Taking on the Tau

[Cam2Designs]

I had a match today against some IG and Tau. I play CSM...Nurgle to be specific. It was a two on two match...around 1000 points each player...so pretty small.

 

I ran:

 

Daemon Prince (wings, MoN, Warptime)

 

7 PM squad (Champion with powerfist/plasma pistol, two flamers) in Rhino

 

7 PM squad (Champion with powerfist, one meltagun)

 

3 Termies (lightning claw, powerfist, power weapon and twin-linked bolters for all, Nurgle Icon) in a Land Raider

 

20 models versus a Tau army that included two squads of fire warriors, two broadsides (with some self destruct device), a Tau "lord" in a Crisis Battlesuit, and three of those tank/transport things with the 4+ cover save device.

 

It was a friendly match and I was mainly trying out my new Termies (I do extensive conversion work and, thus, only had three assembled and playable).

 

What I was amazed with was that he had such firepower and wargear on such formidable vehicles and "suits" and all for around 1k points. Every one of his shooting phases, wave after wave of missles (some that weren't template/didn't scatter), railgun fire, etc. rained down on me. When I managed to get my PMs and Termies in close, his fire warriors and even the broadsides weren't that much trouble. If I destroyed a squad or vehicle and was left out in the open, he just fired everything but the kitchen sink at me. His tank/transports had missles, railguns, and drones. His Battlesuits had missles, railguns, and some other weapon. My Daemon Prince was left in the open after exploding one of his transports, and every weapon he had fired at him and killed him. I just have a hard time believing that you can include that many weapons and options all for 1000 points. My side lost by 1 killpoint...I lost the Daemon Prince, the Land Raider, 1 Termie, and 3 PMs. He lost a transport, a broadside, 1 full squad of 10 fire warriors, and a couple from his other FW squad.

 

Got any tips that work?

[greatcrusade08]

against Tau you want to get into CC asap...

My own choice would be drop podding some dreads loaded with heavy flamers (ironclads can have two), land speeders and/or LSS, scout bikers for first turn charges, and regular scouts for infiltrating close.

 

If you want to beat them load out your fast attack!

 

GC08

[Giga]

Yeap. Against tau, close combat is the key. The fire warriors are so pathetic in assault, that even stock troops such as tactical marines will have easy time killing them up close.

 

As a chaos player, you'll find this even easier to do, as chaos marines are generally very good in close combat.

[BrotherErekose]

I play tau, so I can help here. :)

 

Your Land Raider is a points sink at 1k. Normally, if an enemy didn't have railguns then it might be a great bunker/transport. Instead, it is easy fodder for the 3 railguns (or 4?) he's running. If you have the models, switch that out, adding another rhino mounted PM unit or Deep Strike another Termie crew of 3 or 4.

 

The Mech Problem:

and three of those tank/transport things with the 4+ cover save device.

You lost to a Mech army, so the solution is you need more anti-T. I would put double Meltaguns in both your PM crews. You won't need the flamers vs. tau, as you won't have any h2h problems anyway. Probably the same with the IG player.

 

Was it 2 Hammerheads with Railguns or 1 HH? And the others, called Devilfish, did these fire 7 dice or just 3? And if they shot 7 dice, did it move more than 6" before?

 

A couple things:

Get within 12" and the "Disruption Pod" affect of 4+ Save goes away. Try the meltaguns. Then assault them.

 

Rarely, a player will include an upgrade called "flechettes" which causes a die-roll to hit against each attacker, resolved *before* you get to wack the skimmer. Lastly, keep track if the tank moved 6" or 12" as that drastically changes your chances of hitting it when assaulting. It sounds like he's only moving 6" so that he can fire all the skimmer's guns.

 

The D'fish is second only to the WaveSerpent for ugliness in transports. I love 'em! :D

What I was amazed with was that he had such firepower and wargear on such formidable vehicles and "suits" and all for around 1k points. Every one of his shooting phases, wave after wave of missles (some that weren't template/didn't scatter), railgun fire, etc. rained down on me.

I just have a hard time believing that you can include that many weapons and options all for 1000 points.

Yes, at 1k, they can probably have more fire power than any other army. At 500 points, it is just sick. B) Things balance out as the points in games increase, but they'll still out shoot everyone else (*except maybe IG).

