Huron (Red Corsairs) vs Abe (Black Legion)

[Prot]

I thought I'd start a new topic on this theme. Basically I was going away from World Eaters and getting back to undivided and decided to try out a Huron themed list.

 

Someone responded to my revised army list post with this question:

 

I may have to do that. I'm starting to rethink the whole thing. I might go straight to Black Legion instead. We'll see. But I like your alternative with the troops because I need them.

 

I feel funny saying this being a BIG BL fanboy, but why would you have to rethink and go to BL instead ?? they are 2 very simular armies (except BL is a legion and even more awesome :lol: ), there is nothing you could do w/ BL that you can't do w/ RC's . It just come down to which one's fluff and paint scheme you like betterk.

 

 

Well the truth is that yes, there is the 'obvious' differences. One is black, one is red/black. One has Abaddon, one has Huron.

 

In playing styles you could say the would be similar.... but for style's sake, I see Huron being the 'gen x' Chaos lord. That is to say, I have thought of incorporating new Space Wolves into the army, and for Raptors, I was thinking of using Raven Guard that have left the Imperium to join Huron's mission.

 

Whereas I see Abaddon using more Legion 'content' if you will. More older resources, and less new ones. So he would probably have a great ability to get Death Guard, World Eaters, etc. to join his quest of the week. NOT to say that Huron could not, or should not have those resources. It is just how I see they might differ.

 

Also there IS rumour (nothing new I know) but it is becoming persistent rumour that Legions are getting rules. Now how would it feel to start firing off some Red Corsair painted squads, to see I am left with a 'dated' codex that everyone and their Hamadraya wants to see replaced?

 

So I would sum up the different types of differences as follows:

 

- Huron better for medium sized games/Abe better for large scale games (1500= medium?)

- Black Legion is ancient and would probably be afforded the most cordial (if possible) relationship with other Heresy Legions of old.

- Red Corsairs probably access 'newer' technology. Huron, I would have to believe, recruits from the Imperium itself, as well as new blooded gene seed material. Again although I'm sure Abaddon recruits too, it's probably not on the top of his 'to do' list.

 

Anyone agree/disagree with that assessment?

 

For "NEW" rules I'd love to see something like the following:

 

- First and foremost, I think Black Legion and Red Corsairs should be similar to the Ultramarines. Especially Black Legion, they have the history to back it up. But there ARE disadvantages to that.

 

- So Black Legion becomes the foundation of all Undivided lists. From there we could do what the Ultra codex did. Basically a character allows for a different force org, or rules, or modifications to strategy.

 

Here's my example for Huron and the Red Corsairs:

 

Huron is the modern day example of how Chaos continues to exist in the modern struggle for dominance over the Imperium. As such, taking Huron Blackheart as your HQ will confer the following rules on a Red Corsair's army:

 

1. All 'Chaos Space Marine' squads may receive the Mark of Undivided at no charge.

[This would be indicative of Huron's charismatic way of bringing new blood into the fold]

 

2. All 'Legion's of Legend' (LoL) specific squads are limited to 0-2. (IE: Deathguard, Night Lords, etc)

[This limitation would indicate that Huron has the ability tap the talents of LoL's, but this resource is somewhat limited.]

 

3. An army that uses Huron as its HQ may select the Landraider Crusader option from Codex: Space Marines.

[The Landraider Crusader is not a massive advantage, however, it goes far to show that by enlisting the disgruntled 'faithful' to his cause, he would have the odd opportunity to capitalize on modern elements of Imperial hardware.]

 

4. Huron should have a very eclectic band of faithfuls that would be representative of different elements of not only chaos but loyalist tactics! I'm thinking of a special squad referred to as Huron's Hellions.

[ Huron's Hellions would act as an elite faithful. They could have very mosaic backgrounds leading to incredible flexibility on the field. I'm thinking of the Codex Marine equivalent (Sternguard). It would be nice if he could use them as a troop, but I think the keep them special, and as truly 'special ops' they should be his Retinue. The abilities of this unit should be extremely flexible, possibly flanking, etc.]

