A Quick Overview of Huron's First Two Games

[Prot]

Going from my army list post, I'll copy and paste the final list here:

 

HQ:

Huron 170

 

TROOPS:

8 Khorne Berzerkers- includes a champ w/fist. Rhino: 243

 

9 Corsair Marines, including Champ with fist, and 1 meltagun. Icon of Khorne. (They will ride with Huron in the Landraider): 215 pts

 

ELITES:

5 x Terminators; one powerfist, 4x Combimelta's, 1 heavy flamer, Icon of Glory: 195 pts

 

HEAVY:

Landraider; Daemonic Possesion: 240 Pts

 

3 x Obliterators: 225 Pts

 

8 x Havoks, 2 Missile L. 2 Autocanons, Icon of Glory: 210 Pts.

 

That tops me out at 1498.

 

Now certainly I admit some of the stuff I was simply experimenting with, including Huron himself. I managed to get two games in against the same Ork player who was wanting to get some testing in for a tournament this weekend. So I thought this could be a good test.

 

His list went something like this:

 

Warboss in mega armour, which rode with 4 Mega Armoured Nobs in a truck

2 x 30 foot slogging Orks with rokits.

Stinkrot and a rear infiltrating 10 man Commando unit

1 Truck with Truck Boys

2 Heavy Flamer Trucks

3 x Killer Kans

 

Something that became amazingly obvious, and again this is probably why I don't take super expensive units in 1500 pts, is after deployment I *felt* outnumbered about 8-1.

The first game was Secure And Control with Dawn of War Deployment:

The terrain was fair. We had Gothic city ruins, about 2 per side with some debris in the middle of the table. As far as I am concerned we always refer to "Secure and Control" the ultimate 'tie scenario'.

 

Long story short I did make some very stupid moves. I really felt overwhelmed, but I did not want to just sit back and shoot which is always tempting against Orks of this flavour. I did have first turn, and his helped but not enough.

 

This game did however come down to the last turns. I realized I had broken his warboss with my Berzerkers, and reluctantly did not stay within 6" of him, allowing him to rally. This truly was a game turner because my Berzerkers sat on his objective, but were only 2 bodies left, which died.

 

As much as I'd like to blame Huron's insanity for the decision making, it was my fault. :D I admit I have been rusty. Too many games with Eldar, and IG. So I believe we ended in a tie? If the Orks won, it was bloody close.

 

Game 2 was the multiple objective one, and a full out deployment without forced reserves.

 

I started with a horrendously stupid mistake. I rolled up a rhino too far, with Berzerkers still in it! This proved to be too tempting a honey pot for the Orks. They surrounded it with a ton of guys. In turn I hammered them with Plasma cannons from Oblits, hammered him with Havoks, and threw any loose change at them, hoping to take an eye out.

 

I lost this one too even though the game was quite close. He used his Waahg early and I've played Orks many times, but am always amazed how they can be right in your face by turn 2.

Conclusion of Huron's Corsair (units) Performance:

 

Troops:

Berzerkers. I am very used to these guys being I predominately played World Eaters in 5th edition. They were always 'good' in these games, but inevitably over whelmed. They work best with... more Berzerkers which they did not have in this list.

 

Red Corsairs with Mark of Khorne: I admit we were rushing at some points and did NOT properly wound allocate (I still find it amusing GW thinks wound allocation allows for faster play). This means I believe my Icon lasted longer than normal, and perhaps the champion did as well. Honestly this unit is NOT BAD, but pretty expensive. In a way they get a big FAIL from me just because they played Orks and I could not believe how my units could BARELY survive 'First Contact' with the enemy.

 

I'm fighting cheap Orks here. I need more bang for my buck. Oddly enough the combo of having that squad in a Landraider, accompanied by Huron meant I always got the assault rush, I would maybe get lucky with 2-3 guys left after killing off 30 Orks. That is a completely unacceptable exchange IMHO.

 

ELITES:

5 Terminators: In each game I took extremely high risk chances with them. In the first game I missed with EVERY combi-melta shot! (That's 4 shots in the squad). They used the heavy flamer to great success and they were very good at sticking around in close combat. Amazingly, I really, REALLY wanted to use those melta's in game 2 so I dropped the squad right beside a squad of Mega-armoured Nobs. What a score! I put them right where I hoped!! Four clean melta shots at 4 Nobs.... all of them missed again! Man I was cursed there. Having one shot weapons really sucks sometimes. Still all in all, I would say considering what these guys did (I put them in really ugly situations) they get a passing grade. I am not sure yet, but I don't think I'd change anything.

 

HEAVY:

Obliterators: I don't know if this is from my Iron Warrior days, but I've always loved these guys. I mean even before they were cool. (Anyone remember when Oblits had really crappy hairdo's and wore KISS boots?)

 

Anyway I've used these guys a ton. They're a no-brainer for me. I had some missfortunes with Plasma Cannon shots, but all in all they did remove a LOT of green skins. When the time came, they could turn to a trukk and annihilate it, or turn to a squad of Killa Kans and do some real damage. An expensive unit, but I make them work. Pass

 

Havoks: What to say about this squad? Well they are kitted out to be good at mid-armour busting, or tough creature pounding. But their real limitation comes from two things: 1 I think the MUST have an icon. You can't have an expensive anchor like this running off the table. So they get expensive! In each game I had them perched on the third floor of a building with PERFECT line of sight. They removed about 4-5 Orks a turn, Or one truck.

 

However, their second downfall (the first being cost) is when you think of how expensive they are, and the fact that today's 40K Game is loaded with speed, these guys don't adjust well at all. In the first game I spent two turns getting them into position, meaning they had one turn of shooting. Oblits just don't require that. I give the Havoks a fail (as I have them configured).

Landraider:

This is a really tough one to grade. With my play style I always think back to my Black Templar's days, and how much I wish Chaos had access to a Landraider Crusader. Seriously.

 

That being said there are two factors I have to consider: Cost and Purpose. Will the Landraider ever make up its cost? Probably not, BUT will its purpose outweigh its expense? In game one the Landraider lasted the entire game. In game two it lasted up until turn 5 in which it was empty, but suffered a penetrating 6 and exploded big time. So we obviously have survivability going for it.

 

In each game, the Landraider valiantly charged forward delivering Huron and Khorne marked Corsairs to their destination where they got to rush in after a 12" move and assault. THAT is pretty potent, unfortunately the Corsairs were not. So that's my problem. Now just to figure out what to do with the contents of the Landraider.

 

So I give the Landraider a marginal pass. In 1500 point games, it's really hard to fit in at all. It's just so expensive. But it's definitely a 'fun' unit.

 

Huron Blackheart:

The Tyrant of Badab, or the Overpriced of Wannabe Chaos Lords?

 

I'd have to sum up my experiences with Huron like this; he is a cool idea, but he's simply too expensive for what he does. He is not even close to a Space Marine character in ability. He is fun, but at a paltry 3 attacks, he is simply a non-factor in the game. This isn't the venue for it, but he really should have a wide sweeping effect (Combat Tactics) on the entire army. Instead he actually feels like a 'good performing' Captain. Or like a Black Templars Champion. Like he might do something worthwhile at some point.. but not likely.

 

He doesn't have eternal warrior which I find might save him because on one hand he will NEVER clear out his attackers, he just doesn't have it, but on the other hand he can't survive any real attacks directed at him, and he will always suffer the hidden fist, instant death.

 

He gets a fail. I will include him in my lists for Corsair flavour only, but he needs so much support it isn't funny. He's no Khârn, in fact he's probably one of the worst current day special characters I can think of for his point value. That's really too bad. Warp Time is 'fun', but rather 'meh' in games terms. A Daemon Prince with wings is clearly superior. Or a cheap HQ with Lash is probably a lot more efficient.

 

So that's my thorough rundown of the list, and the games I played. Where do I go from here? Not sure. I need to tweak the list, but it lacks... punch right now. It still feels VERY substandard to my World Eaters armies. I don't know what to do with the troops. The Havoks might get cut.... and if I can't find a better 'stabby' unit, the Landraider might get cut too, but I'm reluctant to lose it as it actually help Huron out.

 

Thanks for reading.

[minigun762]

Thanks for taking the time to do a detailed write up on your experiences.

I would say 2 things before you bag the army or start making sweeping changes.

1) You're still learning with this army, so you may just have to get a different mindset then what you have for your Beserkers.

2) You only fought a single army type.

 

Considering both of these points, my gut instinct is to tell you to try another game or two, possibly against a Marine player and see if your findings still hold up.

 

Four clean melta shots at 4 Nobs.... all of them missed again! Man I was cursed there

By my calculations, there is only a 1.2% chance of that happening, so don't get too discouraged. :)

Just blame Mork and Gork.

[Prot]

I actually think it's more accurate to say... 'I'm just learning with this army LIST'. Certainly not new to Chaos, but this list? yes.

 

The single army type is a good point, however, there is still a massive population of Ork players in my area so it is my first 'qualifier' for any army to ask the question: How does it do against Orks?

 

I agree that I don't want to make wide sweeping changes though. The thing is 9 Corsairs with Mark of Khorne are really only a few points away from 8 True Khorne Berzerkers. That is just insane. Berzerkers are SO much better (in that role).

 

This leads me back to the very first problem I had when creating lists when this codex first came out: what the heck do you do with the common marine? To me, 8 Berzerkers with a champ is far superior to marked 9 man squad. But for Huron's sake I really don't want to remove red corsairs from a red corsair list.

 

The only thing I'm thinking of changing right now are the Corsairs and the Havoks. We'll see though, like you said, it's only two games which is a good point.

[Smurfalypse]

I agree with you on some of this, but i have used Huron a few times and have always had great results. The flamer being able to reroll the wounds is insane, especially vs armies who usually wont get an armor save. The option to choose whether to use a power fist or power weapon (both with warptime up and running) is very good as well. You dont get the off hand attack, but warptime more than makes up for that, I have always had him dominate when he was used in my games, but thats personal preference and use. I also used him in a land raider but i had him with some chosen with other melee based weaponry.

 

I agree with the havoks, its like the game is to fast for them if you dont have the perfect position to deply them in. The only time i use them now is with x2 flamers and x2 meltas and use them alot like a base CSM unit with a little more umph.

 

Ive never actually used zerkers so not sure how i would fare with them. I have used CSMs with icon of khorne before and against orks thats a real treat. When they charge you that extra attack each, going before they do really can minimize the damage you take. I like them better, especially vs mob armies because of the bolter+bolt pistol+ccw weapon aspect, also being able to throw in a flamer and melta into the unit really makes them a truly versitile bunch.

 

Oblits are way to good...I dont think anyone really dislikes them :)

 

Land raider vs orks is pretty funny. Except for the warboss in melee on the charge the entire army i think has nothing better than a str 9 weapon. All shooty is str 8 or less (other than the big mek cannon thingy), so the raider just kinda sticks around for a long while. This is great for when you want to assualt something, you can kinda drive into the middle of his line and create havok.

 

Terms are always good. Missing all those meltas is awful though, cant judge anything off of that :cuss

 

I kinda like the oddball lists and am a HUGE fan of that type of stuff, so i love what you did and managed to do against a rough army to handle.

[minigun762]

I actually think it's more accurate to say... 'I'm just learning with this army LIST'. Certainly not new to Chaos, but this list? yes.

Thats what I meant haha, sorry about that.

 

I agree that I don't want to make wide sweeping changes though. The thing is 9 Corsairs with Mark of Khorne are really only a few points away from 8 True Khorne Berzerkers. That is just insane. Berzerkers are SO much better (in that role).

 

The advantage that the CSMs have is in their Bolters and Special Weapons. If you're only using them as an assault squad, the Berserkers will naturally be better because thats their intended role. You would try replacing the Meltagun with a Flamer, giving you 2 templates to lay out before you charge (hell give the Champion a Combi-Flamer and you'll have 3).

 

This leads me back to the very first problem I had when creating lists when this codex first came out: what the heck do you do with the common marine? To me, 8 Berzerkers with a champ is far superior to marked 9 man squad. But for Huron's sake I really don't want to remove red corsairs from a red corsair list.

Competitively the answer's easy. Switch the squads.

Put Huron in the Land Raider with the Beserkers, now you have a dedicated assault unit with a nasty Heavy Flamer built it.

Then put 10 marked Corsairs into a Rhino, where their Bolters and Special Weapons will be useful. Since they're no longer acting as a bodyguard unit, I'd go with 2 Meltaguns, Power Fist and Icon of Khorne. Now you're just created a wonderful MC/Dreadnought/vehicle hunting squad while your Beserkers are shredding infantry.

[chillin]

Don't think you did badly, orks are a good army and you said both games were close, and like you said it's a new army for you.

There is some fat in the list though.

At 1500 pts, the most termi's I would use is 3 man termicide unit.

I wouldn't use havocs at 1500. Not crazy about 2 AC & 2 ML's anyway.

I wouldn't use a LR at 1500 either, if I did I would put the brzrkrs in it to ensure FC.

Like minigun sz, you can't really tell to much about an army in 2 games vs the same opponent anyway, except to use it as a learning exp.

Good luck w/ it.

[Rahveel]

good writeup!

 

I do disagree about your veiws on Huron though. Ive used him in several games (mostly against orks and various marine types), and never felt let down by him. he isnt a spectacular over acheiver, but warptime paird with a PW/PF/H. Flamer is very, very nice. I usually run him with a unit of CSM's (IoCG, IoS, and IoK seem to do best), usually with paird flamers and a fist champ. not much that can stand up to that outside of TeQ/nurgle.

 

the only havoc config I have had any luck with is 3-4 M. launchers, with at least as many regular marines as ones with heavy weapons. Its an expensive option, but I like to give them an IoN for extra survivabuility. when it all boils down to it though, there are usually better options (oblits/vindis/defilers)

 

not a big termicide fan, I know many feel differently, but I dont like throwing away 200 pts, they cannot usualy make it back in a single turn.

[Prot]

Well first off thanks for the feedback guys. I truly appreciate it.

 

To respond to the Huron fans, I guess I have perhaps an unfair view of him. Honestly, I forgot to re-roll the wounds on the flamer. Forgot entirely about that little trick.

 

What I would say to you Huron fans is... have you ever used Khârn? Because that's what I'm coming from and he does make Huron look like a punching bag.... against vehicles, characters.... pretty much anything. BUT that might be unfair. I do believe Khârn is far superior, but I guess I'm being too hard on Huron. He will stay in the list.

 

As far as swapping the Berzerkers for the Corsairs, good idea. I was thinking of it myself. I'd still like to mark them... with something. Nurgle or Khorne I suppose and give them two melta's, or plasma or something. I like that idea. Huron will ride with the 'Zerkers for maximum assaulty-ness!!!

 

The Havoks... I'm still torn on. The Landraider.... sorry but it has to stay for now! It's too fun, and suits Huron for stature and attitude. ;)

[minigun762]

The Havoks... I'm still torn on.

 

I'm fairly confident that the Havocks can be made to work for you. The key is to use them in conjunction with the rest of your army.

