Tank hunting Tacticals

[DerekLee688]

I'm trying to add redundentcy into my lists and began thinking about maxing a tac squad with melta: Combi for srg., Melta gun for spec, and MM for the free Heavy.

 

The most obvious reason why NOT to take this is because of the lack of range overlaps between MM and the other weapons. However, this list provides two Melta shots from 20" out from the back of a rino and a follow up two shots if the vehicle was stunned or immobilized. If not, forces the vehicle to move farther than 6" to avoid melta, thus limits the number of weapons the tank can fire. Total=220pts.

 

The alternative to this logic is to fit the srg. with a combi-melta, and melta bombs in addition to a Melta gun within the squad. This allows the squad to shoot twice from six, next turn shoot once from six and assault to use melta bomb, and allows you to take a free ML to tag weaker rear/side armor if target moved further than 12". Total=225pts.

 

In the army builds I was using, I relied on a Vindicator and Librarian for my primary armor with a Tac+MM+Rino/LR as my fall back in a Mech list. Now I'm re-evaluating my HQ choice. I focus on moving as fast as possible and shooting my enemies to death. I'm looking at Pedro or Vulcan to optimize sternguard and this unit as well as giving my armies the much needed CC.

 

My questions are:

 

#1 Which of the two is most flexable/logical?

#2 Will either option make a rino squad an effective tank killer?

#3 Will this leave my army too vulnerable to use as an all comers list?

 

A small points game against a Tau player sparked this line of thought. I figure if I could get rid of that darn hammerhead, I could use my vindicator against his infantry whom were ALL in cover.

[Koremu]

Have you considered Sicarius instead of Pedro or Vulkan? Tank Hunters is funny on a squad like this, and opens up the options for the Heavy Weapons, such as taking a Lascannon for a D6+9+1 penetration roll (ever so funny vs. Raiders, Monoliths and Wave Serpents), or taking a Heavy Bolter, which at Heavy3 D6+6 becomes a very useful light vehicle killer.

[DerekLee688]

I'm still debating the HQ question. Whenever I break the 1000pt. barrier I'll decide on an HQ. For now a Librarian is performes suffecently and is in the 100pt. range; allowing me to take sternguard+rino, or vindicator+change.

 

This tank/infantry killer squad is for 750+ games. As such, I need imput regardless of how the HQ suplements it.

[minigun762]

I personally don't get why Loyalists take the Meltagun and the Multi-Melta. The Meltagun is only useful on the move, with a 12" max range, you have to be closing in with a tank to kill it. The best thing to compliment a Meltagun is a Power Fist, not a Heavy Weapon. If you want a Heavy Weapon, I'd probably take the Missile Launcher because its flexible and gives your close range squad a long range punch if you really need it (like you're trying to kill a fast moving skimmer thats always outside of Melta range)

 

A Multi-Melta is medium ranged and is still very effective outside the 1/2 range marker. S8 AP1 is atleast as good at killing AV10-13 vehicles as a LasCannon thanks to the modified damage roll and can actually destroy AV14 with alot of luck. The best pairing with a Multi-Melta is the Plasmagun. Same max range and S7 and S8 match up well against its intended targets.

[monkey boy]

Honestly it doesn't really matter what you arm your squads with, I NEVER design tactical squads with tank hunting in mind, I often take a multi melta in one of my squads because it provides punch to a unit sitting on an objective with a carnifex/wraithlord staring them down, and by a happy coincidence that multi melta could pop a tank, but I didn't give my squad the melta with tank hunting in mind. Tactical squads are inefficient tank hunters and we have far better options E.G. attack bikes with multi meltas are amazing tank hunters, because they can actually hunt the tank (unlike a tactical squad), they can chase it down, get around it's cover.

 

In short, your tactical squads often will be geared up to bag a tank, and if the opportunity arises then hooray, but that should never be part of their mission statement.