 

So what do you think? Ideas, or criticisms? I didn't add anything specific about Huron, because the topic is more Legion related, rather than , 'Huron needs new stats'. Does anyone want to take a crack at Black Legion???

[Black Talon]

I don't think BL would be too difficult too do, or even the other legions. I think several options are valid!

 

My example is Ruinous Marks!

 

Example, Give a Chaos Lord Khornate Mark -> not mark of Khorne, a different mark, and only Khornate Infantry can be taken, but several CC bonuses for you army! Nurgle gets bonuses to resilience, Slaanesh to speed and Tz to saves. Undivided is slightly harder.

 

Guys like Alpha legion, Iron warriors and the other special legions (not dedicated to one god, not really undivided either) are where it gets tougher.

 

Rengades can have a special mark maybe? Gives access to more recent Imperial Tech.

 

Still, Abe and Huron are THE chaos lords of their time really.

[chillin]

Well the truth is that yes, there is the 'obvious' differences. One is black, one is red/black. One has Abaddon, one has Huron.

 

In playing styles you could say the would be similar.... but for style's sake, I see Huron being the 'gen x' , I have thought of incorporating new Space Wolves into the army, and for Raptors, I was thinking of using Raven Guard that have left the Imperium to join Huron's mission.

 

Whereas I see Abaddon using more Legion 'content' if you will. More older resources, and less new ones. So he would probably have a great ability to get Death Guard, World Eaters, etc. to join his quest of the week.

 

- Huron better for medium sized games/Abe better for large scale games (1500= medium?)

- Black Legion is ancient and would probably be afforded the most cordial (if possible) relationship with other Heresy Legions of old.

 

OK , Being the guy that sparked this, of course I have to respond ^_^

Well your "obvious" differences are the 2 things I already pointed out, paint scheme and fluff.

If you want to use SW's and RG models and paint schemes with the chapter badges and imperium icons crossed out in red paint (old skool RC's) then definately use RC's (as to my point, why switch to BL ?)

As for Abby's ability to get DG, WE's, etc to join black crusaides, remember the WE's, DG etc. to join up and co-operate for the crusaide, but they are not BL, they are still WE's DG, etc. This "BL is full of strays, rejects, & malcontents, from DG, T'sons, WE's, etc" is new to this fluff poor dex. Black legionaries may worship khorne, TZ, whatever, but can trace their geneseed back to Horus, the were NEVER WE's, DG, or memebrs of any other legion.

As far as game size, I have been playing BL for more then a decade, I have never used Abby. So my army wks fine at 1500 pts or less. Fluffwize my BL army has very little to do with Abby. They come when he calls for a black crusaide or something, but other then that they are on their own. I think that's how most BL players play it.

My origional point was that there is nothing you could do with BL that you couldn't do with RC (as far as on the table top). As far as fluff/paint scheme, there IS stuff you can do with RC's you can not to w/ BL and remain fluffy (such as use SW & RG models & incorporate them into your fluff). From the stuff you have written you obviously really want to do RC's... so why would you switch to BL ?

[Prot]

Guys like Alpha legion, Iron warriors and the other special legions (not dedicated to one god, not really undivided either) are where it gets tougher.

 

Rengades can have a special mark maybe? Gives access to more recent Imperial Tech.

 

Still, Abe and Huron are THE chaos lords of their time really.

 

That's why I think the 'character' will be iconic in defining the Chapter/Legion. The mark system you mention is somewhere between 3rd edition Chaos and 3rd edition Space Marines where they had the ability to not take "marks" of course but strategic advantages/disadvantages. I'd still rather see a character defining the chapter and leave a 'generic' list available to anyone who truly wants to do their own thing.

