Odd rules/fluff question

[ripath]

Alright I know that technically a void shield doesn't count as an invuln save, but according to fluff would a psycannon ignore it? yes I know that only against the rear armor of a knight or warhound is it even possible to penetrate but I'm just curious. On the subject I'm almost done building my knight class titan to use wth my knights.

[Prathios]

I don't think anyone can give you an answer to this for sure but I would bet 99.9% of my 40k collection that void shields would stop a psycannon round. Those shields can stop almost anything, and holy bullets really aren't designed for this.

[jeffersonian000]

The problem is that what psycannons fire has changed from when they first appeared to what they currently are today. When I first started playing 40k with Rogue Trader, psycannons shot "bolts" of energy to bypassed force fields and armour. Later on, an author decided that psycannons fired bolts in the same way as bolters, allowing for Psycannon Bolts to be purchased as war gear; these bolts could still bypass barriers and armour, yet now only due to their "special" nature. By the release of 3rd Ed and the Daemonhunters codex, psycannons have been reduced to glorified heavy bolters with some special rules, while their ammo is now available for use in standard bolter weaponry.

 

Personally, when I look at a Grey Knight (be they powered or terminator) holding a Psycannon, I see cables running from batteries and the Knight's armour to the Psycannon, but no ammo feed or magazine (such as we see with their Stormbolters). This leads me to believe that the intention has always been that Psycannons were psyker weapons that fired packets of psychic energy that bypass everything but the mind of the target, hence that special rules we see. However, there exists both the wargear called Psycannon Bolts and the recent fluff that specifically states that Psycannons are based on bolter technology.

 

Which means, in the end, that while Psycannons should be able to and at one time did ignore Void Shields, they unfortunately do not in the current version of the game.

 

SJ

[Eltnot]

By that same thinking though SJ, wouldn't they not effect a warhound anyway?

I imagine it would be quite tough to hit the pilot of such a warengine successfully when you have to pass through all that armour and shielding. Otherwise most Imperial titans would be easily stopped by an Eldar Psycher using Mind War.

 

P.S. Thanks for the trip down memory lane :)

[jester_prince]

I think recent fluff has pycannons as bolts that are pyccicaly charged by someone before the battle, or charged by the weilder just before its fired. I agree its a shame they have been dubbed down to glorified bolter rounds with runes on. I personaly dont think that they would peirce void sheilds, atleast not in their current form, void shields didn't exist when the codex was published (as far as i can be sure), and untill the next forgeworld book is released I doubt we will know for certain, also titan being shot down by small arms fire, i cant see forgeworld letting that happen rules wise even if it was fluffy possible.... mabey a demon the size of a titan, id would love a titan sized demon :) sorry stupid off topic train.

[Brother Tuditanus]

By that same thinking though SJ, wouldn't they not effect a warhound anyway?

I imagine it would be quite tough to hit the pilot of such a warengine successfully when you have to pass through all that armour and shielding. Otherwise most Imperial titans would be easily stopped by an Eldar Psycher using Mind War.

 

P.S. Thanks for the trip down memory lane :)

 

Eh.. Depends on how you view titans... In some references, and in the Eisenhorn trilogy, it views the Titan as having sentience able to be felt pyshically.. So technically... You could just hit the titan, and affect it's own sentience/machine spirit, and probably (if the psycannon was big enough) burn out the crew linked to it by the M.I.U.. I know all machines, according to the Cult Mechanicum have Machine Spirits, but Mechanicum and several other sources of fluff represent the God Machines and Knights as having something higher than average...Something aware, even if crude. So, by that thinking it should be able to affect it.

 

Though, I'm going to say that, it'd take a comparable size weapon to take it out. I doubt a GK with a psycannon would really hurt a titan, but a dreadnought with one? Entirely probable!

[Vodunius]

When I first started playing 40k with Rogue Trader, psycannons shot "bolts" of energy to bypassed force fields and armour.

 

Have you got a source for that? The only RT fluff for psycannons I've seen is Realms of Chaos: Slaves to Darkness wherein its a bolt pistol that fired psyk-out bolts..

