use the 3.5 C:CSM. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/172484-why-do-sms-have-more-veteran-skills/#findComment-2038363 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unguis Raptus Posted July 2, 2009 Author Share Posted July 2, 2009 Still I think we should have something! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/172484-why-do-sms-have-more-veteran-skills/#findComment-2038387 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Amarel Posted July 2, 2009 Share Posted July 2, 2009 Still I think we should have something! Pete Haines back? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/172484-why-do-sms-have-more-veteran-skills/#findComment-2038395 Share on other sites More sharing options...
IronWinds Posted July 2, 2009 Share Posted July 2, 2009 ... with a raise. Oh and some legion rules, and some Lost and the Damned rules would be nice. Oh and dread axes and demonic speed. Â I'll think of more later... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/172484-why-do-sms-have-more-veteran-skills/#findComment-2038415 Share on other sites More sharing options...
TostitoBandito Posted July 3, 2009 Share Posted July 3, 2009 Yeah, my list is: Â Legion-specific rules/lists for at the very least death guard, 1ksons, world eaters, emp. children, black legion, and iron warriors, and possibly one or two other undivided legions. We basically had this in the last Codex (sort of) and it was removed entirely. Â Bring back Daemonic animosity rules for mixing of chaos marks and daemons. Make it harsher than before. Eg. no cult marines of one god if you have a model with the mark of an opposing god, and vice versa. Or make it so no model in your army can have a mark which opposes the mark of any of your HQ choices. Â More customization for champions, independent characters (especially daemon princes), and vehicles. Having the only addons available for a daemon prince be wings, mark, and psychic power (if not khorne) is absurd. Â At least give us entries for non-generic lesser/greater daemons, or let us legally take the ones from the chaos daemons codex in a CSM army, at a modified points cost if necessary. Â Make daemon weapons not suck. For the cost, I don't want something that basically kills my character when I roll a 1, which is by turn 3 or 4 on average. Make them more expensive, reduce the bonus, something, just less of the random suckage. Â Cultists. Â Get rid of, or change, lash of submission. It's broken and stupid, and is the cause of a lot of the dumb ultra-competitive completely non-canon armies I see. Two DP's with lash and a bunch of zerkers and plague marines, yeah that makes sense... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/172484-why-do-sms-have-more-veteran-skills/#findComment-2038467 Share on other sites More sharing options...
chillin Posted July 3, 2009 Share Posted July 3, 2009 I would make a list but Bandito actually took it out of my brain word for word. Uncanny really :P Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/172484-why-do-sms-have-more-veteran-skills/#findComment-2038488 Share on other sites More sharing options...
IronWinds Posted July 3, 2009 Share Posted July 3, 2009 Bring back Daemonic animosity rules for mixing of chaos marks and daemons. Make it harsher than before. Eg. no cult marines of one god if you have a model with the mark of an opposing god, and vice versa. Or make it so no model in your army can have a mark which opposes the mark of any of your HQ choices. Â I would say allow individual units that have different marks as long as any HQs had no mark or the mark of glory... or was Abaddon. Â Â And Lash.... what was the ability S psykers had in 3.5? Wasn't it a power that made the enemy move towards the unit that cast the power. Same concept, at least very similar fluff behind it.... but it didn't get abused. Because it wasn't over the top. Make the enemy unit move 6" towards the psyker as he draws them in. Fluffy for that army, still powerful, but no where near as abusive. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/172484-why-do-sms-have-more-veteran-skills/#findComment-2038568 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Draeden Posted July 3, 2009 Share Posted July 3, 2009 I'd be more inclined to go with the Chaos Daemons Daemonic animosity rule. Heralds of one god can not join squads of another god or undivided. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/172484-why-do-sms-have-more-veteran-skills/#findComment-2038588 Share on other sites More sharing options...