 

On the subject of defining Huron and his Corsairs in contrast to Abe and the BL's:

 

As for Abby's ability to get DG, WE's, etc to join black crusaides, remember the WE's, DG etc. to join up and co-operate for the crusaide, but they are not BL, they are still WE's DG, etc. This "BL is full of strays, rejects, & malcontents, from DG, T'sons, WE's, etc" is new to this fluff poor dex.

 

Well I totally agree. When I was making up the Huron army rules above I just thought to myself what is REALLY the difference between these two guys? And the short version is I really feel that Abaddon has history, and he has a connection to many of those original legions during a time that will most likely never repeat itself. The one moment in the game's history that Chaos was on teetering on the lip of victory. I think in game terms and rule's it could be said that Black Legion SHOULD have more access to those types of squads.

 

I do understand what you're saying though about the 'Black Legion' Khorne dudes not being actual Berzerkers. In my 'fantasy' Huron rules, it is something I would define as a difference between Huron and Abe. But like I said, although a technical drawback, Huron would have his own advantages. BUT since we're talking about current day codex :jaw: rules.......

 

My origional point was that there is nothing you could do with BL that you couldn't do with RC (as far as on the table top). As far as fluff/paint scheme, there IS stuff you can do with RC's you can not to w/ BL and remain fluffy (such as use SW & RG models & incorporate them into your fluff). From the stuff you have written you obviously really want to do RC's... so why would you switch to BL ?

 

Well I guess I'll be honest with you, the reason is two fold:

- I think playing as THE Legion that was there is a cool idea. The problem for me is, my last 2 previous marine armies were Black. Not a terrible thing, but I already had a playable Black Legion army. So that's why I wanted to try something different.

 

- This is a weird one, but I have to admit this is THE big reason I'm thinking BL instead of RC's: The rumours are getting fairly persistent about a potential Legion style Codex.

 

Sure, we don't know if it compliments the existing one, or... kicks it in the marble bag. BUT you know what would really crush me? If I put all this work (which is already well under way but I could switch Legions if I *had* to), and just as I get well into painting.... a new codex comes out. The new codex basically states new rules for Legion play, and if you want to play Corsairs, too bad, they aren't defined anymore.

 

That would crush me. I have a zillion Chaos figs, and have done many chaos armies, and still have about 8K in Iron Warriors, painted. But I just bought another 2000 pts worth and I'd hate to have the scenario I just described happen. And I believe it is very likely. I mean in 3rd edition there was no mention of Huron! You can go from hero to zero with GW pretty fast.

 

So that's my secret fear..... and I could really see it happening. But they do have a cool fig for Huron (IMHO) and that might buy him a paragraph in the new codex. :huh:

[Theis]

I understand you'd be irritated by being mid project, or by recently having completed this project to find the army invalidated. I don't think it's that likely. Sure, there's potential for that, but bear with me as I run through some worst case scenarios, and then some not so worst case scenarios.

 

You've got about 8k of IW painted. If I recall correctly, you've got some World Eaters lying about as well. Sounds like you've got at least one legion waiting in the wings for that codex, should it ever actually manifest. What's the earliest that could conceivably happen anyhow? A year from now perhaps? In the absolute worst case scenario, one wherein the "new" rumored legion 'dex completely invalidates our current one, you could probably field something from what you have already. Not exactly the desired outcome, but not a catastrophe either.

 

Personally, I don't believe that's likely. We've got three potential scenarios with the rumored 'dex;

 

First, since we're already discussing it, a total replacement of the current 'dex. While it's been much maligned here and elsewhere the current 'dex was all about renegades really. Renegade armies have become a staple of chaos forces. It would be a hugely short sighted of GW to not leave room for a generic chaos war band, as that's what we've all been playing for the last couple of years (Speaking in broad generalizations there). Worst case there, you play generic chaos (Red Corsairs perhaps) with no traits and or attributes or silliness brought in by adding a legion specific special character, or reactivate your Iron Warriors, while you figure out what you want to do. I am, of course, assuming that any total replacement chaos 'dex, will be similar to what we've seen from smurf and IG, as well as what it looks like Space Wolves will be getting. I also expect, with the recent fluff appearances, Huron will continue to hang about, and not repeat his disappearing act.

