Honor Guard vs. Vanguard Veterans

[Khavos]

So for my 1500 point list, I want a killy CC unit. My entire chapter's as CC themed as I can make it, but I want a centerpiece that pops out of a Land Raider with a CC HQ unit and lays some smack down. The obvious choice is TH/SS terminators, but I'd simply like to do something different. Fluff and personal preference demand that I must.

 

On to the contenders:

 

5 Honor Guard, Champion with Relic Blade, Chapter Banner. Weighs in at 225 points.

 

vs.

 

5 Vanguard Veterans, Sergeant with Relic Blade and Storm Shield, 4 Power Weapons, 4 Storm Shields. 275 points.

 

I'm only going to call it a 25 point difference, though, as I'd have to field a Chapter Master to get the Honor Guard, and he'd be outfitted exactly the same as the Captain I'd go with for the vets.

 

The primary differences as I see them are that the Honor Guard have some shooting capability and get more attacks on the charge thanks to the banner, while the vets lose all their shooting but get invulnerable saves. The vets are less likely to get demolished by shooting in my opponent's turn after they pop out of the Land Raider and kill whatever they're after, but the HG are more likely to actually have whatever they're targeting dead the turn they pop out.

 

Which one's the better choice?

[monkey boy]

Honestly I'm not sure I'd take either because they are expensive and very fragile, but between the two I'd probably choose the honour guard, they are better models and judging by your post fluff seems quite important to you, and I think it's quite fluffy for the chapter master to role with his honour guard, plus if you take the chapter master you get a one shot pie plate of death.

[waaanial00]

I prefer my alternative:

 

8 Vanguard - Relic Blade, 3 Storm Shields, 2 Power Weapons

 

This will put 4 kills on MEQ on the charge. More if your opponent rolls badly for armour saves. This unit rewards you with more wounds and higher potential kill totals.

 

Against something like hoard Orks it is actually better than both because it allows you to chose an HQ other than Chapter Master whilst giving you more kills than the all power weapon version. Given that the majority of the units you will face are not going to be all power weapons (even 5 storm shields will not save you against that unit) I think the loss of some Storm Shields is not a massive hit to this unit.

 

The cost of this unit is 275 as well, which is not that bad.

 

Wan

[Captain Idaho]

I prefer my alternative:

 

8 Vanguard - Relic Blade, 3 Storm Shields, 2 Power Weapons

 

This will put 4 kills on MEQ on the charge. More if your opponent rolls badly for armour saves. This unit rewards you with more wounds and higher potential kill totals.

 

Against something like hoard Orks it is actually better than both because it allows you to chose an HQ other than Chapter Master whilst giving you more kills than the all power weapon version. Given that the majority of the units you will face are not going to be all power weapons (even 5 storm shields will not save you against that unit) I think the loss of some Storm Shields is not a massive hit to this unit.

 

The cost of this unit is 275 as well, which is not that bad.

 

Wan

 

Oooh that is a good combo mate! The only thing I don't like about your Vanguard there is they will struggle against heavy infantry and FNP, but then I'm sure you wouldn't just charge straight into their nemesis unless the odds are stacked in your favour eh? ;)

 

I would say this is better than the prefered Vanguard squad you have suggested Khavos (sorry).

 

I prefer Honour Guard for the reasons of the Champion and his relic blade, and the Chapter Banner. The unit is 2+ save anyway, so you won't be losing out at all really, while the Chapter Banner makes any attached Character amazing thanks to a Master's higer initiative and the fact the squad get's 5 (yes count 'em) attacks each on the charge!

 

The amount of times the Champion and Master with their relic blades have caused alot of damage (2+ to wound) makes the choice to me, as when casualities start coming later in the game (and they will), the Champion and Master together keeps a healthy offensive core, even if it's just the 2 of them.

 

I suppose it comes down to a unit that has an offensive core that lasts until the end of the squad (normally, though bad luck can spoil things...) or a unit that is really powerful and has more bodies on the board/surivivability yet each death really hurts the offensive output of the unit.

 

What has your Capatin/Master got? I use the same model, armed with a Relic blade and Storm shield, and I put as many wounds on him as possible to save the unit. Generally this works my way, but occassionally (read all the time!) I fail 2 out of 2 plasma gun shots on a 3+!

[Khavos]

Thanks for the replies guys. Captain Idaho, the loadout for my Master/Captain would be a Relic Blade, Storm Shield, Artificer Armor, and Digital Weapons.

 

I think I'll probably end up going with the Honor Guard, and see how they do. I was really hoping the Vanguard Vets would have similar offensive output while being better at taking those plasma shots, but if even the Storm Shields won't help 'em, c'est la vie.

[silencer]

Hey,

 

I don't agree with Idaho, but believe that will be always the same on the matter of honour guard vs. Vanguard/Command squad.

 

I think Wan's suggestion isn't that bad, because it includes some cheap sacrifices (from the 6th Vet on they cost just 20 points). I would just switch one PW in favour of a TH or PF because so you can hurt monstrous creatures easier. I used the combo of the RB and a TH and killed a Great Demon as well as an Demon Prince in one game against a friend's Black Legion...true Kor'sarro Khan did his share until he was killedand it helped to have Cassius to reroll the hits in the first round :devil:

 

The point is that some player will forgo shooting on a unit with some 3+ invuln. saves...believe me, Chemocanons are no problem for this loadout. And these saves together with FNP is even more sexy. That is the reason why I would consider a Command squad...the only disadvantage is that you loose the Vanguard-Sgt's cool RB and don't have any easy sacrifices, but you keep at least their firepower.

 

So I come to the conclusion that Vanguards are the better invention, because they can deal blows and can take sticks.

[Khavos]

I'm honestly probably going to give a ridiculously expensive Vanguard unit a shot. Jump packs, power weapons, thunder hammers, storm shields, the works. I know the general rule of thumb is that if you hit 40 points per model you should just take TH/SS terminators, but...I dunno. I like jump infantry. I'll make them as killy and as survivable as possible and see how they fare. I'd really like to let them keep the bolt pistols instead of taking storm shields, just for some shooting prior to the charge, but they're going to be expensive either way and a plasma cannon could seriously ruin the day with no invuln save.