Lost and the Damned

[King Tiger]

The EoT doesnt really work well, and cant be used in tourneys. The fact that GW wont allow it in tourneys pretty much says they dont support it. Ok so you can use it in normal games... but then you are going to struggle. It doesnt really work with either the C:CSM or new C:IG, and is not that string on its own.

tournament rulings don't mean anything at all and they never will outside of a tournament, and they do not reflect GW's stance on anything

 

and it does work with both, players just can't be bothered to see it because there too lazy these days, GW has to do everything for them, back in my day (insert Longbeard like ranting here)

 

one of the HQ's can be a sorcerer, sorcerers are still in the chaos codex, so thats fine

Elites are fine as they have there own entry

Troops are fine, just ignore the wargear for unit champions (you would anyway)

FA is fine

heavy support is fine, the IG codex still has leman russ tanks, the damned can take leman russ tanks

 

allies are fine

 

everything is fine pretty much, fine enough to make a 100% legal army list, that still works

[IronWinds]

one of the HQ's can be a sorcerer, sorcerers are still in the chaos codex, so thats fine

 

Obviously not what they meant by lieutenant/sorcerer, but I can see it.

 

 

Troops are fine, just ignore the wargear for unit champions (you would anyway)

 

Huh... the best part about mutants was being able to hide 2 PFs in a really cheap squad with 32(counting CSM champion) wounds.

 

 

You could play them, but IMO they are not going to be nearly as effective as they were before. Mutants are a hard unit to play without champions, they gave them their high Ld, re-rolling moral checks, and hard hitting power.

 

Whats really sad is this has shown what little GW would have to do to fix them.

 

Rewrite the HQ options to say lord or sorcerer instead of lieutenant.

Champion options: copypaste the options aspiring champions have in CSM squads.

For traitros and mutant bosses have following options: Bolter for xpts, bolt pistol for xpts, power weapon for xpts, power fist for xpts, meltabombs for xpts.

Leave spawn the way they are. OMG They have a BETTER* statline than the ones in the new chaos codex and cost half as much. *one less wound, but a 3+ save to make up for it. Now I remember why I considered taking them with my LatD.

[EquYnoX]

something I found on Dakka Dakka

 

5th ED LatD mini-dex

[Raven Angel]

I don't know why GW has so shafted their second bigest model line for 40k with half done or missing rule books lately. It has got to be caughsting them more money to promote the crap books in lost mini sails then it would have cost to have just done it right in the first place.

[Atheist]

I also wanted to start a LatD Force a while back ( before the last codex etc ) , I really liked the "many - up to three ( ?) - aspiring champions" hq slot .

 

Never got around to start building a single model for this .

 

Why on earth did they cancel this list ?

 

I really don't know , and honestly wonder : did people complain about this list ?

 

Does anyone have an answer ?

 

edit: Tried to erase my post in the clone thread . Too late . Oh well ...

[Brother Hadafix]

I wouldnt say mine was a clone of this thread, but I guess its close enough not to grumble to loudly.

 

SW was a mini dex and that wasnt squatted, and I cant remember any power level complaints about the LatD, it was a solid little list.

 

A new release (yeah, oh so very likely :) ) would tie in nice with the little mention they get in the HH series, not to mention add a little to the game (yeah I know I could use FW or IG, but I dont want to as I used to have a list.)

 

Given that I have switched out now, it would have to be a very well done codex to lure me away from my newish army.

[the jeske]

SW was a mini dex and that wasnt squatted,

save for spain and a few countries in europe , banned from GT tournaments.

[IronWinds]

something I found on Dakka Dakka

 

5th ED LatD mini-dex

 

Not bad I must say. Traitors are way to expensive, they were expensive before, but now that guard have dropped in price Traitors should as well. 45pts for 5 guys is a wee bit much when guard can get 10 for 50.

 

Never got around to start building a single model for this .

 

Your lucky. I have over 120 scratch built mutants that look like the flood off Halo with VERY random weapons. A flail here, a spike here, one guy has a lasgun stabbed through him and he is reaching around his back for the trigger to shoot things in front of him(explained why it got hot).

 

Why on earth did they cancel this list ?

 

They didn't. They were just to LAZY to update it. And LatD is an easy update. The mini dex above was probably very easy to make compared to other mini dexs because all he had to do was update the LatD codex to operate with the 4th ed chaos codex. All you have to do is change a few words so they mean what they meant before(mainly the HQ options), and give the bosses/champions wargear options.

 

I really don't know , and honestly wonder : did people complain about this list ?

 

No. Most people I knew who played it had other armies that they took seriously much like me. Their LatD army was their s :cuss ts and giggles army. And boy did they giggle a lot, I mean gibber a lot. It was a fun army. It was an army of degenerant retards led by a few super elite chaos marines. It wasn't overly powerful. I remember playing my IWs against latD. They died in waves, but they were so cheap no one cared. The closest thing you could get to a really nasty tourny list was a crapload(150+) of mutants w/ bosses and cracked out chaos champions in each squad. Even then, they are like any other cc horde army. They wouldn't do very well at all against 5th ed guard or orks. And if i was updated to be in line with 4th ed chaos dex you couldn't put half the upgrades on a champ you use to be able to(mutation, spiky bits, etc.) so it still wouldn't be as effective.

