Question regarding DH stormshield

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Seeing that the codex now trumps the rulebook does our storm shield confer +1 attack?

 

0b

[Chengar Qordath]

Yes, it does.

[Eddie Orlock]

Seeing that the codex now trumps the rulebook does our storm shield confer +1 attack?

 

0b ;)

This is debatable. While it is listed under 'One Handed Weapons', it is subject to note 4, suggesting that it doesn't count as a weapon for purposes other that equipment selection. The note is a little ambiguous, as suggested by the italics when it's referenced here.

[number6]

The reference Orlock provides is the best evidence supporting the interpretation that a DH SS does NOT grant a bonus melee attack. I find that reasoning the most compelling interpretation. I do not give my SS-carrying GK Heroes a bonus attack.

 

That said, I would allow a DH opponent to claim the extra melee attack if they asked me about it beforehand. It's just not going to make or break the game, IMHO.

[DevianID]

With the changes to the game wrought by 5th edition, the nemesis force weapon counts as a different kind of weapon than a power weapon. Thus, the only way in 4th edition to get the bonus attack, by taking a power sword, is gone--as you cant buy a second nemesis force weapon.

 

However, since 5th edition has changed the nature of what does and does not grant bonus attacks, I am in the camp that storm shields DO give the bonus attack, as they are the only 1 handed weapon that counts as only a 1 handed weapons (IE not a special weapon) that a daemonhunter terminator can get.

 

Thus, 5th edition gives and takes away... they give storm shields the ability to grant a bonus attack, and they take away the bonus attack gained from power weapons, and the 25 point combat henchmen with a pfist and ccw.

[Eddie Orlock]

With the changes to the game wrought by 5th edition, the nemesis force weapon counts as a different kind of weapon than a power weapon. Thus, the only way in 4th edition to get the bonus attack, by taking a power sword, is gone--as you cant buy a second nemesis force weapon.

Well, you could gain the extra attack buy purchasing either a pair of lightning claws, or some combination of qualifying 'powerfist' weapons. So it's not the only way, just perhaps the only non-silly way.

[Dilgar]

A pal of mine and I also come to the conclusion that it will give +1 attack. It COUNTS as a single handed weapon, and that in itself is the only thing that matters and the BRB talks about weapons that are single handed weapons, thus every weapon that gives the +1 according to the BRB must also count as SHW.

[Alanter]

RAW: The SS gives A +1 and you can combine it with another twohanded weapon - related to Eddie Orloks post.

 

RAI: The SS doesnot give the +1. Rules as intended are obsolet, because they were written for some older edition. Playing old dexes's RAI in 5th edition is very questionable.

[Terminus]

I don't think the RAW means the stormshield gives an extra attack. If you read carefully, there's a special footnote in the wargear section that states that the stormshield is not really a weapon, but is included under weapons because you can't wield another weapon if you have a shield. So I would say no on the +1A.

[Eddie Orlock]

RAW: The SS gives A +1 and you can combine it with another twohanded weapon - related to Eddie Orloks post.

 

RAI: The SS doesnot give the +1. Rules as intended are obsolet, because they were written for some older edition. Playing old dexes's RAI in 5th edition is very questionable.

Aanter: if you wish to twist the rules 'til they scream in this manner, review the last sentence of the descriptions of psycannons and psycannon bolts armoury entries. "... Only armour saves may be taken ..." In light of that, you should start denying covers saves, 'cause cover saves aren't armour saves.

[Dilgar]

I dunno I still think it gives an extra attack, as long as u don´t combine it with a single Power fist, lightning claw or thunder hammer, they specifically do not give an extra attack if not used in pair.

[Alanter]

I really do not want to twist rules. With 5th edition rules simply changed. If you play with this changes or agree with your oponent to houserule stuff, thats totally fine with me. We for instance houserule some loops, too. (getting out of a Valkyrie, ruins with more than 3 floors)

 

I think that Black Organges question was a RAW question. And the simple answer ist 'yes'. But then again it's not your fault or mine, but GW's! :lol:

[Terminus]

RAW says no. Read the footprint in the wargear section.

[Chengar Qordath]

After reading footnote #4 half a dozen times, I'm still not 100% sure what the right answer is thanks to very ambigious wording. I'd lean towards a Storm Shield granting an additional attack since it does say that "it counts as a single-handed weapon" and under 5th edition rules that grants an additional attack in cc.