[jeffersonian000]

I first encountered Psycannons in Space Marine (the epic game that became Titan Legion, then Epic 40k, and now Epic Armageddon), where there was a Warlord Titan variant known as a Psi-Titan that mounted a titan-scale Psycannon. The Psycannon in this incarnation was supplied "ammo" from a domed Sanctum on the Titan's back where a group of powerful psykers would focus their combined power to fuel the cannon as well as other effects. This special style of Psycannon did ignore Void Shields, as it produced packets or "bolts" of psychic energy that only affected the minds of the target's crew; however, even then armour could be created that would defeat even this kind of attack using the same style of crystal matrix used in psychic hoods and force weaponry. There was even specific fluff mentioning that man portable versions existed that used the mind of one psyker (the firer) to fuel and forms its smaller psychic "bolts". The Space Marine game came out at the end of RT 40k, and therefore predates 2nd Ed. Titan Legions was the 2nd Ed update that predated 3rd Ed, and so on. The one point to understand for consistency is that the Grey Knight Psycannon looks identical to the Psi-Titan weapon of the same name, down the cabling, muzzle, and rounded housing.

 

Which only pints towards a concept that was dropped as the game evolved, and which has no real barring on why the current version of the Psycannon has no effect on the current version of Void Shields.

 

SJ

[- 7eAL -]

I have always agreed that psycannons operate using psychic energy, fueled and charged by psykers - including the Grey Knights.

 

Psycannon bolts such as those used in common bolters and heavy bolters are inscribed and then psychically charged, though what sort of psyker can be spared to charge every box of ammunition is questionable - obviously not a powerful or useful one. In all likelihood these bolts have an expiry date: the psychic charge on the bolts is a residual energy, and will wear off with time.

None of this is a problem if the person using them happens to be a psyker however, because an Inquisitor Lord who is a psyker would be able to charge bolts for him or herself as part of a daily preparation or exercise routine.

05:45: wake up. first cleansing.

06:00 mild stretching and exercises. simultaneously charge bolt clips 1 & 2.

06:30 wash, change. simultaneously charge bolt clip 3. use waterproof bag if necessary.

07:00 breakfast, read news, check mail. simultaneously charge bolt clip 4, remember not to mix up the bolt clip for the fork ...

Finally, Psyk-out bolts and Psyk-out grenades such as those used by the Culexus assassin are different things again, since the Culexus is a psychic null and would drain the psychic energy from a box of psycannon bolts faster than he can finish the juice carton provided in his rations.

As far as we know, they probably contain compounds similar to the narcotic drug Spook, which stimulates psychic activity. A compound with sufficient chemical similarity to Spook but bearing vastly different biochemical effects would instead disrupt psychic activity. Simple biochemical inhibition.

[ripath]

I first encountered Psycannons in Space Marine (the epic game that became Titan Legion, then Epic 40k, and now Epic Armageddon), where there was a Warlord Titan variant known as a Psi-Titan that mounted a titan-scale Psycannon. The Psycannon in this incarnation was supplied "ammo" from a domed Sanctum on the Titan's back where a group of powerful psykers would focus their combined power to fuel the cannon as well as other effects. This special style of Psycannon did ignore Void Shields, as it produced packets or "bolts" of psychic energy that only affected the minds of the target's crew; however, even then armour could be created that would defeat even this kind of attack using the same style of crystal matrix used in psychic hoods and force weaponry. There was even specific fluff mentioning that man portable versions existed that used the mind of one psyker (the firer) to fuel and forms its smaller psychic "bolts". The Space Marine game came out at the end of RT 40k, and therefore predates 2nd Ed. Titan Legions was the 2nd Ed update that predated 3rd Ed, and so on. The one point to understand for consistency is that the Grey Knight Psycannon looks identical to the Psi-Titan weapon of the same name, down the cabling, muzzle, and rounded housing.

So hypothetically a grey knight titan could be equiped with a d strength weapon that ignores invuln saves and void shields? drool...........

[Eltnot]

So hypothetically a grey knight titan could be equiped with a d strength weapon that ignores invuln saves and void shields? drool...........

Hypothetically a Psi Titan weapon would. Hypothetically Grey Knights don't use titans. They never have or will ever as their job does not require the use of such items.

 

This isn't to say that the Grey Knight titan that I have seen didn't look cool and full kudos to the person/s that built and painted it, but it doesn't belong in the fluff.

