GK left out again.

[Uncle Mel]

Well GW has done it again. DH and WH get left out of planetstrike. no Stratagems and only a few pictures. Wat could this mean?

 

-They are practically abandoned

-They are to be redone by FW

-Or they are receiving a codex which isn't called DH or WH

 

This is not a rant merely an observation.

 

Tell me your thoughts.

 

Mel

[jeffersonian000]

Are there any Strategems that are usable by Imperial Forces (generic)?

 

SJ

[thrasymacus]

I've come to despise this company.

[ArmouredWing]

There's a couple of strategems available to 'imperial forces' but not really anything of any significance.

 

I went through a copy of the PS book over the weekend and I'd have to say that, again, I'm underwhelmed by the content. I was really hoping that it would be something akin to CoD but, alas, it isn't. There's 6 missions in it none of which set my world on fire and no additional special missions/scenarios.

 

Considering the amount of time that this has been on the cards it's a disapointment. 28 pages of rules with the rest of the 90+ pages purely fluff/pictures? It's not value for money. Needless to say I don't think I'll be paying for a copy.

[Inquisitor =D=]

:) Well at least the artwork rocks right? :D

 

Besides did we need more tricks in our bags? I mean from what I heard the "normal" planetstrike rules boost us quite considerably.

 

=]D[=

[Ozybonza]

It's annoying... all indications are that we aren't getting anything anytime soon - some word from GW would be nice just so I don't have false hope.

 

They still sell the codicies and models in store so I don't imagine we'll be going the way of the Squats, but would a strategem or two be so hard?

[Alanter]

I dont think we'll getting squated. The -I- is a big part of the 40k universum. There is an RPG, specialist system, a big fw-range of miniatures and 2 races with fullrange citadel miniatures.

I think we will be dark eldared. There wont be to much love form gw any time soon.

[Brother Icipher]

I would say that it means that DH and WH won't be seeing any love within the current edition timeline. The fact that they get almost no mention would seem to indicate that there is little likelihood of the Inquisition getting any attention within the life of the Planetstrike book (circa 5e).

 

If what is being said about Dark Eldar is true (that they are about a year off), then that may well signal the timeframe for Sixth Ed. to arrive. One would hope that they will get something at some point thereafter, although it will probably only be once Space Marines, Chaos, Eldar, and all the other usual suspects have been updated AGAIN.

 

Basically, I think that DH and WH will see the light of day again, but it may well be quite a long wait.

[ThePurifier]

I would even dare to make the light argument that the 'Imperium' stratagems were intended for DH and WH only. Both are listed in the main rule book under 'Forces of the Imperium' whereas SM and IG have their own headings. Of course the latter two being obviously part of the Imperium and the stratagem mentioning Iron Hands puts enough holes in this theory to sink a ship. My initial reaction on the DH content in this book was the opposite of what most are feeling. We actually had a paragraph giving possible background for a Planetstrike scenario AND an inside cover photo. Other than the beloved Marines, no other army got covered much more than that.

[Melissia]

I dont think we'll getting squated. The -I- is a big part of the 40k universum. There is an RPG, specialist system, a big fw-range of miniatures and 2 races with fullrange citadel miniatures.

I don't play the Inquisition, so I don't feel this. I have one range of 12+ years old minis and a codex shared with a faction that I neither like nor play, because GW had it's nose stuffed up the backside of its unsuccessful Inquisitor specialist game which they don't even SELL anymore, they offer it for free.

 

I'm at least glad that they had the Forces of the Imperium strategems, but I'd MUCH rather have had a few Sisters of Battle oriented ones... and dont' give me the argument that they aren't involved in planetary conquest, they are, rather frequently and often by themselves :wacko: (heck, C:WH comments that 1000 Sisters conquered 100 planets by themselves!)

[Eddie Orlock]

(heck, C:WH comments that 1000 Sisters conquered 100 planets by themselves!)

It's not hard to conquer a world without inhabitants, and most worlds are either uninhabited, not not significantly inhabited. Land in your drop ship and plant a flag, much like Neil Armstrong.

 

I do share the lament about a codex shared with a force I don't play, but it is only a tertiary force for myself. If only there was something that could be done about all those pesky Sisters taking up so much space.

[Melissia]

(heck, C:WH comments that 1000 Sisters conquered 100 planets by themselves!)

It's not hard to conquer a world without inhabitants, and most worlds are either uninhabited, not not significantly inhabited. Land in your drop ship and plant a flag, much like Neil Armstrong.

It specifically said they "liberated" 100 worlds, IE they fought enemies on them and conquered them.

[Uncle Mel]

I feel GK's are the ultimate planet strikers, having the best teleport equipment in the imperium. I feared we would get left out of good things like this from the moment i saw the 5E rulebook, even DE get a section but WH and DH are nowhere to be seen. Later with apoc, we (GK) only get ONE formation, and it sucked. I am still going to play GK though, even if we don't get an update till 8th edition.

 

Mel

[Kaled100]

because GW had it's nose stuffed up the backside of its unsuccessful Inquisitor specialist game which they don't even SELL anymore, they offer it for free.