[Vel'Cona]

Agreed w/ Monkey Boy. Tac Squads are very devoted generalists, and are better used when taken as such. I run mine typically with Meltaguns for anti-armor shots of opportunity and MC control, and usually go ML for the flexibility or PC for the anti MEQ. I never leave home without a PF Sergeant, for the same reasons as the MG; it also benefits from a similar ability to remain "hidden" and prevent over-zealous opponents from sniping him too early.

 

To expand on MB's idea with the Attack Bikes, I would say if you really want to nuke tanks without much trouble, this is the better plan. Even in 750 you could probably find the space for a MM AB or two. These will really put the hurting on mobile Tau and Eldar players, and have the side effect of being easy to screen as well!

[Chucku]

I call the Meltagun the "Marine RPG" and invariably have one in a maneuver element. Too many vehicles and MCs on the board to not have one.

 

The Multimelta has grown on me recently. That AP1 comes in handy, especially against open-topped vehicles. While range is perceived as a drawback by Turn 2 there's usually plenty of targets available.

 

Missile Launchers are okay, I guess, but Frags just haven't been that productive for me and Krak's AP3 makes it less than optimal against key units with 2+ saves.

[DerekLee688]

Asside from changing out the flamer and maybie the ML this squad doesn't lose any of its infantry killing capability. Yes marines are generalist but suck at killing armor. For a petty 15 or 20 pts. an already mobile unit in a rino can pop AV14 armor from 20" out. This squad wouldn't be my primary anti armor for the obvious reason of it being a bad idea to have 2 out of 10 guys shooting at a single non-infantry target.

 

A squad kitted out like this is for the senario's of all the infantry to shoot at are dug in terrain that give them better cover saves than their armor would grant. What's the point of sending my marines to die when I can send the vindicator to do the job with impunity and give the unocupied marines the task of keeping it safe?

 

The consensus I'm getting here is that an attack bike or mabie a land speeder would suit my needs well enough. This meanes less points spent on an HQ than my army in general.

 

Does anyone else skimp on their HQ to get that extra element in their armies? That extra 80pts. spent on that named HQ may be the difference between having a non-pod dread or a rino mounted sternguard unit.

[monkey boy]

Asside from changing out the flamer and maybie the ML this squad doesn't lose any of its infantry killing capability. Yes marines are generalist but suck at killing armor. For a petty 15 or 20 pts. an already mobile unit in a rino can pop AV14 armor from 20" out. This squad wouldn't be my primary anti armor for the obvious reason of it being a bad idea to have 2 out of 10 guys shooting at a single non-infantry target.

 

My problem with tactical squads who are expected to kill tanks is that the turn they try (and chances are fail) to kill a tank the rest of the squad (whose weapons can't harm your average tank) just stand around picking their noses, huge waste of points. But if you put the multi melta in the squad thinking this will make those chaos marines think twice before trying to slap me around then you are in the mind set to use the tactical squad and the weapon in the most efficient way, but if you put it in the squad thinking I'm gunna spank that land raider you are instantly going to get disappointed if you don't and chances are you will make bad decisions based on the fact you think of the squad as 'anti armour'. So I don't have a problem with cramming your squads full of melta goodness, but for your reasoning behind it.

 

Does anyone else skimp on their HQ to get that extra element in their armies? That extra 80pts. spent on that named HQ may be the difference between having a non-pod dread or a rino mounted sternguard unit.

 

Skimping on HQ is a trait of my lists, I only take an expensive HQ if its master of the ravenwing or Kantor, both times it is because the HQ changes the way the army plays, it is more than the sum of it's points.

 

Normally I go bare bones on my HQ, a weapon of some kind, (lightning claws are one of my favourites) and a jump pack (as he goes with my assault marines).

 

Generally If you spend more than about 150 points on your HQ you should build your army around his abilities (E.G. Pedro).

 

The consensus I'm getting here is that an attack bike or mabie a land speeder would suit my needs well enough. This meanes less points spent on an HQ than my army in general.

 

I have found all kinds of respect for attack bikes, I normally take six in my lists, three with HB's as they put out a scary amount of anti infantry shots, and three with multi meltas because they are tank hunters with out peer. 5th edition has turned the already good melta (all varieties) into a supreme anti tank weapon if you can move it fast enough, this is where bikes or land speeders come in.