TostitoBandito Posted July 3, 2009 Share Posted July 3, 2009 And Lash.... what was the ability S psykers had in 3.5? Wasn't it a power that made the enemy move towards the unit that cast the power. Same concept, at least very similar fluff behind it.... but it didn't get abused. Because it wasn't over the top. Make the enemy unit move 6" towards the psyker as he draws them in. Fluffy for that army, still powerful, but no where near as abusive. Â Don't remember exactly. I don't see anything in the 1999 codex like that, just the 2 shooty ones, the one like gift of chaos, and the nurgle vomit. I think it might've been the 2nd edition 40K psychic powers, but I don't have my silly little psychic power cards anymore. Drawing random powers at the start of the game, those were the days... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/172484-why-do-sms-have-more-veteran-skills/#findComment-2038610 Share on other sites More sharing options...
TostitoBandito Posted July 3, 2009 Share Posted July 3, 2009 I'd be more inclined to go with the Chaos Daemons Daemonic animosity rule. Heralds of one god can not join squads of another god or undivided. Â Â I like the one from the old pre-1999 (yellow w/ abaddon on cover) CSM codex. Tzeentch and Nurgle hate each other and Khorne and Slaanesh hate each other. If two opposing units of daemons are within 12" of each other at the start of a turn you roll on a table and crazy stuff can happen, ranging from vanishing back to the warp to being unable to do anything that turn to being unaffected. Change the vanish back to the warp result to be like the dreadnaught blood rage result against the specific opposing unit (move/assault towards that unit if possible), and make it apply to daemons (not like we get marked daemons anyways...) AND marked units like cult marines and characters, and this would be AWESOME. It'd put a stop to at least a portion of the cheese, and make some games a whole lot more entertaining. It would at least limit them to Khorne/Nurgle or Slannesh/Tzeentch, unless you are gonna be REALLY careful where you deploy and move. This combined with legion-specific lists or rules would further reduce the attractiveness of running these "unfluffy" armies. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/172484-why-do-sms-have-more-veteran-skills/#findComment-2038617 Share on other sites More sharing options...
TostitoBandito Posted July 3, 2009 Share Posted July 3, 2009 I would make a list but Bandito actually took it out of my brain word for word. Uncanny really :P Â Â Amazing. :P Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/172484-why-do-sms-have-more-veteran-skills/#findComment-2038620 Share on other sites More sharing options...
chillin Posted July 3, 2009 Share Posted July 3, 2009 . Make it harsher than before. Eg. no cult marines of one god if you have a model with the mark of an opposing god, and vice versa. Or make it so no model in your army can have a mark which opposes the mark of any of your HQ choices. Â I would say allow individual units that have different marks as long as any HQs had no mark or the mark of glory... or was Abaddon. Â That's no different then what he's saying really. I would like to see: NO troops of a god that opposes the god of your HQ. If you HQ is MoCU you can have any cult troops, but if opposing cult troops get within 12" of each other you have to roll a D6, if it's a 1 or 2 they start fighting. If its khorne and slanny you have to roll for both units and if eather rolls a 1 or 2 they start fighting. I can't think of anything more unfluffy in this game then slanny prince leading brzrkrs :P Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/172484-why-do-sms-have-more-veteran-skills/#findComment-2038624 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Draeden Posted July 3, 2009 Share Posted July 3, 2009 Keep in mind that Chaos Lords are meant to be charismatic b'tards. Particularly Tzeentch and Slaanesh Chaos Lords thanks to their patrons respective talents. All this "If x meets y, they engage in mortal combat" will be going against this idea I believe. And it'd horribly cripple our army. The Chaos Dreadnought is already bad enough with fire frenzy, but do we seiously want our Khorne Beserkers RETREATING to attack Noise Marines? Do we want Rubrics, who mind you are mindless soul bound magic armour, to be shredding down Plague Marines as they shamble across the battlefield with their guts already hanging out.... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/172484-why-do-sms-have-more-veteran-skills/#findComment-2038640 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Amarel Posted July 3, 2009 Share Posted July 3, 2009 And Lash.... what was the ability S psykers had in 3.5? Wasn't it a power that made the enemy move towards the unit that cast the power. Same concept, at least very similar fluff behind it.... but it didn't get abused. Because it wasn't over the top. Make the enemy unit move 6" towards the psyker as he draws them in. Fluffy for that army, still powerful, but no where near as abusive. I think you're talking about Allure of Slaanesh (enemy must pass LD test or move D6" towards the model), but it was Wargear rather than a Psychic Power. For broken abusiveness we had Siren :tu:. Â This current Codex is pretty awful though (and considering how long I had to put up with Mr Thorpe's previous lamentable attempt at writing an Army Book (Dark Elves) I'm not exactly chirpy about it <_<)). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/172484-why-do-sms-have-more-veteran-skills/#findComment-2038651 Share on other sites More sharing options...