 

In smaller games against tau, increase your speed (transports & Deep Strike) to get in h2h faster. You'll get shot up and lose bodies, but probably 2 PM can take on anything he had, that you listed.

 

If I destroyed a squad or vehicle and was left out in the open, he just fired everything but the kitchen sink at me. His tank/transports had missles,

Would that be Smart Missile System? 4 shots ( a rack of missiles with drone 'hats' mounted on the two side recesses)? *Then* the railgun? And the D'Fish had a four-pronged gun on its nose? That's 3 more dice called a Burst Cannon.

 

railguns, and drones. His Battlesuits had missles, railguns, and some other weapon.

A minor clarification: the term "Battle suit" describes both the Crisis (the jumppack ones) and Broadsides. That other weapon was most likely a PlasmaRifle.

 

Exploitable mechanics: a minor thing, as he had only one Crisis Suit (the HQ). It is dirty, but try to limit LoS blocking terrain. That 5e change really hurt tau (losing LoS-blocking Area Terrain) but it means an easier time for enemies to still shoot crisis suits as they're unable to hide behind anything opaque.

 

To sum up:

1. Meltaguns, as many as possible.

2. Change out the Land Raider (if you can) for more bodies

3. Less terrain (kinda dirty though as I prefer a 3rd party to set up terrain).

[Cam2Designs]

'BrotherErekose' 'Jul 5 2009, 01:05 PM'

"Was it 2 Hammerheads with Railguns or 1 HH? And the others, called Devilfish, did these fire 7 dice or just 3? And if they shot 7 dice, did it move more than 6" before?

Would that be Smart Missile System? 4 shots ( a rack of missiles with drone 'hats' mounted on the two side recesses)? *Then* the railgun? And the D'Fish had a four-pronged gun on its nose? That's 3 more dice called a Burst Cannon."

 

 

They looked like at least two might have been Devilfish but with missle racks that were long and ran perpendicular to the body of the skimmer instead of the long gun I see in GW product pics. He pointed to it when he said that he was firing a missle at my PMs and said that it didn't have a template...and I seem to remember that he did call it a Smart Missle. The one in the front was probably a Hammerhead. I should have asked, I suppose. Each one of the transports had what looked like a Gatling Gun front and center on it, underslung below the leading edge.

 

He didn't move them at all. He made me come to him. There was very little terrrain and when he brought the Broadsides and Crisis Suit on, he made sure his commander unit was behind one of the transports. He got a lucky roll on my LR and popped it early on.

 

Okay, so I basically did all that I could against him with the force I brought...except to deep strike my termies. I just got another meltagun for my PM squad off ebay, but there were only a few on there and they were so stinking expensive! I have another Rhino (that I have to assemble). I will be bringing 1500 points next time minimum but he and his Tau might not even be there. I will add a reaper autocannon to my termies maybe...although I suppose their main mission is to assault the vehicles. Meltabombs for the two champions. Add my lascannon Predator to my list and probably my vindicator (I only have one of each). I can field three PM squads of 7 each when I have them all assembled, two in Rhinos. Can you tell this is a new army for me? ;-)

 

As far as Fast goes, I have 11 Raptor assault models...which used to be my SM jump infantry...that I could remodel and field. I have no bikes and spawn are useless. That is all we chaos players get for Fast.

 

Thanks all for taking the time to respond! I've got lots to think about now.

 

Chris

[FabulousRex]

One Word: Bikes

 

Get them and love them, for they will save your bacon against the Tau. Chaos players tend to neglect their FA slots unless building a 'themed' army, but I find that to be a huge mistake. Bikers can be shock troops, skirmishers, cleaners, or any combination of the 3, with the right loadouts.

 

Against Tau, your best bet is a 'balanced' squad, one that isn't too pricy, and gets the job done. 4-6 bikers with 2 meltas and a PF champ. No need for an icon, these guys turbo around looking for an opportunistic strike and keep bad guys off your Rhinos. If you want a straight-up Terror squad, 6-8 Khorne bikers with flamers and a PF usually scare most any army, though at great cost. This kind of squad takes a commanding middle-field position and usually pairs well with a Winged Daemon Prince. For a cheap throw-away to annoy the flanks, 3 bikers with Plasma do wonders harassing the enemy from a distance. Treat them like mobile, non-DS Termicide squads and you'll find some good uses for them, Chaos players usually have SCARY THINGS to distract from a squad like that anyhow.