[DerekLee688]

The only mentality I have about a squad like this is that it is better than nothing. If a tank killer is hunting my vindicator or killed it, then I got nothing.

 

That said I'll begin shoping for attack bikes for the reasons given.

[Vel'Cona]

Not sure about loading up on HB AB. For the most part Dakkapreds and TFC can put out more firepower for less cost, at the loss of mobility, but I suppose the stationary nature of these units is something of a liability. MM AB are superb tank hunters, however, and I believe they outdo Land Speeders in this role overall.

 

I heavily agree with the idea of taking streamlined HQ's for most armies. In general, I find the idea of paying 180 or more points for an HQ requires that he be dictating some sort of playstyle for the army, and therefore should guide how the rest of the force is built. A notable exception to this rule is Lysander, who is so brawny he'll often make back his point cost and then some.

[monkey boy]

Not sure about loading up on HB AB. For the most part Dakkapreds and TFC can put out more firepower for less cost, at the loss of mobility, but I suppose the stationary nature of these units is something of a liability.

 

Hit the nail on the head there, attack bikes have more mobility than a dakka pred could ever really dream of, and I value mobility, but really it depends what you want your anti infantry fire power for, if it if for filling holes in your lines then bikes, if it is for protecting an objective or anchoring a flank then go for the tank, the quality of dakka bikes (sorry I just had to call them that) is subjective, MM bikes just rule all IMO.

[chapter master 454]

Bah, mobility? skimped HQs? all you need is a decent HQ that does the job and enough firepower to level half a hive in my opinion. Never liked MMs and meltas on tacticals (except melta bombs which are a barrel of laughs for using on land raiders when they get close. The best oppotunist weapon in my opinion. I prefer good old Plasma cannon and flamer, nice and cheap (180 points for a tactical with melta bomb, flamer, plasma cannon). The MM and melta on tactical is more a drop pod set up and not a good gun liner (short range compared to what most pack, for example I'd just camp my plasma cannons til you had to break cover and then just leave a tiny crater in the ground) however rhinoing them is somewhat decent idea however you'd be restricted in weapons firing (however drive bys by flamers are fun, so I'm sure meltas are real giggles).

 

If your on a 4 by 4 board then meltas will serve well but on anything bigger you need range.

[Koremu]

The best weapon the Tactical Squad has for Tank Hunting is really the Krak Grenade. Their lack of range hampers them. They are in fact better at denying an area to a tank than they are at actually going out and hunting one down.

 

The Plasma Gun isn't generally regarded as a good tank hunting weapon because it is Rapid Fire rather than Assault. It's good at bunkering in a Rhino, or drive-bying from the top hatch, or even for a 12" + dismount Rhino Rush to target rear armour (Plasma Gun + Combi-Plasma), but doesn't combine well with a Power Fist setup.

[minigun762]

The Plasma Gun isn't generally regarded as a good tank hunting weapon because it is Rapid Fire rather than Assault. but doesn't combine well with a Power Fist setup.

 

True but that doesn't mean its not useful at killing tanks.

Its has a significant range advantage over the Power Fist, so you're able to snipe things that you either don't want to assault (Soulgrinders, MCs) or can't assault (Tau/Eldar Skimmers).

 

Different tools for the same job I'd say.

But you're right in that pairing the Plasmagun with a Power Fist isn't the best idea typically.

[Vel'Cona]

Not sure about loading up on HB AB. For the most part Dakkapreds and TFC can put out more firepower for less cost, at the loss of mobility, but I suppose the stationary nature of these units is something of a liability.

 

Hit the nail on the head there, attack bikes have more mobility than a dakka pred could ever really dream of, and I value mobility, but really it depends what you want your anti infantry fire power for, if it if for filling holes in your lines then bikes, if it is for protecting an objective or anchoring a flank then go for the tank, the quality of dakka bikes (sorry I just had to call them that) is subjective, MM bikes just rule all IMO.

 

Rofl @ Dakkabikes, I think we've invented a new term! Copyright goes to monkey boy :wub: