MathHammering Honorguard

[BrotherErekose]

In practice (as opposed to theory, these are actual game results), I have grabbed two enemy SM units in h2h with my full 9 or 10 HG, Kantor, and plus a chaplain or Khan (Furious Charge) I'd tie up the two units for two rounds and then be ready to go kill something else or be counter charged by my Frequent Opponent's HG, Kantor and mess. It has been back and forth between us, for several games, counter-charging with Kantor + HG ... lots of bloody, violent fun.

:)

 

It isn't always easy to Assault two units.

 

Thing is, if you only get to attack one tactical squad, they're complete toast and then my HG unit is left standing in the wind for counter shooting (plasma or worse, the rare Orbital Bombardment. It worked for him last time :D) . And that is what I'm thinking to avoid as I'm about to broaden my player horizon (i.e. play in a campaign).

 

My MH isn't great. I'm trying to figure out how many HG to have attack *one* 10 man MEq, and leaving a few alive for the 2nd round of h2h at.

 

I think 3 HG+Chap+Kantor is too much.

 

On the Charge there should be 15 attacks by the 3 HG, plus the chap's 5 totaling 20 dice (Kantor's Pfist isn't in this, yet). With Litanies of Hate, that yields ~15 hits (half hit=10, and reroll the misses, picking up half that=5). Of the 15 hits, 7.5 should wound. Leaving 2.5 alive, not a decent margin in case you're dice are really hot.

 

With Kantor's PF, that's would clear the squad anyway.

 

Would a mere 6 HG+Chap+Kantor do the same job on 20 SM?

 

For the first situation, it is really better off with only one character, yes?

 

Anyone with more accurate/sound MH come up with the same findings?

 

Possibly relevant info:

These are 2k games.

I consider myself slightly above average .... 4.5 years experience and a + win record.

[Giga]

HG blow for two reasons;

 

1) they're too expensive for what they do (35 pts for a guy with no invulnerable save, and a power sword)

2) they do something space marines already do very well - kill infantry

 

Simply put, assault terminators do everything better. The only thing HG can do that assault terminators can't, is fit more bodies into a land raider (which is what you're gonna be using to transport them, since transporting HG in anything else is ridiculous). HG shooting on the whole is subpar, + you won't be using it lots of the time to avoid the unit you want to assault fleeing due to shooting.

[Paulochromis]

HG blow for two reasons;

 

1) they're too expensive for what they do (35 pts for a guy with no invulnerable save, and a power sword)

2) they do something space marines already do very well - kill infantry

 

Simply put, assault terminators do everything better. The only thing HG can do that assault terminators can't, is fit more bodies into a land raider (which is what you're gonna be using to transport them, since transporting HG in anything else is ridiculous). HG shooting on the whole is subpar, + you won't be using it lots of the time to avoid the unit you want to assault fleeing due to shooting.

 

hey Giga, I normally read your posts with interest, but I think you're a little off target here.

The OP didn't ask for you or anyone to compare HG to terminators.

If you have no interest in the question he asked, why post an irrelevant reply?

 

Ok, Brother Erekose, the maths.

The problem with dice is that all you're ever going to be able to calculate is ... what you calculate!

You can figure out probability, expected values, etc, but your question sounds like what is the minimum number of HG to field to be certain (I suppose 97% is ok) of taking out 7 or 8 SM tacts. The problem is that the same number of HG will sometimes takeout all 10. And when you say MEQ, if they're not SM, then just one casualty and a bad morale test can be enough to have them run and be swept (at least you get the consolidation though).

There have been some excellent threads recently where people actually work out things like, what is the likelihood of killing 1 marine, 2 marines, ....

Have a look at those and see if you can make the maths work for you.

 

Oh and by the way, 0 HG will probably be enough Kantor and a chaplain (with a PW) will probably do what you're after, especially if Kantor is able to unload Dorn's Arrow beforehand.

Cheers, Paul.

[BrotherErekose]

HG blow for two reasons;

 

hey Giga, I normally read your posts with interest, but I think you're a little off target here.

The OP didn't ask for you or anyone to compare HG to terminators.

If you have no interest in the question he asked, why post an irrelevant reply?

 

Uhm, yeah, Giga. "Arguments" are down the hall, this is "Getting hit on the head lessons". ;)

 

The problem is that the same number of HG will sometimes takeout all 10.

 

Correct. I've been wielding them like a sledgehammer and I need to be more precise, thus the number crunching.

 

And when you say MEQ, if they're not SM, then just one casualty and a bad morale test can be enough to have them run and be swept (at least you get the consolidation though).

 

Like tau, IG, yeah it happens. That's when I would detach a character. And sometimes, a marine player will even remember Combat Tactics and use 'em! :)

 

There have been some excellent threads recently where people actually work out things like, what is the likelihood of killing 1 marine, 2 marines, ....

Have a look at those and see if you can make the maths work for you.

 

You wouldn't have a good idea on how to narrow the SEARCH perimeters to find those, would ya?

 

Oh and by the way, 0 HG will probably be enough Kantor and a chaplain (with a PW) will probably do what you're after, especially if Kantor is able to unload Dorn's Arrow beforehand.

Cheers, Paul.

 

Thanks, for the reply Paul.

[waaanial00]

Hello there,

 

The thread you are looking for is here. It is a pretty decent look into the world of math hammering (I make a cameo appearance in said thread but the work is not mine).

 

As to the question in hand I would say that Pedro, Chaplain, Company Champion and 4 Honour Guard should be sufficient.

 

Together on the charge they should kill 13 MEQ and if charged they will kill a respectable 7. I have not calculated the likely combat resolution, I can do if you wish.

 

Wan

[Giga]

hey Giga, I normally read your posts with interest, but I think you're a little off target here.

The OP didn't ask for you or anyone to compare HG to terminators.

If you have no interest in the question he asked, why post an irrelevant reply?

Ummm, because the units shouldn't be looked at in a vacuum, and should instead be compared to other relevant units within the same codex?

 

In other words, one should look at what each given unit brings to an army, and then see if there are better alternatives that would do the same thing with more efficiency. Discussing this kind of stuff is what tactical forums are all about.

 

In a more practical reply to the OP, 5 lightning claw terminators + kantor & chap would do a helluva better job of killing infantry, then 6 honor guard + chap & kantor ever would.

[Ryjak]

Well, in an attempt to justify fielding HG over Assault Terminators, let's just look at what HG bring to the table that Termintors don't:

 

1) Chapter Champion: He has a WS 5, 3 Attacks base, AND special rules for attacking ICs. Equipped and fielded properly, this guy can tear through infantry or ICs with ease.

2) Chapter Banner: Makes you near-fearless, start 1 kill ahead in HtH, AND adds +1 Attacks to any UNIT within 12". Of course, if you're running Cantor, this may not be as useful to you, depending on how you run your army.

3) Strength 6 weapons: While expensive, you can get Str 6 Powerweapons and/or Str 6 Assault guns; wounding on 2+ is always a good thing.

4) Transport options: Not only can this squad buy the standard dedicated transports, they can also squeeze in more bodies than Terminators, which means you can get more offensive potential in there.

5) Bolters: While you certainly aren't getting Honor Guard to shoot with, they do come with bolters, bolt pistols, and powerweapons as standard. In some situations, such as facing units like Howling Banshees, you're better off shooting instead of assaulting.

6) Modeling possibilities: Odds are, if your fielding Honor Guard, you're going to go nuts to make the squad stand out from the rest of your army.

 

If you want some more examples, try this article: Uber Units

[Giga]

All those options you mention (banner, and champion, and relic blades) mean your honor guard will go way over terminators in price, and they will still have no invulnerable save of any kind. I also think the idea of taking a rhino/razorback to drive honor guard in isn't really valid. Such a transport is exceedingly easy to destroy for just about everyone, and I don't think anyone would ignore a unit such as HG.

 

Also, 5 guys with relic blades and chapter banner cost 285 pts. That's 50 points per model, that can be easily taken out by all sorts of AP1 and AP2 fire.

