minigun762 Posted July 7, 2009 Share Posted July 7, 2009 We love our little Termicide squads for dedicated tank-busters, and they perform quite well in that role, but what about infantry? Horde infantry is coming back in a big way, first with Orks and now with Imperial Guard and because of the amount of cover saves in 5th Edition, Flamers are also coming back in fashion. So my question to this group is this, Does the increase in horde armies and cover saves warrant dedicated Flamer Termicide squads? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drudge Dreadnought Posted July 7, 2009 Share Posted July 7, 2009 One of the nice advantages of flamer termicide is that you can have a heavy flamer, not just combi flamers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nurglez Posted July 8, 2009 Share Posted July 8, 2009 When i get around to using a more varied chaos army (currently using Pure DG, so, i only take plaguemarines and vehicles), I'd be using termicide, and my termicide is either 2 melta 1 heavy flamer, or 3 melta 1 heavy flamer, as i prefer this config. I feel it gives more options to the squad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jeske Posted July 8, 2009 Share Posted July 8, 2009 zerkers and pms cover chaos anti infantry . with lash and oblits plasma canons in support for the anti horde . termicid geared to counter horde is wasted points . even 5 man raptors with 2 flamers is better as its easier to control where [or sometimes if] they get to fire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Firedrake28 Posted July 8, 2009 Share Posted July 8, 2009 Yeah I'm generally with jeske on this one. If you're gonna Termicide, it's probably best to do it with melta or plasma weaponry. It's far too easy to scatter outside of flame template range. Plus when it comes to horde armies their squads are often both large and numerous, so they take up a lot of space on the board. It doesn't take much for you to scatter right on top of an enemy unit and suffer a mishap. If you want to deal with infantry hordes, grab a small Raptor Squad and Lash the buggers into the perfect formation for a double dose of flaming goodness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Nihm Posted July 8, 2009 Share Posted July 8, 2009 I get by without loading up on combi-flamers by just having the single Heavy Flamer in a squad of 4 (the other 3 have combi-plasma/melta). Personally I don't feel there's any need to take additional template weapons in those two (identical) units. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sons of Horus Posted July 8, 2009 Share Posted July 8, 2009 no need for combi-flamers :) the heavy flamer is great already. I don't see why you would use termicide on infantry though when you can just slaughter them with zerkers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zhukov Posted July 8, 2009 Share Posted July 8, 2009 My vote is against it too. Aside from the point if you need it in your list or not (the extra anti horde that is) I think its not an effective way of doing that. Reasons: 1. Very short ranged 2. Quite expensive for would it does. Termicide armed with combi meltas can shoot down big things to 'earn their points' easily, and can always be turned against heavier infantry, transports, MC's if needed. While on the other hand flamers have much less targets to choose from (it cannot hurt tougher things, tanks etc.) so sometimes it will be really rubbish and so wasted points. Also it needs to burn away A LOT of orks for example to be a fair trade off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minigun762 Posted July 8, 2009 Author Share Posted July 8, 2009 I get by without loading up on combi-flamers by just having the single Heavy Flamer in a squad of 4 (the other 3 have combi-plasma/melta).Personally I don't feel there's any need to take additional template weapons in those two (identical) units. I normally do the same thing as Brother Nihm and Nurglez, 4 guys with 3 Melta and a Heavy Flamer for a good all around squad. The Combi-Meltas also have their Bolters so 6 S4 shots isn't too shabby for added firepower. I mentioned the Flamer Termicide squad mostly because it seems a cheap way to stack a rediculous amount of wounds on a squad. Its obviously helpful are knocking 15+ Orks off a giant Boyz squad but it can also be used as torrent of fire on smaller, elite squads to kill off the special/heavy weapon guys. Plus I'd admit that the idea of burning apart a squad that thinks its safe hiding in their reinforced 2+ cover save bunker or ruins is wickedly appealing. :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Nihm Posted July 8, 2009 Share Posted July 8, 2009 There is that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prot Posted July 8, 2009 Share Posted July 8, 2009 I'm in the middle. I use the heavy flamer, and where there isn't a warranted target for all those melta-combi's, I have a tactic that works quite well. Basically instead of sticking the Termies in one role (which I think is a wicked waste of resources) I use a tactical deep strike against a very large squad. I have learned this tactic because SO many locals play those friggin' Orks. Half of them Horde Style Green Tide. Basically it seems like suicide, but you have to try this to believe it because there is a better chance that it will work out. What I do is deep strike right beside a massive squad that I want to tarpit, or possibly taunt. Again the melta's are a total waste against most Ork Horde armies. Most Ork generals don't think this tactic holds water because they haven't figured out the mathhammer. I usually land in the most favourable area, or near enough, then the heavy flamer and the bolters rip. I do this against a maxed out Ork squad that is threatening to assault, or it is still valid against an IG general who has just COMBINED squads. The best thing about doing this to an Ork player is it forces a very difficult situation on them. Do they assault you? This forces a move backwards usually which is entirely opposite of what they want. Also if they haven't wahhged yet, this poses another difficult decision. Just some food for thought. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minigun762 Posted July 8, 2009 Author Share Posted July 8, 2009 While its easy to calculate wounds that a Flamer will do, does anyone have any reliable numbers on how many models they can expect to fit under the template assuming your fighting a hordish army. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jeske Posted July 9, 2009 Share Posted July 9, 2009 7+ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Nihm Posted July 9, 2009 Share Posted July 9, 2009 From personal experience I'd say 4-6 if they know I'm packing flamers/template weapons and have room to spread out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prot Posted July 9, 2009 Share Posted July 9, 2009 Oddly enough I just pulled this 'trick' last night and got 7 orks under it. Unfortunately apparently needed a flamer template that could fit 95 Orks under it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smurfalypse Posted July 9, 2009 Share Posted July 9, 2009 I'm in the middle. I use the heavy flamer, and where there isn't a warranted target for all those melta-combi's, I have a tactic that works quite well. Basically instead of sticking the Termies in one role (which I think is a wicked waste of resources) I use a tactical deep strike against a very large squad. I have learned this tactic because SO many locals play those friggin' Orks. Half of them Horde Style Green Tide. Basically it seems like suicide, but you have to try this to believe it because there is a better chance that it will work out. What I do is deep strike right beside a massive squad that I want to tarpit, or possibly taunt. Again the melta's are a total waste against most Ork Horde armies. Most Ork generals don't think this tactic holds water because they haven't figured out the mathhammer. I usually land in the most favourable area, or near enough, then the heavy flamer and the bolters rip. I do this against a maxed out Ork squad that is threatening to assault, or it is still valid against an IG general who has just COMBINED squads. The best thing about doing this to an Ork player is it forces a very difficult situation on them. Do they assault you? This forces a move backwards usually which is entirely opposite of what they want. Also if they haven't wahhged yet, this poses another difficult decision. Just some food for thought. Im kinda on the same side that there are situations where this is a MUCH MUCH better option than cookie cutter termicide. On the rare occasions i run a termicide unit, i usually do a unit of 3-4 with one heavy flamer and the rest with combi-meltas. Even agains orks the melta isnt a bad deal to throw down on some nobs (insta gibbing them). The heavy flamer will always reek havok against them so there is no question of its usefulness against them, the same can be said for guard, hell i use flamers against MEQ and it seems to do fine. Much can be said about hitting 6+ guys with a flamer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smurfalypse Posted July 9, 2009 Share Posted July 9, 2009 Oddly enough I just pulled this 'trick' last night and got 7 orks under it. Unfortunately apparently needed a flamer template that could fit 95 Orks under it. HAHA god i love playing against orks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minigun762 Posted July 9, 2009 Author Share Posted July 9, 2009 From personal experience I'd say 4-6 if they know I'm packing flamers/template weapons 7+ I just pulled this 'trick' last night and got 7 orks under it. So call it an average of 6, I think that seems reasonable. Given that, your typical Flamer Termicide squad (2 Combi-Flamers and 1 Heavy Flamer) would net you 10 dead Orks on average (3 each from Combi-'s and 4 from the Heavy). That seems fairly good, but you've killed maybe 60 points by using over 100 if you're trying to fry a Boyz squad. However do that same trick against some Lootas and you're probably just wiped out an entire squad and/or forced a LD check and run away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smurfalypse Posted July 9, 2009 Share Posted July 9, 2009 From personal experience I'd say 4-6 if they know I'm packing flamers/template weapons 7+ I just pulled this 'trick' last night and got 7 orks under it. So call it an average of 6, I think that seems reasonable. Given that, your typical Flamer Termicide squad (2 Combi-Flamers and 1 Heavy Flamer) would net you 10 dead Orks on average (3 each from Combi-'s and 4 from the Heavy). That seems fairly good, but you've killed maybe 60 points by using over 100 if you're trying to fry a Boyz squad. However do that same trick against some Lootas and you're probably just wiped out an entire squad and/or forced a LD check and run away. Dealing with orks is all about manageable numbers. You HAVE to get the squads to a managable number to withstand an assualt, wittle them down to a number you like then move on to the next unit. Taking a 30 man Boy unit down to 20 from a single unit is very very good IMO, 20 is a number that just a base CSM squad can handle in melee fairly easilly. On the other hand, lootas arnt really a huge threat to anything except killing a few marines here and there, and wiping out transports (not like you are charging at him anyway) so i would actually just ignore the lootas and let them do their thing. However, dumping this stuff on a burna squad is premo. You dont see them often but when you do, you have to do something about them. A billion attacks on the charge along with power weapons = lose. Also the ever present biker nob squad is an on going issue. The number i look for in ork boy squads is 16 by the way. If the number is higher than that i try to get it around there. This seems to be the knocking point to where when they charge a marine squad that i am able to withstand and kill with a fair amount of ease. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Citizen Snips Posted July 9, 2009 Share Posted July 9, 2009 Keep in mind you can not use flame templates over your own guys. So if you deep strike them, at least one will never be able to fire the turn it comes in because of the rap around rule. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Humongous Posted July 9, 2009 Share Posted July 9, 2009 If there's three of them, they can all use flamer templates; just position them in a triangle with one tip facing towards the target unit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Citizen Snips Posted July 9, 2009 Share Posted July 9, 2009 If there's three of them, they can all use flamer templates; just position them in a triangle with one tip facing towards the target unit. All terminator guns are right handed and you have to place the template from the weapon not the model. There is no way you can fire all three at once without the template going over one of yours. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minigun762 Posted July 9, 2009 Author Share Posted July 9, 2009 If there's three of them, they can all use flamer templates; just position them in a triangle with one tip facing towards the target unit. All terminator guns are right handed and you have to place the template from the weapon not the model. There is no way you can fire all three at once without the template going over one of yours. I'm at work, so I can't confirm but is that the case? If so its almost a deal breaker on the whole idea as you'd be forced to go with 1 Combi and 1 Heavy. The odd guy out does have a TL Bolter but 2 shots @ 88% chance to hit < 5-7 autohits Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raulmichile Posted July 9, 2009 Share Posted July 9, 2009 You measure from the base, not the weapon. Besides, as long as all subsequent models touch the inital model's base you can place it wherever you want. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corpse. Posted July 12, 2009 Share Posted July 12, 2009 I would advise flame termicide if there was an icon nearby to place them "just right". The massive amount of space a horde army would take makes their scatter all the more dangerous. With anti tank termicide, normally you can sack a tank away from enemy troops to be somewhat survivable. With hordes like orks, and guard you will face a torrent in return if its not done right. Same can be said about the melta/plasma version but with 3 terminators, and only one base to place on scatter, the less space you have to scatter around with the worse it is. I'm against it mostly. I place a heavy flamer in my termicide when I use it, but thats only for "what if" situations, where taking down 4+ repentia or a half dozen storm troopers exiting a scouted-rapid fire valkyrie is just the right position to do it. Extra flamers wouldnt help me there because the first model I place is perhaps the best spot to place it if I happen to get a hit on scatter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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