 

My experiences running a White Scars army have taught me that Bikers of any variety are shockingly effective at getting at the Tau and countering their usual tactics. Don't need to be super-assaulty, they're frickin Tau (though at least 1 CC squad is good to drive off Kroot). The higher toughness helps counteract the S5 basic guns. Most importantly the Speed is what gets them. Bikes usually avoid terrain in favor of turbo boosting. This worries the Tau because you can 'bring your cover save with you' and bypass the Terrain Traps that they like to spring. Having that speed without a Transport denies their superior Rhino-popping ability that almost every Tau player hopes to establish. S7 Missle pods become alot less effective when there's no AV11 to rip up (still wounds bikes on 2s, though).

 

Most Tau hate Jump Packers and will kill them with impunity. But JPs have trouble jumping into terrain and sometimes have to cover open ground and hope for the best. Bikers can not only cover that open ground at a massive 24" boost, they gain a great 3+ cover for doing so! The combination of speed, short-range vehicle killing firepower, toughness, and CC ability makes them by far the ideal unit type to take down the Tau. Just make sure to bring more than 1 squad after awhile, because they will go to great lengths to scour your bikers off the map after a few games...

[Ecritter]

I'm currently building a 500 pt Tau Army ... and yes the amount of fire power I can field is amazing. Even at 500 pts I can field 2 'Crisis' suits (including the Commander) and 1 'Broadside' suit, along with a good amout of Firewarriors, Kroot and Gun Drones.

 

You really have to get in close to be of any real good. If you stand off even the Firewarriors get rapid fire shots at you. The Devilfish with the missiles on the top is a Sky Ray Missile Defense Gunship .... loaded down with Seeker Missiles. If he can get markerlights on you, then you're dead. Take it out early if you can, as well as the 'Broadside' suits and the Hammerhead.

[Vel'Cona]

One significant factor about Tau, is that all their firepower comes at a cost. As the other posters have stated, Tau are bad enough in CC that pretty much anything you Assault them with (I'm talking Imperial Guardsmen here) will win almost any combat. They can field very mobile units (Crisis Battlesuits, Devilfish mounted Fire Warriors/Pathfinders, Stealth Suits) and strong anti-tank units with ridiculous range (Hammerhead, Broadside Battlesuits). This necessitates taking some highly mobile units for nullifying them, ie. Assault Marines, Attack Bikes, and Landspeeders. These fast moving and hard hitting units can bring down the pain in a variety of ways. Assault Marines are very quick, with a reasonable balance between CC and shooting (in particular, their flamers are good for dealing with Kroot). Both Attack Bikes and Land Speeders bring high mobility to the table, and are often the perfect unit for taking out looming Tau tanks and flanking Crisis Suits.

 

The important thing to remember with Tau is that they are vulnerable to Morale (unlike 75% of WH40k armies), so Tank Shock and combat resolution can be used to get them moving the other way in a hurry. And, once again, close combat is always an option. If nothing else, a charge right down the gullet of their force can very well be the best approach, especially if they make the mistake of deploying in a cluster.

[Ecritter]

Morale is a factor unless you're facing an Ethereal's Honour Guard ... they have No Fear and will always pass. Not to mention the Tau have the best Tank in WH40k.

[greatcrusade08]

Wait... Tau can have land raiders too???

 

GC08

[Ecritter]

The Hammerhead has 13/12/10 armor, BS4, and it has a killer Railgun.

 

Range 72" Str 10 AP 1 Heavy 1; or

Range 72" Str 6 AP 4 Heavy 1, Large Blast Template

 

Or it can take an Ion Cannon

 

Range 60" Str 7 AP 3 Heavy 3

 

And it can take several secondary weapon options

 

I don't think the Land Raider even comes close to that. Even GW says its the best.

[greatcrusade08]

Its a matter of opinion, the rail-gun is the best in the game ill give you that, but a LR beats it every other way hands down.. (except maybe cost, but once you pimp out the HH it comes close)

 

Gc08

[Ecritter]

Close !!! ... the HH with Railgun and a pair of Gun Drones or Smart Missile System (most expensive at 20 pts), Targeting Array, Target Lock, Multi-Tracker and Disruption Pod (that's pretty pimped out) is only 185 pts. Last time I looked (2 min ago) the cheapest basic LR starts at 240 with zero upgrades.