I hardly think it's fair to blame Inquisitor for the lack of updates to the WH & DH codices. And what's more, I wouldn't say Inquisitor was 'unsuccessful'. The game was very popular when it was released and still has a fair number of players eight years later despite the fact that Fanatic has closed down leaving it almost unsupported by GW. The last I heard (about a year or so ago) the Inquisitor range was the best selling of the Specialist Games ranges, and having spoken to Jervis & Gav at last years Inquisitor Grand Tournament, it sounds like there's a very good chance we will see an Inquisitor v2 within the next year or two. It may not be the most popular game that GW make, and the closing of Fanatic to save money hasn't helped, but none of that has anything to do with WH & DH being unpopular and not getting updates.

[Melissia]

Kaled: According to the latest and only confirmed information about the codices, Jervis Johnson says otherwise.

 

I asked about the rumoured combined/not combined Inquisition book. What he stated was that Witch Hunters and Daemonhunters will remain seperate army lists, that they remain part of the planned 4-6 year edition life cycle, and that the focus will shift towards the militant chambers for each rather than the emphasis being on the Inquisitors. He indicated that the emphasis came from the fact that they were working on Inquisitor at around the same time and basically got a bit carried away.

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.p...howtopic=151848

 

Essentially, rather than doing the two factions (IE Grey Knights and Sisters of Battle) justice like they should have done in the first place, they tossed in the Inquisition because they were wanting to advertise for Inquistor. Seeing as the majority of anyone who plays C:WH that I know (both online and offline) uses the Sisters of Battle portion of the codex almost exclusively and with few exceptions ignores the Inquisition portion, I'd say that definitely was a mistake that did not help the codex become more popular. Nevermind that it's an all-metal model range which has had a lot of price increases over the years.

 

I'm not certain about the Grey Knights side of things, but I see more people who prefer purist grey knights than those who want to combine both the =][= and the GKs-- but then, I don't look specifically for them.

[Kaled100]

Kaled: According to the latest and only confirmed information about the codices, Jervis Johnson says otherwise.

Getting 'a bit carried away' and adding in so many Inquisition elements doesn't explain why WH & DH are so unpopular though - only why the focus is split between the Inquisitors and the Orders Militant. Do you really think they would they have been more popular if you didn't have the option to take Inquisitorial units? You can still field an all Sister or all Knights force if you want. Sisters weren't more popular when they had their own dedicated codex. I think the fact that these days players don't like metal models has far more to do with their unpopularity - blaming it on Inquisitor still seems unfair.

[Melissia]

only why the focus is split between the Inquisitors and the Orders Militant.

Is precisely the problem I'm highlighting. If those six-ish unit slots (that's NOT including all the various types of retinue for the Inquisitors) were instead given to the Sisters or Grey Knights, those armies would have more variety and probably be more competative as well because they'd focus entirelly on those armies. If the fluff for the Inquisition wasn't in there and instead they expanded upon the fluff for the Sisters, there'd be more information about them out there, information which is sorely lacking right now (even if it wouldn't have matched the information in C:SoB).

Do you really think they would they have been more popular if you didn't have the option to take Inquisitorial units?

I never said that, although I certainly wouldn't object. I'd sooner see the Inquisition side of things get their own codex or minidex myself.

[DFK!]

I disagree that WH/DH were left out.

 

There are a number of pictures within the book focusing on one or the other.

 

Strategems are relatively sparse that are army specific, but there are several for "Imperium" forces, which includes WH/DH.

 

Fluff entries speak to both armies.

 

 

And most important of all, the attacker role was basically BUILT for DH.

 

I mean, 6 elite and 6 fast attacks with only a mandatory HQ? Plus you get to assault the turn you deepstrike? Say hi to 6 units of PAGK and 6 units of GKT DSing and assaulting on the first, second, and third turns....

[Kaled100]

Is precisely the problem I'm highlighting. If those six-ish unit slots (that's NOT including all the various types of retinue for the Inquisitors) were instead given to the Sisters or Grey Knights, those armies would have more variety and probably be more competative as well because they'd focus entirelly on those armies.

That's assuming that if they hadn't put in the Inquisitorial stuff that they'd have replaced it with something else, which seems unlikely. Given that at the time the codices were released the players were clamouring to use Inquisitors in their armies (probably more to do with Dan Abnett's Eisenhorn than Inquisitor), GWs decision to include the Inquisition in the codices was probably the right one (and probably drew in quite a few WH/DH players). However, as time has gone on and the game has changed (unfortunately leaving WH/DH behind in many ways), so the focus of players has tended to be more on the Orders Militant - hence Jervis's statement that they would be brought more into the foreground with any update. The designers may have got a bit carried away with the Inquisition elements, but only because that was the general trend in the player community too - they were basically just giving the customer what they wanted at the time.

 

If the fluff for the Inquisition wasn't in there and instead they expanded upon the fluff for the Sisters, there'd be more information about them out there, information which is sorely lacking right now (even if it wouldn't have matched the information in C:SoB).

While I see your point here, the Orders Militant are closely tied up with the Ordos and this relationship still needs to be explored in the codex - having a couple of pages of fluff on the subject isn't unreasonable. The big problem is that like almost all of the codices released during 3rd ed, the WH/DH ones are very light on fluff - they have far less than the 2nd ed ones. But again, it makes sense that they focused on the Inquisition, as back then the Sisters were well known and Inquisitors were 'new' and exciting and that's what people wanted information on.

 

I don't disagree with your grievances - but I have to defend the game I love when I feel it's been unfairly maligned. Inquisitor is not the reason WH/DH are not getting the updates they deserve - it's just that the game and the players attitudes have changed since the codices were released.

[Melissia]

That's assuming that if they hadn't put in the Inquisitorial stuff that they'd have replaced it with something else, which seems unlikely. Given that at the time the codices were released the players were clamouring to use Inquisitors in their armies (probably more to do with Dan Abnett's Eisenhorn than Inquisitor), GWs decision to include the Inquisition in the codices was probably the right one (and probably drew in quite a few WH/DH players). However, as time has gone on and the game has changed (unfortunately leaving WH/DH behind in many ways), so the focus of players has tended to be more on the Orders Militant - hence Jervis's statement that they would be brought more into the foreground with any update. The designers may have got a bit carried away with the Inquisition elements, but only because that was the general trend in the player community too - they were basically just giving the customer what they wanted at the time.

Meh, I guess you have a point here regarding giving the customer what they wanted-- although I personally never felt that way. I always preferred the Sisters of Battle and never liked the Inquisition (as an army, not as a concept).

 

I don't disagree with your grievances - but I have to defend the game I love when I feel it's been unfairly maligned.

I'm not attacking Inquisitor as a game, only the fact that that it caused them to focus too much on the Inquisition aspect as opposed to the Sisters of Battle.

 

While I see your point here, the Orders Militant are closely tied up with the Ordos

I am no expert on the Grey Knights, but I do know that the Sisters are only loosely tied to the Inquisition. They had no ties with the Inquisitino during second edition, and even during third edition their only ties were simply an agreement to assist them when asked for help and that their goals are often aligned. Nothing more. These same ties are seen amongst Space Marine chapters and the various Inquisitors, too, yet they aren't expressed very much in the C:SM codex.

[Eddie Orlock]

Historically, during the ages of 'Black Codex' lists, there's always been an option for Imperial players to include an inquisitor of some variety in their armies. This was true up until the release of 4th edition, when they didn't print new generic lists. Were we still in the era of 'Chapter Approved' or a functional equivalent, there would be a place for such an entry there, however, GeeDub, in their finite wisdom, has phased that out. All entries must exist in a codice. Thus, the last home for these characterful elements of the forty first millennium, is with their respective chambers militant. Given the continuous legality of Inquisitors, I don't see this changing any time soon, if only 'cause there's no where else to file them.

[Melissia]

I can see how it oculd be done myself...

 

 

 

Supplemental Codex: Inquisition

 

HQ: Inquisitor lords

Elite: Inquisitors, Assassin Operatives, Death Cult Assassins, Daemonhosts

Troops: Inquisitorial Stormtroopers

Heavy Support: Orbital Bombardments

 

(And a couple other additions to the army lists to fill it out a bit more, most notably an FA choice and another HS choice)

 

Special Rules: "By the Authority of the Immortal Emperor of Mankind"

-- If the army takes an HQ from an Imperial Loyalist army (Space Marines, Imperial Guard, Sisters of Battle, Grey Knights, and variation lists of the same), they may add units from that codex to the army list. In order to use these units, one must have a copy of that army's codex. These units do not count for mandatory unit slots (1 HQ, 2 Troops).

[Kaled100]

I am no expert on the Grey Knights, but I do know that the Sisters are only loosely tied to the Inquisition. They had no ties with the Inquisitino during second edition, and even during third edition their only ties were simply an agreement to assist them when asked for help and that their goals are often aligned. Nothing more. These same ties are seen amongst Space Marine chapters and the various Inquisitors, too, yet they aren't expressed very much in the C:SM codex.

I think we're beginning to argue semantics here with 'closely' and 'loosely', but all I meant is that there is a formal agreement between the Ordo Hereticus and the Sisters that has existed since the founding of the Adeptus Sororitas stating that the Sisters would act as the Order Militant for the Hereticus. The Inquisition can indeed call on the marines, IG, AdMech etc for aid, but that's due to the Inquisitorial Mandate rather than a particular agreement with those organisations. Hence the relationship between the Ordos Majoris is technically different to that between the Inquisition and Astartes (for example), but in the end it makes little difference as Inquisitorial authority is absolute so none of those organisations can defy the Inquisition (although we all know they sometimes do).

[Melissia]

Yes, it's a bit of a technicality. Also, Astartes chapters may indeed have the same or similar agreements with specific inquisitors or ordos.

[Kaled100]

Also, Astartes chapters may indeed have the same or similar agreements with specific inquisitors or ordos.

True, I was just talking in general terms.

 

Back to the original subject, an Inquisition mini-codex along the lines of the old assassins ones would seem to be an obvious choice if they do make seperate Order Militant codices in future.