 

Second, it's a supplemental 'dex, in addition to what we have already. In that case, it's going to be a small 'dex, that supplies us with rules, traits, perhaps alternate force orgs, for our legion of choice. In that case, you're set. Keep playing Red Corsairs, and reactivate your Iron Warriors when you feel like playing something different.

 

Third, each legion gets its own codex, similar to Dark Angels, Blood Angels, or Space Wolves. Again, you're set. Because we'll all be waiting years for our favorite legion to get its book.

 

The point of all this is, you've got options. There's not a scenario with the new 'dex, which is still just a rumor, not even a tremendously substantial one, wherein you don't have something you could bring to the table the day after it's released. It may not be your most recently painted, or best painted army, but you'd have something to play. Not that I have an opinion on how well painted any of your figs are. Obviously I haven't seen them. I just know I like the stuff I painted yesterday a lot better than the stuff I painted a year ago, and I'm just allowing for a similar potential with your armies.

 

My whole point really devolves to, "do what you're going to have the most fun with now." There's no telling what can happen in between now and when the next 'dex for CSM shows up.

 

From a newer player's perspective, I started playing 40k with our current 'dex. I liked the idea of a renegade chapter when I started. As I read more and learned more, I found out that I liked the original legions. They've got history. The only way to incorporate their units into my existing army was to call it all a "Black Crusade war band." Cool enough, it works for a first army. Thankfully, I have enough units of berserkers lying around that I have the core of a World Eaters army, that I'm working on now anyhow, because I like what I've seen of Angron, Khârn, and Skral in the HH series, and I'm hopeful that I'll be able to merge them right into the legion 'dex, should it actually ever appear.

 

That's all just my opinion though. Hopefully, somewhere in it, you find something that helps you.

[chillin]

- This is a weird one, but I have to admit this is THE big reason I'm thinking BL instead of RC's: The rumours are getting fairly persistent about a potential Legion style Codex.

 

. BUT you know what would really crush me? If I put all this work (which is already well under way but I could switch Legions if I *had* to), and just as I get well into painting.... a new codex comes out. The new codex basically states new rules for Legion play, and if you want to play Corsairs, too bad, they aren't defined anymore.

That would crush me. So that's my secret fear..... and I could really see it happening. But they do have a cool fig for Huron (IMHO) and that might buy him a paragraph in the new codex. <_<

 

I don't think that would happen, RC's were in C:csm 3.5, and in 4.0 had more press in the dex then any other army besides BL, And like you said they have gone to the trouble of making a fig for him. As for the (potiental) new dex making them not defined...they are not defined now (as in they have no rules, they are just a paint scheme and a bit of fluff) so you would lose nothing if they were not defined in a future dex. Even if they get no pic or mention in the new dex (which I find quite unlikely) the RC's would still be a recognized army, they can't make them go away. Hell, Mayal worshipping son's of malace were never even in 40k and the only breif mention of mayal was 20 yrs ago (in FB at that) and they can't even make mayal go away. There will never be a "if you want to play chaos, it must be a legion" dex, how could they enforce it if they did ? RC aren't going anywhere, and will from this point on be a recognized army (by 40k players). Worst case, you would just have to "build" huron from the options for chaos lord (which hopefully will have MUCH more options then now), just give him PF, combiflamer etc.

Lets just hope that if/when we get a new dex that they don't even let Thorpe in the room when they are writing it.

[Rain]

One thing that I don't think anyone has touched on is that even if there will be a legion dex, it's quite possible that Black Legion will not be included as generally they are seen as being represented by the vanilla chaos rules (which is why they had no special rules in 3.5, they just had Abaddon and all of the normal options). So even if there will be a Codex: Chaos Legions it will actually most probably just be the 4 cults, and if not it will be the 8 divergent legions but I seriously doubt it will include Black Legion.

