Kurgan the Lurker Posted July 11, 2009 Share Posted July 11, 2009 http://theprimaryclone.blogspot.com/ So, now, as the temperature pushes into the thirties, the cats are flaked out like discarded draught-excluders wishing their fur coats were un-zippable, and Roddick and Federer fight it out to the bitter end, I’m girding my loins for the next big project. Yes, folks, it’s Prospero Burns (Mongomery’s less-well known brother). Stop me if you’ve heard this, but, originally, I was going to tackle the Thousand Sons side of the deal, and Graham was going to handle the Space Wolves. The reason for this - and I really do understand that the following revelation is such a heretical statement that Eisenhorn might have to come and shoot me through the lungs - is that I don’t really like Space Wolves. All right. Stop yelling. Stop it. Stop. I KNOW, okay? I know. Let me explain. I think the Space Wolves are great. They are a great, vivid, visceral element of 40K, great to play, great to collect. But for use in fiction they are, to me, too on the nose. They too obviously resemble the source of their inspiration. Think of it this way: I could write a novel about a chapter of space marines, who originated on a tough, unforgiving world of high plains and grassy savannahs. The chief way of life was as drovers, driving the million-animal herds of gigantic, and often very dangerous, grox across continents. This work bred men who were tough, weather-beaten and wily, relentless, dogmatic, reflective, but mercurially fast. They evolved quick wits and cunning, and quick reflexes, but they could also sit in the saddle for days, biding their time. They were almost empathically connected to their loyal steeds. They knew how to chase, hunt, defend the herd, bring down a big bull. And the very toughest and most promising of these drovers were selected by the mysterious warriors, who lived in their isolated fort on the isolated mountain, to be inducted into their ancient order of space marines. Sounds pretty reasonable, doesn’t it? Sounds like a decent basis for a chapter, right? Now what if I said the chapter was called the Six Shooters? And that their armour design included chaps, a bandana and a ten gallon hat? Oh, and spurs? And they were famous for their trademark ‘two-bolt-gun’ holsters? You see what I mean? The inspiration is fine. The Thousand Sons are Aztecs. The Blood Angels are goth vampires. The Imperial Fists are Romans. The White Scars are a mongol horde. The Iron Hands are robots. The Ultramarines (and, hell yeah, the Iron Snakes) are Greeks. The fact is that all of them have taken the point of inspiration and run with it. They’ve put the background idea through some kind of creative filter to make it both richer and less obvious. But the Space Wolves are exactly what they appear to be, with no filter and no remove, which makes them giant fun on the gaming table, and a giant pain in the arse in a novel. So anyway... I finally suggested to Graham that I should take the Space Wolves, because it would force me to find a way into them. I’ve already seen the work he’s doing on the Sons, and, oh my god, it’s mouth-watering. His book, which will be called A Thousands Sons (one of those instances where the legion name is so good, you don’t need to invent a better book title), is going to be packed with great ideas. We’re knocking stuff back and forth, and a momentum is building. For my part, I’m filling my workspace with all things Norse and Viking, and Icelandic and barbarian. You wouldn’t believe the sources I’m going to. I want the Space Wolves to be ABSOLUTELY the Space Wolves all of you out there love, AND YET something you’re not expecting; something that’s gone through a filter; something that makes you all go “Christ in a longboat! I have never thought of them like that!” Tomorrow, I may buy a bearded axe. If not tomorrow, then sometime this week. I kid you not. Sometimes, physically handling a key prop is the best way to unlock an idea. And I’ve already checked that the Rochester Armoury (that fine institution that, long time readers may remember, sold me a pilum on Good Friday), has something Danish and two-handed in my size. More on the subject of axes and space vikings in coming weeks, I’m sure. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/173162-dan-abnett-on-the-burning-of-prospero/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Mage Posted July 11, 2009 Share Posted July 11, 2009 Well thats cool. I dont nessecairily agree with the man, but I can see his point. Atleast were being written by the best. :P Thank you Kurgan. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/173162-dan-abnett-on-the-burning-of-prospero/#findComment-2046860 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DragonPup Posted July 11, 2009 Share Posted July 11, 2009 Huh, Abnett is a fan of the Simpsons. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/173162-dan-abnett-on-the-burning-of-prospero/#findComment-2046870 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valerian Posted July 11, 2009 Share Posted July 11, 2009 Well thats cool. I dont nessecairily agree with the man, but I can see his point. I definitely see his point, and to a large degree I do agree with him. I've been a Space Wolves guy since late RT, but I still think they went a little over-the-top with the whole Viking thing in the second edition codex. Like Mr. Abnett says, there was no "filter". So, I just use my own filter in how I model my Wolves, and tone it down a little myself. On a separate note, Ultramarines are supposed to be Greek? Uh, I guess I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure they are Roman; specifically Roman Republic. When I think of Ultramarines I don't think of Greek at all; not even Spartan-Greek. Am I missing something here? Maybe it's hidden in one of those HH books that I don't read. Regards, Valerian Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/173162-dan-abnett-on-the-burning-of-prospero/#findComment-2046898 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Megalodon Posted July 11, 2009 Share Posted July 11, 2009 On a separate note, Ultramarines are supposed to be Greek? Uh, I guess I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure they are Roman; specifically Roman Republic. When I think of Ultramarines I don't think of Greek at all; not even Spartan-Greek. Am I missing something here? Maybe it's hidden in one of those HH books that I don't read. Regards, Valerian I know what you mean, I always thought the Thousand Sons were based on ancient Egypt. :( Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/173162-dan-abnett-on-the-burning-of-prospero/#findComment-2046934 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max_Dammit Posted July 11, 2009 Share Posted July 11, 2009 Dont see where he thinks where all viking =\ I dont see SW with horned helmets, and i certainly dont see them pillaging and looting villages, and killing the population, SW are the exact opposite to that. Ok we like axes and the cold but who wouldn't :( Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/173162-dan-abnett-on-the-burning-of-prospero/#findComment-2046941 Share on other sites More sharing options...
hendrik Posted July 11, 2009 Share Posted July 11, 2009 perhaps we should send him some of our written stories, so he could get a better picture of us? only in death, i'm looking at you;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/173162-dan-abnett-on-the-burning-of-prospero/#findComment-2046978 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyrannicide Posted July 12, 2009 Share Posted July 12, 2009 I totally agree with Abnett, though his sources for the inspiration of the original legions may be a little off (I suspect he got into drinking too much ale, as he stated that he likes to get his hands on related items) his point is still valid. I'm looking forward to the Burning of Prospero. He'll develop the Space Wolves more than you could imagine and deliver the fans what they want most, have faith. ^_^ Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/173162-dan-abnett-on-the-burning-of-prospero/#findComment-2047064 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valerian Posted July 12, 2009 Share Posted July 12, 2009 On a separate note, Ultramarines are supposed to be Greek? Uh, I guess I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure they are Roman; specifically Roman Republic. When I think of Ultramarines I don't think of Greek at all; not even Spartan-Greek. Am I missing something here? Maybe it's hidden in one of those HH books that I don't read. Regards, Valerian I know what you mean, I always thought the Thousand Sons were based on ancient Egypt. :lol: Oh yeah, that too. Aztecs? Where did he get that from? I guess that reafirms why I don't read the Black Library junk, not only is the writing rather poor, the authors don't even know the background material. Valerian Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/173162-dan-abnett-on-the-burning-of-prospero/#findComment-2047101 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skalver Posted July 12, 2009 Share Posted July 12, 2009 On a separate note, Ultramarines are supposed to be Greek? Uh, I guess I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure they are Roman; specifically Roman Republic. When I think of Ultramarines I don't think of Greek at all; not even Spartan-Greek. Am I missing something here? Maybe it's hidden in one of those HH books that I don't read. Regards, Valerian I know what you mean, I always thought the Thousand Sons were based on ancient Egypt. :huh: Oh yeah, that too. Aztecs? Where did he get that from? I guess that reafirms why I don't read the Black Library junk, not only is the writing rather poor, the authors don't even know the background material. Valerian I think he is referring more to the motivations and behaviour of the chapters than to their imagery, the thousand sons are all about ritual, human sacrifice, worship of sorcerous power and the appeasment of demons and gods, yes their imagery is more egyptian but if you are writing them then you care more about their motivations than you do about their imagery. Similarly while much of the Ultramarines iconography and appearance is undoubtedly roman their behaviour is certainly much more greek, they see themselves as an army that defends the civilians and whose purpose is to defend and promote equality and peace much more than the roman conquerer mentality, they may look roman but they think like greeks. As Abnett says, a lot of the chapters draw from many differing sources, they have that filter to make them not obviously drawn from one or the other but he seems to be mentioning how the chapters think and not how they look which matters more to an author. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/173162-dan-abnett-on-the-burning-of-prospero/#findComment-2047140 Share on other sites More sharing options...
SamaNagol Posted July 12, 2009 Share Posted July 12, 2009 1k Sons are Egyptian. Smurfs are CLEARLY Roman. Is Dan Abnett a retard? I'm amazed people who work for the company have such a loose grasp on the imagery. The only Viking thing about the SW is that they drink beer, tell sagas and use runes. That's about it. It's things like this which annoy me about the studio in general. They can make such off hand throwaway nonsense remarks. It's that type of attitude that got Squats eaten by space bugs. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/173162-dan-abnett-on-the-burning-of-prospero/#findComment-2047141 Share on other sites More sharing options...
dragon950 Posted July 12, 2009 Share Posted July 12, 2009 I think its all based on how you look at individual races and their divergent codexs. The eldar remind me more of the egyptians personally. I agree that the space wolves do share some of the mannerisms of the vikings, but they take alot of traits from the more barbaric europeans before the roman empire collapsed. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/173162-dan-abnett-on-the-burning-of-prospero/#findComment-2047144 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Mage Posted July 12, 2009 Share Posted July 12, 2009 I think he is referring more to the motivations and behaviour of the chapters than to their imagery, the thousand sons are all about ritual, human sacrifice, worship of sorcerous power and the appeasment of demons and gods, yes their imagery is more egyptian but if you are writing them then you care more about their motivations than you do about their imagery. Similarly while much of the Ultramarines iconography and appearance is undoubtedly roman their behaviour is certainly much more greek, they see themselves as an army that defends the civilians and whose purpose is to defend and promote equality and peace much more than the roman conquerer mentality, they may look roman but they think like greeks. As Abnett says, a lot of the chapters draw from many differing sources, they have that filter to make them not obviously drawn from one or the other but he seems to be mentioning how the chapters think and not how they look which matters more to an author. Thats why they are republic roman instead of imperial roman. Believe it or not but there was a time when the armies of rome existed only as a defense force for southern italy. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/173162-dan-abnett-on-the-burning-of-prospero/#findComment-2047177 Share on other sites More sharing options...
OnlyInDeath Posted July 12, 2009 Share Posted July 12, 2009 perhaps we should send him some of our written stories, so he could get a better picture of us?only in death, i'm looking at you;) Oh yeah, I'm going to just throw my dribble before the best that BL has to offer (Tho I do love me some Sandy Mitchell). While I cant agree with his inspiration on the chapters, as others have stated before, I am truly interested to see where he takes the wolves. My take on them actually is a little more akin to the "Conan" version of barbarians mixed with the norse influence: superhuman might combined with superhuman intellect, making a combination that's hard for a "civilized" man to understand, moreless stop. But again, that's just me. I would definately love to see what Abnett comes up with, as he is a wonderful read in all of his ventures. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/173162-dan-abnett-on-the-burning-of-prospero/#findComment-2047179 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted July 12, 2009 Share Posted July 12, 2009 Holy Crap, this has to be a really weird thread. Dan attaches his own imagery to the Chapters, he doesn't need to run by the standard norms to write a book. The themes are for the models. And what isn't to love about scary as all get out raiders who pillage and burn in the name of the Emperor? Come on! And the Thousand Sons have had lots of Aztec-ness to them. Thinking they need to have obsidian weapons and worship snake gods is a lack of imagination on the readers part. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/173162-dan-abnett-on-the-burning-of-prospero/#findComment-2047210 Share on other sites More sharing options...