First and foremost, I'd position them where they have a wide firing lane. If this means you have to deploy out of cover, so be it. We tend to forget that Marines come standard with a 3+ armor save, so we aren't as reliant on cover as Orks or IG. They have a 48" range which means that they should be able to cover the entire board if you deploy them well. That range also helps to protect them as it minimizes the amount of anti-infantry firepower they will recieve early on. You have 8 bodies in the unit, so you can soak up some damage and few people are going to be targeting your Havocks when you have more aggressive units being shoved down their throat.

 

So after you've deployed them with a commanding view of the board, you'll want to think about target priority. I'd say that first choice would go towards AV10-12 transports and MCs with a 3+ armor save or worse. Both of these units are usually high value targets either by themselves or for what they carry. If all your Havocks do all game is open up Rhinos, exposing the troops to a few Plasma Cannon shots from your Obliterators, then I'd say mission accomplished. If you're up against someone who doesn't have either MCs or transports (which is fairly rare I'd say) you can then start targeting infantry. 4 S7 shots and 2 cupcakes is a fairly decent way of removing light-medium infantry. Aim it at higher value targets first (like Lootas or Genestealers) if you can.

 

So basically if you plan ahead, deploy properly and pick your targets, you should see some solid results with your Havocks.

[chillin]

I think havocs can work too, just not at 1500, pts are just too limited. Even at 1650 they can wk, but 1500 is just alittle too tight.

I like HB havocs (w/ 1 AC thrown in for xtra punch vs rinos).

[minigun762]

I think havocs can work too, just not at 1500, pts are just too limited. Even at 1650 they can wk, but 1500 is just alittle too tight.

I like HB havocs (w/ 1 AC thrown in for xtra punch vs rinos).

 

Maybe, but the nice thing about Havocks is you can always shrink the squad.

I ran the numbers in another threat but 6 Havocks with 3 AutoCannons will out perform 2 Obliterators against AV10-12 consistently for the same point cost.

[nurglez]

i generally used to run 5-6 havocs with 3 missile launchers, weren't so great vs armor 14 vehicles, but against hordies had 3 blast templates, and against marines could fire 3 krak. 3 on target frags took out a squad of 10 horrors (including the changling) in 1 go once :)

 

But i agree that they are quite situational, in some games you might have to move them for a few turns, i generally dont use heavy weapon havocs anymore.

 

Remember, you can run them as a beefed up marine squad, sure they arent scoring anymore, but they get extra special weapons, and as they arent scoring, its not as big a loss if they die.

 

I also agree that with the specialist marines (khorne berzerkers, plaguemarines) it does sometimes feel that theres not much reason to bring along "regular" guys, just remember that they dont have to have a champion, and they can be kept as pretty cheap fire support/tar pit squads, i once fit about 50-60 marines into a 1500 point army, with points left over for a few other toys.

 

Huron, well, i cant comment much on him, the one time i faced him i wiped out the squad he was with, then my landraider shot him to death (lascannon to the face anyone?). I'd prefer a prince purely for the no ID factor.

[chillin]

Huron, well, i cant comment much on him, the one time i faced him i wiped out the squad he was with, then my landraider shot him to death (lascannon to the face anyone?).

 

That's gonna leave a mark.

[the jeske]

on the huron thing . he is a very overcosted asp champion with a flamer. warp time or not , he has a limited number of attacks and he still has to wound stuff[str 4] . so he wont kill another meq HQ . he puts 2 wounds on a guy before saves with power weapon and if he uses his fist he dies either because of attacks or instant death. a one use 120+ character is bad . considering that if someone really wants anti horde meta , there are pms and csm with flamers [up to 3 flamer templates that are scoring , so you need to take them anyway] makes huron as bad as it gets[whats nothing new considering chaos specials].

 

I know where the problem with the termis is . they cost too much 5 guys with icons and fist etc cost almost as much as 2 termicid squads.

 

havocks are bad since the day they lost tank hunter [lost their only viable set up of 4 auto canons] and should never be used.

 

generally you discover the sad truth behind codex chaos sm.