 

Also it is a very long way away. Dark Eldar and Necrons are both apparently coming up before it and those have been in the pipeline well over a year as far as I remember and there is still no evidence of C:CL in development as far as I'm aware so it will be at least 2 years but honestly I doubt they will write it at all, it was probably just an off the cuff remark to get the angry Chaos players to be quiet.

[chillin]

it's quite possible that Black Legion will not be included So even if there will be a Codex: Chaos Legions I seriously doubt it will include Black Legion.

 

I can hope can't I ? ;)

I know BL hasn't had special rules since "Slaves to Darkness"

[Moonsword]

Your paint scheme is worth a special rule all by itself, man, but I'm a sucker for black and gold done right and worn with pride. Besides, Abaddon is the only Chaos leader I can think of who's ever said "Buzz off, I'm busy" to the Chaos gods and made it stick.

 

...for style's sake, I see Huron being the 'gen x' Chaos lord.

 

So where Abaddon is Coca-Cola Classic, Huron is the New Coke of Chaos? I figured he'd at least manage diet caffeine free, and I don't even like him that much.

[Rain]

I can hope can't I ? :huh:

I know BL hasn't had special rules since "Slaves to Darkness"

 

Don't worry, I'm right there with ya hoping against hope there will even be a Legion codex :lol:

[the jeske]

but BL did have special rules in 3.5.

[Prot]

I really think the 'consistent' way to do it is like the Marine Codex.

 

Black Legion is the prime example of a large, undivided Legion that embodies the essential characteristics of a large, Chaos fighting force that retains ultimate flexibility. I personally think the Red Corsairs are another good example, but an offshoot that is worth a minor deviance.

 

The 'other' Legions need their own books.

 

For what it's worth back in the day Pete Haines did actually contact some of us on the Iron Warrior email list ran by myself and Phil (now a Warseer mod) so you can check with him if you don't believe me... but Pete did ask us what our thoughts were on a possible way to handle the Legions and the new codex.

 

The thing that always stuck with me is he did NOT like the idea of a single Chaos codex anymore that described ALL legions. I remember that clearly. He seemed to be of the mind that he saw the 'unique' Legions deserving of their own book. And I don't mean JUST World Eaters, and the obvious chaos powers, he even meant some of the 'undivided' Legions that had very different operating methods.

 

Obviously Pete is gone.... and I'm sure his desires are buried under a stack of rhino's at GW, but I'm just saying this because at the time Pete was a top designer, and he had true intent to flesh the Chaos legions/chapters out more.

 

I think if we had an "undivided" book, it could NOT contain true World Eaters/E.C.'s/1K sons, etc; because it reminds me of comparing Black Templars to Ultra.... they just operate far too differently.

 

Going back to the SM Codex, if we had Black Legion as a standard, and then one or two characters per Chapter/Legion that operated *similarly* then we could have a similar situation. Is there anything wrong with that?

 

You could have an iconic character for: Iron Warriors, Night Lords, Black Legion, Word Bearers, Red Corsairs and a few chapters that need to fill the gaps, like Soul Drinkers.... and I don't know what you do with Alpha Legion (the book Legion left us hanging a lot).

[chillin]

if we had Black Legion as a standard, and then one or two characters per Chapter/Legion that operated *similarly* then we could have a similar situation. Is there anything wrong with that?

 

You could have an iconic character for: Iron Warriors, Night Lords, Black Legion, Word Bearers, Red Corsairs

 

I hate the idea of having a legions special traits be dependent on a SC. Why/how would/could Abbadon or Kol Badar or Honsou, or whoever led that legions forces in every battle ? That also means that if you want to play X legion you don't get to design/build your own character, he is chosen for you, and if you don't use him, you don't get that legions ablities. I have NO desire to have to use abby in order to play my BL army (b/c then it is no longer "my" army). I know that might not be the best example, b/c most likely BL will remain 'nilla.

But I'm sure ther are plenty of DG players out there that don't want to have to use Typhus in order to get DG rules. I think it should be more like in 3.5, you want to play DG, here's want you can use, here's what you can not use, here are you advantages, here are your disadvantages.

But let the players design their own characters, my undivided chaos lord and his army has fluff going back years, and I'm sure I'm not the only one.

[Gree]

if we had Black Legion as a standard, and then one or two characters per Chapter/Legion that operated *similarly* then we could have a similar situation. Is there anything wrong with that?

 

You could have an iconic character for: Iron Warriors, Night Lords, Black Legion, Word Bearers, Red Corsairs

 

I hate the idea of having a legions special traits be dependent on a SC. Why/how would/could Abbadon or Kol Badar or Honsou, or whoever led that legions forces in every battle ? That also means that if you want to play X legion you don't get to design/build your own character, he is chosen for you, and if you don't use him, you don't get that legions ablities. I have NO desire to have to use abby in order to play my BL army (b/c then it is no longer "my" army). I know that might not be the best example, b/c most likely BL will remain 'nilla.

But I'm sure ther are plenty of DG players out there that don't want to have to use Typhus in order to get DG rules. I think it should be more like in 3.5, you want to play DG, here's want you can use, here's what you can not use, here are you advantages, here are your disadvantages.

But let the players design their own characters, my undivided chaos lord and his army has fluff going back years, and I'm sure I'm not the only one.

 

It's called ''counts as'' Just give your chaos lord the same weapons and call it counts as. You don't need to repaint the model or anything.

[chillin]

It's called ''counts as'' Just give your chaos lord the same weapons and call it counts as. You don't need to repaint the model or anything.

 

I don't want Abby that "counts as" my character. I don't want my chaos lord to cost 240 pts, I don't want my lord in termi armor, I don't want do have to take a LR to make my lord effective, I want my lord to fly b/c he has been blessed by Tz, my character can't kill a WL or chop a LR in half, my character is not nearly as powerful (or costly) as Abby.

 

Like I said in an earlier post I'm sure there are lots of DG players that want to use N. DP's, not have to have Typhus "counts as" their lord, the same can be said for players of each legion I'm sure. Having legions (or chapters for that matter) special rules tied to SC is just not the way to go, too restricting, too much spam of special characters.

[Askari]

Counts as is just a lazy ploy by GW to be able to make shortcuts in their rules to pretend like they're allowing us to customize our armies after they take away their traits. It's basically GW saying "suck it up and keep paying us" I can't think of any other gaming system that tells you to use counts as.

 

The special character system is terrible. It makes it so generic HQ's suck and a few special characters are spammed. I dare you to find a person that prefers the special character system to the legion rules and chapter trait system.

[chillin]

The special character system is terrible.

 

But I said is so much more eloquently, and used so many more words .

[Gree]

It's called ''counts as'' Just give your chaos lord the same weapons and call it counts as. You don't need to repaint the model or anything.

 

I don't want Abby that "counts as" my character. I don't want my chaos lord to cost 240 pts, I don't want my lord in termi armor, I don't want do have to take a LR to make my lord effective, I want my lord to fly b/c he has been blessed by Tz, my character can't kill a WL or chop a LR in half, my character is not nearly as powerful (or costly) as Abby.

 

 

Then don't Black Legion is genertic enough

[chillin]

It's called ''counts as'' Just give your chaos lord the same weapons and call it counts as. You don't need to repaint the model or anything.

 

I don't want Abby that "counts as" my character. I don't want my chaos lord to cost 240 pts, I don't want my lord in termi armor, I don't want do have to take a LR to make my lord effective, I want my lord to fly b/c he has been blessed by Tz, my character can't kill a WL or chop a LR in half, my character is not nearly as powerful (or costly) as Abby.

 

 

Then don't Black Legion is genertic enough

 

Aaaarrrggghhh :P Hardly the point, you are proposing that chaos legion special rules be tied to SC and then use "counts as".

Forget the generic BL, what about IW or WE, or DG players that didn't want to use the SC GW chose for them in order to get their legions special rules ? What about the spamming of SC ?

I guess I used too many words, see Askari's simplified codex..."the special character system is terrible"

[Prot]

Guys, before we get carried away with 'counts as' debates.... It was just a thought I had because as we know, GW likes to try to maintain consistency.

 

It is MY opinion that if we do not have iconic characters, then that means we probably won't get 'real' Legion/Chapter specific rules. It just seems to be the way GW is going. The way it seems to go this last year or two, you basically have a list that technically 'allows' you to make different army types based on your background (Craftword) (IE. Eldar) -or- you get the "Iconic Character" system.

 

When it comes to some armies, I don't see why there can't be more than one option for a character! I agree Abe is too expensive.... but what if there was Abe and a version of 'generic Black Legion Uber Commando' to pick from?

 

I like the idea of their being generic rules for undivided armies (ala Ultramarines) then if you want to really get specific, iconic character(s). Otherwise we'd need a FULL book for each Legion/Chapter, and you're kidding yourself if you think GW will spend that much time on lowly Chaos.

 

My example is: You want to play a small Black Legion game... you use the base Undivided rules which COULD be used by... Word Bearers, Night Lords, Red Corsairs, etc. THEN in more significant games, you can further specialize the army with a character that brings changes to the table. Huron does something like I wrote in my first post... it doesn't mean you have to take him. But he means more this way than a stupid warp time, and a hand flamer!!!

 

There simply is not enough time, or probably enough inclination on behalf of GW to actually flesh out all major chapters/legions of chaos. Even some of the beloved chapters of legend for loyalists got left out of the system (Iron Hands, Blood Ravens, etc).

[chillin]

It is MY opinion that if we do not have iconic characters, then that means we probably won't get 'real' Legion/Chapter specific rules.

 

When I want YOUR opinion, I will tell you what it is. B)

In C:csm 3.5 the rules for each legion were put on 1-2 pages each. Why would we now need a FULL book for each legion.

Before that each legions rules were in a short IA artical in WD, the actual rules were less then 1 page, the rest was fluff (GW needs to get 40k players buying WD again some how). So why now would the only 2 options be A- tied to SC's (which sux on many levels) or B- a whole dex for each legion (which would and should never happen) ?

[Prot]

It is MY opinion that if we do not have iconic characters, then that means we probably won't get 'real' Legion/Chapter specific rules.

 

When I want YOUR opinion, I will tell you what it is. B)

In C:csm 3.5 the rules for each legion were put on 1-2 pages each. Why would we now need a FULL book for each legion.

Before that each legions rules were in a short IA artical in WD, the actual rules were less then 1 page, the rest was fluff (GW needs to get 40k players buying WD again some how). So why now would the only 2 options be A- tied to SC's (which sux on many levels) or B- a whole dex for each legion (which would and should never happen) ?

 

Because of history. You say in 3.5 chapter rules were on separate pages. I agree, and that is my point. In Eldar codex of the same generation, the same was true of Ulthwé, Alaitoc, etc. Again, Space Marine codex gave 'traits'. The Eldar codex gave up entirely and just gave various choices that allowed you to sort of, kind of, pose as a Craftworld of your choosing... I don't want that for us.

 

This isn't the way GW operate with the 'new' crew in the studio. So that's why I went with their current day standard. I don't see them deviating from that right now.

 

Like I said, I'm just having fun here. I still like my own ideas for Huron, and as much as I do want to see rules for every chapter, it won't happen IMHO, unless iconic characters have something to do with it.