 

 

 

 

 

Don't take me wrong. HG aren't a bad unit. It's just that their price, and chapter master requirement, is too much when taken into account that they're pretty much an anti-infantry unit, and nothing more.

[BrotherErekose]

hey Giga, I normally read your posts with interest, but I think you're a little off target here.

The OP didn't ask for you or anyone to compare HG to terminators.

If you have no interest in the question he asked, why post an irrelevant reply?

Ummm, because the units shouldn't be looked at in a vacuum, and should instead be compared to other relevant units within the same codex?

 

Giga, Ts versus HG, point for point, you're right. LClaw Termies are an easier, more economical choice for anti-I than HG. And of course, everyone is on the TH/SS bandwagon as those are more resilient and can take on Monstrous Creatures as well as smashing Infantry. They're great. I like terminators. I started 40k with Deathwing.

 

But, for the second time, that's not the discussion here. :)

 

The thing is, it is a matter of what I consider posting etiquette. Many, many times, on different boards, I have read where someone will ask about, or want to explore the viability and options, with Unit X. The discussion goes south when a reply is "Unit X isn't that great. Unit Y is the way to go ... blah blah blah." AttBikes with MM, Speeders with AC/HB vs. MM/HF, HammerHeads vs. Broadsides, Devastators vs. SG, Banshees vs. Scorpions, and so on.

 

It gets away from exploring unit X. The designers put it in for some half-way decent reason. Talking about unit Y doesn't help us figure out how to use unit X to its potential.

 

If the question was, "Which is better, Unit Xor Y?" Then the discussion can proceed politely enough looking at both. Consider:

1. Say little Billy is given 2k in power armor and rhino models while big brother Wally keeps the more choice termies, LRRs, speeders, etc. "Go play with those, Bill!"

Also, a person could:

2. be hard up for money and can't buy Termies now

3. Think Termies are ugly

4. have fluff that it is a nooB SM chapter that has only been around for 80 years, meaning they don't *have* dreads or T Armor. :tu: That's the last codex stuff, but there ya go.

5. like Ryjak pointed out, like the modeling possibilities.

 

A person might *really* be into that unit for any reason, so I try to show some respect for them asking about Unit X, and then I address the discussion as outlined. After answering, I then might write,

 

"There's the MathH on Stealths and Markerlights ... have you considered pathfinders though? The MH works out better. Lemme show you (provide evidence by writing out the numbers)."

 

I try to leave out words like 'suck' and 'blows'. That's Bart Simpson vocabulary. ^_^ "I didn't think it was possible, but this both sucks and blows."

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For this thread, I still wish to work out the MHammer for HG though and leave the debate for HG vs Ts behind. :) Is it really any skin off your nose if I'm going to run Honorguard? :D

[Ryjak]

It just occured to me... your "problem" isn't that you're using Honor Guard instead of Terminators; you'd have the same issues with either unit: You assault something, then get torn up with shooting. There's little point in trying to find 'safety' in HtH under 5th Edition, especially with HtH specialists.

 

I think what you might be doing is assaulting the wrong targets. Why are your Honor Guard jumping on a Tactical Squad when they could be dicing Terminators instead? What's the rest of your army doing when the Honor Guard and Pedro launch their assault? And most importantly, is it really bad if your Honor Guard die? If they kill of a unit, then tie up your entire opponent's army for a turn by getting shot, maybe that's all you need. They can't control an objective... but the unit gives up 3 KP when they die.

 

Maybe in Annihilation, you should just concentrate on keeping them alive, and use them in a counter-assault role.

[Captain Idaho]

5 Honour Guard with stock weapons, the Chapter Champion only upgraded with a Relic blade and a Honour Guard with Chapter Banner costs 225pts. Only 25pts more than 5 assault Terminators and they get more attacks and most importantly the attached characters and their supieror WS and initiative get the bonus.

 

I use a Master with Relic blade and Storm Shield with this unit and without a Chaplain on the charge they average 11-13 kills on the charge against WS4, T4 models. With a Chaplain it gets pretty dicey, with a good 14-16 kills averaged on the charge. That is a huge combat resolution.

 

While Terminators are more durable, the Honour Guard are more offensive due to their striking at higher initiative.