 

Plus the HH is a skimmer ... so it can run over other models without effect and move over all terrain ignoring all penalties for difficult terrain and tests for dangerous terrain. LR can't do that. ;)

[Tech Brother Torgo]

Sure, but can you assault out of it? Apples and oranges here... Both tanks are fantastic and are used for completely different battlefield roles.

[Vel'Cona]

I think we're missing the big picture here. People actually take Ethereals??? With an HONOR GUARD??? I cackle with maniacal glee at the thought of a Tau player actually using one of these overpointed, underperforming and "kick me" sign deserving units! :lol:

 

Seriously, you're paying like Battle Sister cost for Fearless Fire Warriors with BS4 Pulse Rifles, that gain nothing in close combat and pretty much beg the opponent to ram a chainsword down their throat. I've never seen a Tau player even attempt this unit, let alone take it to a tournament. Why would this ever get selected over the high LD, faster moving, and far more dangerous Battlesuit Commander HQ? Even in terms of cost effectiveness, there's no comparison.

 

If I'm way off base here, by all means correct me. I played Tau myself for almost a year in 4th edition (when they were actually sort of good) and I still can't figure out when the Honor Guard + Ethereal would be good.

 

Oh, and in regards to Tech Brother Torgo's post, I lawl'd harder at the thought of Tau assaulting out of anything. <_<

[Tech Brother Torgo]

Oh, and in regards to Tech Brother Torgo's post, I lawl'd harder at the thought of Tau assaulting out of anything. :lol:

 

Perhaps they could launch fire warriors at the enemy ala shokk attack gun? :)

[Florida Gator]

Im a space marine, my bro plays nids and tau. Close combat is very effective, but only if you can get there. I played yesterday, but unfortunately he got first turn and unloaded his whole army on my assault marines and my devestators. only my heavy bolter devestator remained of his squad, and my jump chaplain of his. my chappy tore up his stealth squad when it was finally my turn, but i dont think it made up for the marines he already killed. whats worse is that then my chappy was left in the open for him to use his railguns on. damn i hate railguns :) any advice on what to do or where to place your marines in cityfight on the second turn?

[Vel'Cona]

In buildings? Tau pretty much depend on high AP to mess up MEQ armies, and if you can duck behind some 4+ cover (like dead Rhinos and bulidings) that puts a nice foil into their plans. Don't be afraid to use Smoke Launchers early either, as a cover save or two can pretty much shut down the all powerful, but single shot Railgun. Especially in low point games, Tau are highly limited on just how many anti-tank guns they can throw, so if you're going to armor up against them, give them lots of armor to shoot at. This is one of the reasons why mech armies (especially in 5th) are so dominant against such a wide array of enemies.

[Ecritter]

I think we're missing the big picture here. People actually take Ethereals??? With an HONOR GUARD??? I cackle with maniacal glee at the thought of a Tau player actually using one of these overpointed, underperforming and "kick me" sign deserving units! ;)

 

Seriously, you're paying like Battle Sister cost for Fearless Fire Warriors with BS4 Pulse Rifles, that gain nothing in close combat and pretty much beg the opponent to ram a chainsword down their throat. I've never seen a Tau player even attempt this unit, let alone take it to a tournament. Why would this ever get selected over the high LD, faster moving, and far more dangerous Battlesuit Commander HQ? Even in terms of cost effectiveness, there's no comparison.

 

If I'm way off base here, by all means correct me. I played Tau myself for almost a year in 4th edition (when they were actually sort of good) and I still can't figure out when the Honor Guard + Ethereal would be good.

 

Oh, and in regards to Tech Brother Torgo's post, I lawl'd harder at the thought of Tau assaulting out of anything. :)

 

Oddly, everyone at Tau Online has the same opinion on the Ethereal and Honour Guard.

[GreatEscape_13]

Not to mention the Tau have the best Tank in WH40k.

 

Definitely up for debate. Don't forget Eldar here... Falcon with a bright lance. Insanely survivable with decent vehicle punching ability. Or the simple Leman Russ. So comparatively cheap and spammable now that it at least deserves a nod as "best". And all the Land Raider comments too. Hehe.

 

Okay, now for the real question--anti-tau tactics.