 

Each mark can have its own rules... why not? This would allow a lot of flexibility stilll and would echo back to the days of 3.5

 

However, another thought is to create a Legion/Chapter Type of 'Squad'. And then depending on your Legion/Chapter rules, it would effect how you use these squads.

 

An example would be, we all know 'undivided' is largely lumped into one pile as far as GW is concerned. BUT what if we had a Night Lords TYPE of squad (IE. jump packs/or infiltrate?) a Word Bearers TYPE of squad (free icon, or summoning rules?) and then your chapter is made up of a variety of these squads OR if you choose Legion 'X' you have advantages in taking these squads, but perhaps are restricted from others.

 

Even so I still like the idea that a Character brings something to the table besides his personal stats. I really think it's indicative of the charisma, leadership, and strategy of your commander.

 

(why do I feel like this topic has totally become off topic? :) )

[the jeske]

another words we get a BL dex only with more "specials" great idea. Its not like we dont play BL all almost exclusivlly now . :)

[Prot]

Jeske, do you mean.. 'in other words'?

 

I don't think that would be the goal if that's your meaning. Probably my easiest comparison would be the old Space marines (3.0) vs. the current one.

 

That is to say, the old one gave you a few traits, which sucked, and really didn't reflect the changes. The new one, by comparison lets a "White Scars" fan take K'sarro Khan and he -dynamically- changes the army.... wouldn't you agree? Do you think a White Scars army is the same style as an Ultra army? Personally I don't.

 

I wished to take the idea a step further with Legion/Chapter squads. That is to say, a Night Lord troop choice definitely would not operate the same as a Black Legion troop choice. I think this is something we could have with Chaos. Let's be honest, some of those old Legions are ancient! There's a strong possibility they operate with other forces at times. BUT if you took an 'iconic' character for your Legion chapter, it would lock you into those specific squads (matching your Legion), and naturally removing some choices to prevent over powering, and blending Legions that just don't mix. (Recalling Khorne and Tzeentch for instance, just don't play nice with each other.)

 

That's it in a nutshell. It was just a thought. I understand people won't always like my silly ideas, but I like to think it has possibilities to go the route I described, basically because I *strongly* feel GW will never give us ALL the Legion/Chapter specific codices we want... never. They can't even do it for Marines which are a cash cow for GW.

[the jeske]

The new one, by comparison lets a "White Scars" fan take K'sarro Khan and he -dynamically- changes the army.... wouldn't you agree? Do you think a White Scars army is the same style as an Ultra army? Personally I don't.

they are not going to make special characters for all legions , they never do more then 6 per faction and to cover the big and small games and considering some factions have specials that are only for big games[and even then they suck] like abadon or tyfus they would have to make rules for 10+characters.

 

Do you think a White Scars army is the same style as an Ultra army?

considering all it take is to take the same army and paint it blue ? or are you asking about game play? game playwise khan is superior in every way to a biker cpt , there is absolutlly no reasone to take normal cpts/chapter masters etc when you can take pedro /vulkan /khan for almost the same points.

 

I wished to take the idea a step further with Legion/Chapter squads. That is to say, a Night Lord troop choice definitely would not operate the same as a Black Legion troop choice.

and make them what , elite ? then they are suck because normal cult units are better no matter what they do [unles they really go over the top with rules for legion squads] . troops ? still one squad of NL will make your army .... a BL one because the rest is going to be taken out of the cult units[or other legion units ] pool . more squads means 2 pages [art+rules] for each legion and we end up with the 3.5 dex , what again they want to , because with that they would have to agree with players that the 4th ed dex was bad.

 

 

BUT if you took an 'iconic' character for your Legion chapter, it would lock you into those specific squads (matching your Legion)

another words Gw turns me in to a noob and makes the army for me . after 20 years of gaming I have to play the way GW tells me too [because they cut out all the tier 2 armies and when you have an option to play tier 1 or something that doesnt work most players settle for tier 1] or I can use some other codex and counts as , if I want to.