[Atheist]

It's a shame IronWinds .

 

I take it you don't want to consider fielding your mutants as "counts as " I.G. ?

 

It could work if supported by some vehicles .

 

Don't know however whether the I.G. codex fits your vision about them .

 

I just don't get it sometimes , what are they thinking over at GW HQ .

 

I mean , wouldn't it be profitable for them to have this small list updated and attached to one of the two codices it's based upon ( Chaos-I.G.) ? Do you believe that they tried to avoid demands for a proper LatD codex ? If this is not the case , I can't think of a serious reason other than "boredom" .

 

It's not like they cancelled all hybrid lists' rules . Or should I add "yet" in that last sentence ?

[IronWinds]

I take it you don't want to consider fielding your mutants as "counts as " I.G. ?

 

I tried it, and actually made an overly powerful list. Cleaned the board with my own IWs, and my friends WEs and took less than 50% casualties. That hasn't happened to my IWs in probably 6-7 years. It was a VERY infantry straken(my chaos marine)/priests list with lascannons/grenade launchers in the infantry squads and I had the squads combine into very large units where the commisars, priests, and grenade launchers sat in the middle, lascannons could sit in the back and let the guard in the front take all the casualties. Great list, great potential to win a lot.

 

My problem: I was sitting around shooting.... boring! I like to move, I like to make the other player react. LatD is not a shooting army. Even building guard for assault they still were more of a shooty list. LatD are not. You can make an LatD army with the guard codex and use the minis, but it will not 'play' like a LatD list would play. It just wasn't fun for me.

 

I have the siege of vraks list, and I've even built some new models to be my plague ogres and my exalted champion. Converted some of my mutants to be apostate priests w/ evicerators, enforcers w/ PFs, and I am probably going to buy some minis to convert into rogue psykers of nurgle. I just haven't played with them yet, but it is a very close combat oriented army so I will probably like it.

 

 

I just don't get it sometimes , what are they thinking over at GW HQ .

 

I'll cover this, and why they are getting rid of mini dexs. First question, who is GW HQ? Most of the time we think of the main developers, people like Jervis. Nope, GW is run like big business men like most corporations, they are mentioned basically zip in GW publications and information 'except' for the annual stockholder reports. Something I read, but I'm in that field so that kind of information is interesting to me. Basically most of the mini-dexs(LatD, the EoT codex, Arrmegedon, Steel Legion, etc.) came out in a period of rapid growth for GW. GW was growing like crazy in the early 00s(and the mid-late 90s), partly because of the Lord of the Rings. In 05 profits dropped, and the stock nose dived. Since it has recovered some, it is back to where it was in 95, which is still 1/3 od where it was in 04. And since then GW has been on a cost cutting mission. Every annual report talks about cutting, cutting, cutting.... I never hear them mention 'growth.' They are closing unprofitable stores, cutting back on operations outside the US and Europe. I imagine cutting back on the # of codeci out there is also a cost saver. And the more obvious codex creep we have going on now is probably to encourage people to buy the newest best thing to increasse profits.

 

I don't see any side projects coming around that don't guarentee profits.

[Atheist]

Thanks for answering IronWinds .

 

But even if kept in its mini codex state ( how big was the last one ? 2-3 pages ? Something like that ) , only updated , I think it would still bring some profit .

 

Now you only have disappointed players with illegal armies .

 

This is the part I don't get the most .

[the jeske]

the problem with latd is that it was made with the old chaos sm dex in mind , a lot of the options from those dexs either dont exist anymore, dont work anymore or [in some GW people eyes] would work too good.

 

but in the end latd were a camigne dex and everyone knew they would be cut sooner or later.

[Iron Lord]

I'd say it doesn't require all that much work.

 

If you have Chaos Daemons book + Chaos Marines book, you have the rules for possessed, defilers, daemon packs, daemon beasts, nurglings (gibbering hordes) and so on.

 

The only tricky parts are squad upgrades- I would say that the 75 pts gear for Aspiring Champions comes from the Chaos Lord list, unless it takes a Mark of Tzeentch, in which case it is restricted to the Chaos Sorcerer list.

 

The 15 pts of wargear that Traitor squad leaders and Mutant squad leaders can take, comes from the list of upgrades available to a basic Chaos Marine squad's leader.

 

I'm not sure how overpowered it would be, but it would allow players to use existing codicies instead of referring back to the out-of-print one.

[Brother Hadafix]

When I first heard that daemons and the CSM where to be different books it got my hopes up that the LatD would be in the new codex, like a Chaos Mortals or something... Looking back, I guess I should have known better.

[firestorm40k]

I'd love to see a proper L&tD army list, rather than the Apoc formation after-thought we currently have.

 

It deserves it's place as one of GW proper armies, as the way I see it the CSM are the elite shock troops of Chaos, making surgical strikes , whereas the hordes of mutants, cultists and traitor guard are the ones that relentlessly hammer defences with overwhelming numbers.