 

Besides, the additional cc attack does make up for the fact that otherwise GK storm shields are so terrible even other non-Codex shields look good by comparison.

[Lord Lorne Walkier]

Wow the first question i had about Storm shields was weather we would get the 3+ invulnerable...... From what i read here and from 5th edition i would say the SS has to give an extra attack as long as it is not paired with a Power fist, Thunder Hammer or Lighing Claw. The note about it not being a weapon as such in the DH Codex dose not say if it gives an attack or not. Force Sword + Storm shield FTW!

[Reclusiarch Darius]

This has been covered before. It's pretty clear that the storm shield is a single-handed weapon. This is stated in it's armoury entry, and backed up by the #4 footnote. Therefore, it can be combined with a special close-combat weapon (the NFW of a GM) for +1A.

 

The thing that trips people up is that they A: confuse the DH version with all other SM versions (which all explicitly state that the model can never claim the +1A bonus for 2 x ccw) or B: get hung up on the 'takes up a weapon slot, despite not technically being a weapon' description in the #4 footnote. Both are largely irrelevant to the issue at hand. A doesn't matter squat (we follow our codex, not anyone elses), and B simply clarifies that you can't take another weapon in that hand (despite the storm shield being more wargear than an actual gun/blade).

 

When you consider there are no alternatives left for a DH model in TDA (a power weapon is a special close-combat weapon and thus can't be combined with a NFW, being in TDA prevents the model from simply buying a close-combat weapon due to the * restriction), and the fact the primary bonus of the storm shield is pretty weak (it only works in close-combat, and only against a single opponent), it's not that big an advantage. Sure, +1A is nice, but it's not game-breaking. You also give up any ranged weapon on the GM/BC because their off-hand has to carry their NFW.

[Adir]

Sure, +1A is nice, but it's not game-breaking. You also give up any ranged weapon on the GM/BC because their off-hand has to carry their NFW.

Just a quick note, you can give you GKGM the scourging psychic power thereby allowing him the shield without giving up a ranged attack.

 

I completely agree with Darius' assessment that the shield grants the +1A. Given a) the shield footnote in the wargear counting as a single handed weapon b ) the explicit statement in the DH FAQ that the NFW is single handed and c) BRB pg 37 +1A for two single handed weapons its seems crystal clear by RAW that the shield grants the extra attack.

 

Whether paying ten points for an extra attack is worth it is up to you as the player. On the GKGM I think an extra str6 force weapon attack is a no-brainer. Additionally, having modeled a GKT with terminator sarge storm shield, I have received many compliments simply on the look of the model alone.

[Moonsword]

Historically, shields could be and were used as secondary weapons, such as smashing someone with it or using the bulk of the shield to force someone into a disadvantageous position, or just twisting it to knock someone off-balance when they miss a strike. And then, moving away from the realistic, Captain America's shield needs no introduction, and Perseus defeated Medusa with a shield from the goddess Athena. I'm not sure that these examples justify a +1A, but they do show that the idea of a shield being used as a weapon is not completely out there, especially by highly trained elite troops like senior Grey Knights.

[wizard12]

I asked one of the GW guys and he said you had to use the SS as it was noted in the codex

 

as far as I understand with having to use it as the dex says, the DH storm shield dosn't give an extra attack and you only get a 4+ invun in close combat

 

only hope the rumors about a new DH codex coming in 2010 is true and they'll up date the storm shield so it gives a 3+ invun save all round

[Lungboy]

as far as I understand with having to use it as the dex says, the DH storm shield dosn't give an extra attack

 

This is the point being discussed. It doesn't explicitly say that it doesn't grant an extra attack (as it does in the latest SM codex). I admit i equip my Hero with a SS for the extra attack, but if someone could find a cast-iron argument why this isn't allowed i'll happily take it off.

[Dilgar]

I asked one of the GW guys and he said you had to use the SS as it was noted in the codex

 

...And thus it counts as a single handed weapon and is subject to the ruling in the rulebook, giving one extra attack. Or are u playing against the rules!? :tu:

[Dilgar]

So what is the general consensus concering this?

 

Can anyone prove that "just" by counting as a one handed close combat weapon it wouldn´t give an extra attack combined with another CCW?

 

All the give examples in the rulebook are under the "Fighting with two single handed close combat weapons", and as the SH counts as one, I can´t see why it wouldn´t give an extra attack.

 

I think the gotcha should be updated, stating that it should give an extra attack.