 

I'd second what others have to say about morale. That can really hurt the tau. A simple whirlwind hit with the S 5, AP 4 payload can not only mince some fire warrior formations, but is barrage so forces them to test vs. pinning with their only so-so leadership.

 

And definitely hope for a kill point mission. Remind all those tau players that the little drone squadron that comes out of their vehicles when the vehicle dies is another kill point.

 

Cheers.

[Vel'Cona]

Tau definitely got gibbed (and IG before the rewrite) in 5th edition, with the idiotic kill points rule. It's obvious they didn't do any research before deciding on this rule and figured "simple is always better." Was there something wrong with VP? I'm guessing they assumed that 12 year olds can't do basic arithmetic, which given the current state of our education system isn't actually a bad judgement. My 13 year old brother looked at me in shock when I told him my Attack Bike was worth just as much as his LR according to kill points; even younger players know it's stupid.

 

That said, if you look outside of the obvious KP problem, Tau have a host of other weaknesses you can prey on, which have pretty much already been covered. Abysmal CC (in fact they lack any sort of really devoted CC unit), expensive units, and they're one of the few armies that hasn't joined Fearlesshammer. All of this means that pretty much the best tactic to oppose them, is to stay mobile. Assault Marines are key to this sort of tactic, but keeping everything mech (as I've already covered), and using fast stuff like Bikes and LS to hunt their quick units pretty much puts them on the defensive from turn one. Given Tau have a habit of hiding in/behind cover as much as possible, template weapons the scale of Heavy Flamers or better generally mess them up easily.

 

I take an awful hard approach when it comes to Tau, as they haven't been competitive (really) in three editions, and I'm actually not sure how to make them consistantly strong. I've heard that an army of nothing but Fire Warriors in D-fish with some supporting Crisis Suits and H-Heads is the way to go (I mean literally like 4 or more squads of FW), but I simply can't imagine this working. Am I wrong? By all means, correct me if you guys know of a build (anti-MEQ in particular) that can consistantly win for Tau; I for one haven't seen one yet.

[Koremu]

I don't know about consistently win (nobody should be able to do that, in a balance game with equally skiled players), but one Tau player I know of uses a Markerlight heavy army with a lot of pinning ability. Given that Tau Infantry are one of the few basic troop types that can seriously hope to deal with a Rhino at range due to their S5 weapons, you can find yourself facing a harrowing run through heavy fire.

 

The Mechanised Infantry Tau works exactly how you would expect it to. They disembark from the Devilfish at point blank range and pump you full of S5 shots.

 

24 shots, 12 hits, 8 wounds, 2.66 kills average, but...

 

just 2 markerlights can up the BS to 5 and leave you with;

 

24 shots, 20 hits, 13.33 wounds, 4.44 kills average

[GreatEscape_13]

The Mechanised Infantry Tau works exactly how you would expect it to. They disembark from the Devilfish at point blank range and pump you full of S5 shots.

 

And then get flattened by the basic tactical squad that may be down to only 6 members but still can wreck their day in close combat. Just what I expected (hehe).

 

I've not seen this trade-off work in the Tau's favor. If they focus fire on a split army (i.e. three devilfish full drop out and pound a unit that is near no-one else) then it may be great. But even a couple marines still standing can give the firewarriors hell.

 

Plus generating all those markerlight hits means having drone spotters, pathfinders, shas'whatevers in squads with target locks... all of which are just hanging out on the battlefield just waiting for a whirlwind template to end their markerlighting days.

 

Cheers.

[Koremu]

They can also expend markerlight hits to accumulate -1 penalties to enemy Pinning checks, and arm Fire Warrior teams with Pulse Carbines (S5 Pinning Weapons)

 

27 Markerlights in a 1500 point army can stop you doing much, if anything. It's not a pleasant experience.

 

Oh, and beware the canny Tau player who knows the weakness of Combat Tactics. If you try and pull the pin break trick against them, they can just follow you with a FW team and they WILL win the resulting firefight.

[Cam2Designs]

Playing a fearless army helps against all that pinning, so I really didn't have trouble with that. And the FW squads were pretty easy to take out once I got to them. It was the missles and railguns on vehicles with a 4+ cover save that goes everywhere with them and the Broadsides/Crisis suits with the self destruct stuff that was annoying. My Plague Marines are pretty resilient...my vehicles were not.