[Smurfalypse]

on the huron thing . he is a very overcosted asp champion with a flamer. warp time or not , he has a limited number of attacks and he still has to wound stuff[str 4] . so he wont kill another meq HQ . he puts 2 wounds on a guy before saves with power weapon and if he uses his fist he dies either because of attacks or instant death. a one use 120+ character is bad . considering that if someone really wants anti horde meta , there are pms and csm with flamers [up to 3 flamer templates that are scoring , so you need to take them anyway] makes huron as bad as it gets[whats nothing new considering chaos specials].

 

I know where the problem with the termis is . they cost too much 5 guys with icons and fist etc cost almost as much as 2 termicid squads.

 

havocks are bad since the day they lost tank hunter [lost their only viable set up of 4 auto canons] and should never be used.

 

generally you discover the sad truth behind codex chaos sm.

 

And the codex bashing begins!!

[Prot]

I've been farting around with the list a bit and was able to shrink a few squads, and get a 5 man squad of possessed in a rhino on top of what I already have. Then I thought why? Another non-scoring unit that is completely unpredictable?

 

Yes the horde meta is annoying but I'd say lately I face Orks mostly, then it would be some marine variant; possibly White Scars, B.A., Ultra, etc. So I have to be careful, I can't water down the list entirely.

[minigun762]

Let us know the results of your next game or two Prot.

[Raulmichile]

I think havocs can work too, just not at 1500, pts are just too limited. Even at 1650 they can wk, but 1500 is just alittle too tight.

I like HB havocs (w/ 1 AC thrown in for xtra punch vs rinos).

 

Maybe, but the nice thing about Havocks is you can always shrink the squad.

I ran the numbers in another threat but 6 Havocks with 3 AutoCannons will out perform 2 Obliterators against AV10-12 consistently for the same point cost.

 

 

Indeed. That's why I always use 5 or 6 Havoks with 3 or 4 autocannons and 1 or 2 Oblis to complement each other; normally leaving my predator at home collecting dust.

[Smurfalypse]

I've been farting around with the list a bit and was able to shrink a few squads, and get a 5 man squad of possessed in a rhino on top of what I already have. Then I thought why? Another non-scoring unit that is completely unpredictable?

 

Yes the horde meta is annoying but I'd say lately I face Orks mostly, then it would be some marine variant; possibly White Scars, B.A., Ultra, etc. So I have to be careful, I can't water down the list entirely.

 

I use possessed almost religiously (derkka derkka, im a word bearer player). I am a fan of the possessed, they arnt great, they usually dont shine, but they do have some good qualities. The first is they soak fire for some reason, for a unit that supposedly is subpar in melee people sure do focus on them, the second is they can take a hit and keep on trucking. I have found that if you want to bring possessed and actually have them do something you better be ready to bring the entire family. In my 1500 pt games i run no less than 10, at 1850 i run no less than 20, 2000+ i run 40. This may seem like madness but trust me, it strikes fear into any horde army you face, MEQ dont care about them until you roll up power weapons or rending, then all of the sudden the blood drains from their faces and that crap eating grin they had a moment before goes away :jaw:

 

Point is, as someone who owns 50+ possessed (yes i use them all in apoc games), they just dont work in small numbers. If you want to bring them, then you have to almost swarm with them. Which is hard to do via the pt cost of the models, but it is doable.

 

They do wreck orks though, i use my 10 man possessed units to screen other units from charging (namely terms or other on foot units i have around) make it so they have to go through the possessed before they can get to anything else. If you manage to roll up feel no pain the orks really really suffer vs them, Icon of nurgle is very good vs orks too, slannesh is a waste and tzeentch is good vs the nob biker unit but nothing else really.

 

Just my two cent and love of possessed that drew me to write that for ya :jaw:

[minigun762]

Icon of nurgle is very good vs orks too, slannesh is a waste and tzeentch is good vs the nob biker unit but nothing else really.

 

Icon of Khorne is probably the best overall for them. All they do is hit things in HtH, so having an extra swing helps them accomplish that basic task.