 

Edit: And Eddie the Psycannon thing got updated in the FAQ ;)

[Reclusiarch Darius]

ust a quick note, you can give you GKGM the scourging psychic power thereby allowing him the shield without giving up a ranged attack.

 

I should've clarified; a worthwhile shooting attack ;). I always take 'Hammerhand' as his backup power, if he's not force-weaponing enemy characters/MC's he should be popping that walker. He can only use one power per player turn (sucks, doesn't it?), and he can't buy 'Consecrated Scrolls' to bypass it (which we can do on Inquisitors, with dubious benefits, given their fragility).

 

Additionally, having modeled a GKT with terminator sarge storm shield, I have received many compliments simply on the look of the model alone.

 

Is that in your gallery? On that note, I'm considering getting Inquisitor Rex from FW, as he matches perfectly a GM with NFW+SS. Just need to replace the head...

 

Historically, shields could be and were used as secondary weapons, such as smashing someone with it or using the bulk of the shield to force someone into a disadvantageous position, or just twisting it to knock someone off-balance when they miss a strike. And then, moving away from the realistic, Captain America's shield needs no introduction, and Perseus defeated Medusa with a shield from the goddess Athena. I'm not sure that these examples justify a +1A, but they do show that the idea of a shield being used as a weapon is not completely out there, especially by highly trained elite troops like senior Grey Knights.

 

Not really relevant to the rule itself, but very interesting man. Certainly, you can imagine a GM locked in mortal combat, using the storm shield to barge his way through lesser foes to grapple with a Bloodthirster/Daemon Prince. Storm shields, from their looks and description, are more probably used as a battering ram. Combat shields (which are the 40k version of target shields) are the ones most likely used to smash opponents in the face or in elaborate manouvres. A storm shield is more a blunt trauma instrument; bash them down, then jab the NFW into their skull and rip their soul apart.

 

only hope the rumors about a new DH codex coming in 2010 is true and they'll up date the storm shield so it gives a 3+ invun save all round

 

I wouldn't hold your breath, GW have ignored us for quite a while, and Planetstrike only reinforces my impression we're going to be retired as a playable army.

On a more positive note, if they do update our codex, it's pretty likely they'll bring our wargear into line with the Ultramarines armoury, which is good in some ways (better assault cannons, storm shields etc), and bad in others (we join everyone else in the 'force weapon suck' bandwagon).

 

Can anyone prove that "just" by counting as a one handed close combat weapon it wouldn´t give an extra attack combined with another CCW?

 

Nope. If it's defined as single-handed (which the storm shield is, by it's placement in the armoury, it's actual armoury entry, and the #4 footnote), it can be combined with another single-handed weapon (your NFW). It's right there in the BRB, no disputing it. If people try to argue otherwise, point out their bolt pistol+power sword combo wouldn't work, because both combos use the same mechanic.

 

Edit: And Eddie the Psycannon thing got updated in the FAQ msn-wink.gif

 

That was a deliberate red herring. In any case, even before GW was forced to point-blank state 'no, stop being retarded, of course people get cover saves', most reasonable people agreed it allowed cover saves.

[Dilgar]

That was a deliberate red herring. In any case, even before GW was forced to point-blank state 'no, stop being retarded, of course people get cover saves', most reasonable people agreed it allowed cover saves.

 

Sure, one just never knows if everyone reads the FAQs :P

[Eddie Orlock]

Edit: And Eddie the Psycannon thing got updated in the FAQ msn-wink.gif

That was a deliberate red herring. In any case, even before GW was forced to point-blank state 'no, stop being retarded, of course people get cover saves', most reasonable people agreed it allowed cover saves.

Darius correctly perceived my strawman, but the implication is the same idea, 'cease being foolish, stormshields never have, and never will, grant extra attacks'.

 

There is always the final sub heading on page 42, the one about two special close combat weapons. The description near the top of the page indicates that such an implement is only 'Normal' if it doesn't provide any particular bonus to the model using it. Even if we accept that it is a 'One Handed Weapon' The Deamon Hunter Storm Shield clearly provides a bonus conditional 4+ invulnerable save in close combat, thus, it is not 'Normal' and by extension, must be 'Special'. Further, I doubt anyone will attempt to argue that the strength increasing force weapon of the Grand Master is not 'Special', so, this must fall into that final category describing the penalties for wielding two different 'Special' weapons.

 

Pistols evade this restriction by special caviet in the definition of 'Normal' to include them.