[Brother Tuditanus]

So hypothetically a grey knight titan could be equiped with a d strength weapon that ignores invuln saves and void shields? drool...........

Hypothetically a Psi Titan weapon would. Hypothetically Grey Knights don't use titans. They never have or will ever as their job does not require the use of such items.

 

This isn't to say that the Grey Knight titan that I have seen didn't look cool and full kudos to the person/s that built and painted it, but it doesn't belong in the fluff.

 

See, my issue therein is you, as far as I know, have no fluff or official sources to back you up. Just your own conjecture and supposition. No, GK wouldn't 'own' a titan.. No SM do... But it is more than likely one would enter service with them, etc... It may not be written in the fluff by a game designer, but your denial of it in such absolute terms is excessive. If you want to get further, some factions of the Ad-Mech would consider Psy-Titans a Heresy, so Psy-Titan shouldn't exist.

 

Besides, the =][= does whatever it feels like and leaves the rest of the Imperium confused most of the time.

[jeffersonian000]

See, my issue therein is you, as far as I know, have no fluff or official sources to back you up. Just your own conjecture and supposition. No, GK wouldn't 'own' a titan.. No SM do... But it is more than likely one would enter service with them, etc... It may not be written in the fluff by a game designer, but your denial of it in such absolute terms is excessive. If you want to get further, some factions of the Ad-Mech would consider Psy-Titans a Heresy, so Psy-Titan shouldn't exist.

 

Besides, the =][= does whatever it feels like and leaves the rest of the Imperium confused most of the time.

 

Except that the Divisio Telepathica of the Adeptus Mechanicus is known to field Psi-Titans, and are a division that has the same authority and resources as the Divisio Militaris and the Divisio Mandati. It is also known the the Divisio Telepathica is based in the Sol system (the same home as the Grey Knights). No one is stating that Grey Knights get to use Psi-Titans; we are only saying that Psi-Titans do exist in the 40k universe per fluff and past editions of the Epic rule set. We are alos stating that Grey Knights are more likely to call upon the services of the Diviso Telepathica in times of need than they are any other Militaris or Mandati legion.

 

Also, one point to note is that Psi-Titans are Warlords with only two weapons, and one moust be a Psycannon. Personally, in an Apocalypse game, I would just field a Reaver with no carapace weapon and a Laser Blaster that counts as a Psycannon just to reduce any push back from other players. If they are cool with the concept of the Psi-Titan, I'll play one using these rules:

 

http://www.tanksandtrolls.co.uk/40KGrey%20Knight%20Titan.htm

 

(Note: I'd have to have the rules for this guy spell checked, but that's all cool)

 

SJ

[Brother Tuditanus]

I think you over-reacted.. I am agreeing with the fact that it is possible/plausible. But FACTIONS != Divisio.. Factions in the =][= mean Almathian, Thorian, etc... Factions in Ad-Mech bend to philosophy, not purpose, and yes there are some!

 

Sorry if that comment came off wrong!

[Eltnot]

See, my issue therein is you, as far as I know, have no fluff or official sources to back you up. Just your own conjecture and supposition. No, GK wouldn't 'own' a titan.. No SM do... But it is more than likely one would enter service with them, etc... It may not be written in the fluff by a game designer, but your denial of it in such absolute terms is excessive. If you want to get further, some factions of the Ad-Mech would consider Psy-Titans a Heresy, so Psy-Titan shouldn't exist.

 

Besides, the =][= does whatever it feels like and leaves the rest of the Imperium confused most of the time.

I just said that Grey Knights don't have titans....

 

You agreed with me....

 

I'm having trouble seeing how I'm an issue.

 

Titans are the sole domain of the Adeptus Mechanicus. Inquisitors can requisition them, but they don't belong to the Inquisitor. Space Marines of any kind including Grey Knights are not allowed access to such weapons to prevent a buildup of power and potentially a second Horus Heresy. This is mandated in Imperial fluff. I didn't say Psi Titan weaponry didn't exist, I just said that there are no Grey Knight Titans. If you're going to attempt to discredit me, at least properly read what I wrote.

 

Now back to discussing Psi based weaponry and titans.