chillin Posted July 3, 2009 Share Posted July 3, 2009 Keep in mind that Chaos Lords are meant to be charismatic b'tards. Particularly Tzeentch and Slaanesh Chaos Lords thanks to their patrons respective talents. All this "If x meets y, they engage in mortal combat" will be going against this idea I believe. Â It does not go against the idea proper chaos fluff at all, in fact, it is right in line with YEARS of it. It doesn't matter how "charismatic" you are, if a gang of chainaxe murdering psyco's wants your pansy ass dead b/c they know it'll win them favor with their god, you're not going to charm them into not killing you, much less taking orders from you. Bandito, Ironwinds, and myself are not pulling this annimosity stuff outta thin air, it's fluff and rules from old dex's going back years, in WHFB and 40k.It didn't cripple our armies then it woulded now. This current dex is just completely void of the stuff that made chaos interseting for years that's all. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/172484-why-do-sms-have-more-veteran-skills/#findComment-2038660 Share on other sites More sharing options...
TostitoBandito Posted July 3, 2009 Share Posted July 3, 2009 This current dex is just completely void of the stuff that made chaos interseting for years that's all. Â Ex-actly. Anyone who didn't play in the 90's or earlier missed the majority of the fun chaotic stuff that they removed. They basically took the chaos out of chaos and made them another marine chapter with some unique units, really not much more unique than some of the more exotic loyalist chapters. Someone needs to find Andy Chambers and Jervis Johnson and make them write us a new codex. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/172484-why-do-sms-have-more-veteran-skills/#findComment-2038671 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sons of Horus Posted July 3, 2009 Share Posted July 3, 2009 I want the old chainaxes back!! :wacko: I want a lot of the old stuff back actually and fluffy armies :o Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/172484-why-do-sms-have-more-veteran-skills/#findComment-2038718 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Draeden Posted July 3, 2009 Share Posted July 3, 2009 It does not go against the idea proper chaos fluff at all, in fact, it is right in line with YEARS of it. It doesn't matter how "charismatic" you are, if a gang of chainaxe murdering psyco's wants your pansy ass dead b/c they know it'll win them favor with their god, you're not going to charm them into not killing you, much less taking orders from you. Â I'd like to disagree. Where there are better targets of opportunity and a smart person it'd be quite plausible to redirect their attack from you to someone else. The simplest example, imo, would be with our brothers a few boards up. Why would a follow of Khorne seek the skull of a follower of Slaanesh when they both empower chaos as a whole, whilst their Terra loving brothers are right nearby who seek to rob power from chaos as a whole? Â To me chaos isn't about killing ourselves. Dark Gods know our own codex does that to us enough already. It's more about the character of the army. Which, whilst I haven't played with any other chaos codex other than the fourth ed. one, I would much rather play an army that did not kill itself due to poor rolling. Yes, most of chaos are crazed axe weilding murderers thank you very much Khorne :o I am a chaos player that believes that people fell to Chaos for a reason greater than someone stuck a pair of bunny ears on their head, and as such would work towards that goal ala Night Lords and Thousand Sons in early heresy. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/172484-why-do-sms-have-more-veteran-skills/#findComment-2038739 Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jeske Posted July 3, 2009 Share Posted July 3, 2009 Two DP's with lash and a bunch of zerkers and plague marines, yeah that makes sense... for a BL army out of a BL codex it does. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/172484-why-do-sms-have-more-veteran-skills/#findComment-2038761 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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