clanfield Posted July 12, 2009 Share Posted July 12, 2009 dan's the man take a chill pill guys he hasnt let us down yet , i understand where hes going with the charicterisations of the chapters ,hes just genralising i for one am looking forward to this book as much as the new codex Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/173162-dan-abnett-on-the-burning-of-prospero/#findComment-2047604 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Rao Posted July 12, 2009 Share Posted July 12, 2009 Yup, can't wait to see the man's take on our beloved pups. Like all revolutionary ideas, this could be earth-shatteringly cool and completely change the way I view the SW, or it could be a steaming pile of turd that completely misses the point. Only time will tell. He's talking about this baby right here, btw: http://www.therochesterarmoury.co.uk/catal...;products_id=61 It does sort of show that he can be, erm, "economical" with the truth, though, cuz that might be Danish and two-handed, but it sure as hell ain't a bearded axe. But hey, "bearded axe" sounds cool, and cool words are why we pay this man! LR Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/173162-dan-abnett-on-the-burning-of-prospero/#findComment-2047637 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schertenleib Posted July 12, 2009 Share Posted July 12, 2009 There is a weapon known as a bearded axe. The lower point of the axe blade extends down the haft of the weapon about 6-8 inches giving it a "beard-like" appearance. Sorry in my other life I'm a medieval re-enactor. :blink: Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/173162-dan-abnett-on-the-burning-of-prospero/#findComment-2047824 Share on other sites More sharing options...
OnlyInDeath Posted July 13, 2009 Share Posted July 13, 2009 There is a weapon known as a bearded axe. The lower point of the axe blade extends down the haft of the weapon about 6-8 inches giving it a "beard-like" appearance. Sorry in my other life I'm a medieval re-enactor. :blink: It also is flat across the bottom of the blade, which strengthens the blade (it was typically used for farm use, and adapted for use in the battlefield). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/173162-dan-abnett-on-the-burning-of-prospero/#findComment-2047849 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Mage Posted July 13, 2009 Share Posted July 13, 2009 And it was king of the battlefield for a long time until they started fielding professional archers. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/173162-dan-abnett-on-the-burning-of-prospero/#findComment-2047915 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Durfast Spiritwolf Posted July 13, 2009 Share Posted July 13, 2009 The men Edward III used to great effect weren't professionals - just enthusiastic amateurs :lol: Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/173162-dan-abnett-on-the-burning-of-prospero/#findComment-2048169 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Rao Posted July 13, 2009 Share Posted July 13, 2009 There is a weapon known as a bearded axe. The lower point of the axe blade extends down the haft of the weapon about 6-8 inches giving it a "beard-like" appearance. Sorry in my other life I'm a medieval re-enactor. :D Yes, I know; that's why I was able to say that that thing was not a bearded axe :lol:. The bearded axe is basically the staple weapon of Vikings, as it, besides caving in enemy skulls, allowed in ship boarding, functioning like a long hook that could be used to pull the enemy ship closer. In that respet Abnett is right in mentioning it as a good inspirational prop. Too bad the axe he's buying ain't one. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/173162-dan-abnett-on-the-burning-of-prospero/#findComment-2048189 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skalver Posted July 13, 2009 Share Posted July 13, 2009 Yes, I know; that's why I was able to say that that thing was not a bearded axe :D.The bearded axe is basically the staple weapon of Vikings, as it, besides caving in enemy skulls, allowed in ship boarding, functioning like a long hook that could be used to pull the enemy ship closer. In that respet Abnett is right in mentioning it as a good inspirational prop. Too bad the axe he's buying ain't one. Assuming of course that the axe you listed is the one he is buying. It would be quite likely that that company has plenty weapons that they don't link on the site that someone living nearby could have access to. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/173162-dan-abnett-on-the-burning-of-prospero/#findComment-2048196 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prathios Posted July 13, 2009 Share Posted July 13, 2009 I gotta tell ya, I was surprised at first to see Dan mention Aztecs until I thought about it and hes got a good point. From an attitude and mannerism standpoint they are more like Aztecs than Egyptians. Though they pull their names from more Babylonian, Sumerian, and others (like Ahriman being Zoroastrian.) However I am very excited that he isn't a space wolf fan. The extra work he has to put into the book because its not his cup of tea means it is likely to be fantastic. I bet you by the time hes done he either hates them more or loves them. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/173162-dan-abnett-on-the-burning-of-prospero/#findComment-2048322 Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyeslikethunder Posted July 13, 2009 Share Posted July 13, 2009 1k Sons are Egyptian. Smurfs are CLEARLY Roman. The battle for the abyss does make references to the Ultramarines being based on the Greeks and the Imperial fists being roman. Saying they are the philosophers of the marines and the like. So this is being written into the Horus hersey series whether it was true in the past it looks like its becoming true now. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/173162-dan-abnett-on-the-burning-of-prospero/#findComment-2048340 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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