New 5th edition list

[wargame insomniac]

Hi

 

My name is James and I have some general questions about how to kit out my CSM sqauds. I also need some specific advice vs Dark Eldar.

 

I have played W40k since Rogue Trader but am fairly new to 5th edition having had just 2 practice games @ 1000 points. I always played vanilla SM and Valhallan IG, although back in 2002 I was drawn to both Space Wolves and Iron Warriors.

 

This is my army list that I played through Eye of Terror campaign, playing mainly friendly games down my local club amongst friends rather than more competitive tournies. I fielded mainly undivided units with just one marked unit:

Chaos Lord with powerfist & combi-melta

Dreadnought with twin heavy bolter and DCCW

6 Raptors with AC with twin lightning claws

2*6 man CSM squads with lascannon/autocannon and plasmagun

2*9 man CSM squads with heavy bolter/missile launcher and plasmagun

2*9 man CSM squads with AC with power fist and 2 flamers/meltaguns and Rhinos

Noise Marine Havoc Squad with 4 blastmasters

 

I deliberately did nt max out on heavy support choices or take Obliterators as was a friendly list for games between friends.

 

Now to update to 5th edition!! First off I will lose the Noisemarine Havocs as can no longer take with 4 blastmasters. Secondly I know that I will have to chop and change the CSM squads so that I can field 5* 10 squads. So far I have come up with follwoing revised list:

 

Chaos Lord with single lighning claw and combi-melta

Dreadnought with twin heavy bolter and DCCW

6 Raptors with AC with twin lightning claws

1*10 man CSM squads with lascannon and plasmagun

2*10 man CSM squads with heavy bolter/missile launcher and plasmagun

2*10 man CSM squads with AC with power fist and 2 flamers/meltaguns and Rhinos

 

Some specific questions for you experienced Warsmiths:

 

1) when should I upgrade CSM squad to include Aspiring Champion? Definitely both the rhino mounted assaulty sqauds. What about the shooty squads?

2) Similarly when should I take icon of Chaos Glory?

3) I used to love my 6 man anti tank CSM sqauds. But it feels like too many wasted bolter shots now minimum sized unit upped to 10- should I strip out the heavy weapons from CSM squads and pay the premium for Havocs squad?

4) Now my precious Raptors have lost `hit and run' should I change their role to add a couple of special weapons?

 

I am NOT looking for major surgery to the list- I can't afford large number of new purchases although I do intend to treat myself to a Chaos Vindicator in a few months. But for now I have to make best use of my limited choices. So how do I tweak the above for a general face all-comers 1500 points list.

 

Finally should I change anything to face Dark Eldar next Monday?

 

Thanks in advance for any help you can offer to get me up to speed with 5th edition and new CSM Codex.

 

Cheers

 

James

 

PS: I meant to say I am trying to be true to Iron Warriors with no Marks of Chaos Gods or cult troops. I might get some 'Zerkers in future as I did enjoy that bit from Storm of Iron but for now Chaos Undivided.

[chillin]

1) when should I upgrade CSM squad to include Aspiring Champion? Definitely both the rhino mounted assaulty sqauds. What about the shooty squads?

2) Similarly when should I take icon of Chaos Glory?

3) I used to love my 6 man anti tank CSM sqauds. But it feels like too many wasted bolter shots now minimum sized unit upped to 10- should I strip out the heavy weapons from CSM squads and pay the premium for Havocs squad?

4) Now my precious Raptors have lost `hit and run' should I change their role to add a couple of special weapons?

 

I am NOT looking for major surgery to the list-

Thanks in advance for any help you can offer to get me up to speed with 5th edition and new CSM Codex.

 

Wow, your list sux, it looks like someone tried to use a C:csm's 3.0 or 3.5 list in 5th ed ^_^ :)

I'm an old timer too (3rd ed. b4 chaos had a 3.0 dex), did most of my playing/tourines w/ C:csm's 3.5, and let me tell you that you can not "modify" a 3.0 or 3.5 list to this dex/ed. You must start from scratch (not with models, but with how you build/think about your army).

-

As to your list:

No 1 LC, 2 LC's or a D. weop, lords take wings always.

Forget dreads, new dex makes them unplayable (sux, I know).

Drop all hvy weops from csm squads (yea, I know, I used to use them too. Trust me they won't wk now). CSM's are all about the close-med. range fire fight, and assault, special weops only.

As for raptors, take 5 with flamers (no champ), or a squad of 8-10 loaded with champ. Do not throw 6 raptors into CC.

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As to your Q's

1- you have to take 10 man squads now (2 B effective), with assault weops (flamers and/or meltas) always take an asp champ. A 2 plaz squad can get by w/out a champ, as rapidfire is their bread & butter. The "shooty" squad as you remember it (5-6 csm's with plaz and a hvy weop is gone)

2- When should you use IoCG ?.. only when you want you troops to never run :P .

3- Yea, like I said, those 5-6 man plaz & hvy weop squads are gone. Chaos hvy weops come from oblits now ( termicide meltas for anti-tank also). IMO the only way to use havocs is HB havocs (then only in 1700+)

4- Only way to use raptors in a IW's type list is 5 man, no champ, 2 flamers or 8-10 raptors, LC's or PW champ, 2 flamers. Termicide is just some much better at burning tanks that using raptors is pretty much a waste of pts.

-

I don't think you will have to buy alot of new models, just resquad the ones you have. You could put your ML's, AC's, HB's from your old "shooty" squads into a unit of havocs (LC's are right out), it's not optimal but will let you use your models and make a decient jack of all trades (anti-inf/lite vehicle) havoc squad. Looks like you will have to buy some rinos. And eventually some oblits would be good. If you don't have enough spec. weops for your csm's squads, i think the spec weop sprue cost @ 3-4 $ for 1 each, melta, flamer, plaz. So 1 or 2 of those and you are set. Do not buy a vindi... rinos & special weop csm's and oblits will serve you much better.

Seeing as you have limited models right now, You can only do pretty much what I suggested (do not go in with the list you posted, unless you are useing the old dex too, you will get killed). The changes I suggested will make a good "all comers" list and sould do well against DE or anyone else.

-

Welcome back old timer, hope this helps.

[Hellios]

How to kill DE... stick as many auto-cannons on anything as possible these are just great for taking down the skimmers that most DE players use and once you have the DE on foot most should be easy to mow down.

 

If you have the ability to deck out havocs with auto-cannons that should work and the bolter shots can actually damage DE vehicles :D.

 

Other units to watch out for...

 

jet bikers as these are fast regardless, however just pure number of shots should take em down.

DE lord (can be mounted on a bike or maybe in a skimmer) this can have a 2+ inv save that is lost after its failed the first time.

Wych squads, just destroy the transport then gun them down as they have no save from shooting, but a 4+ inv in CC.

Incubi these guys have a 3+ and will be with the lord (if he takes them) take down the transport and these guys should fall behind the rest of the army and then you can kill them at your pleasure :D

Talos, unless they portal (in which case try and sit on the portal) this is slow and you should have plenty of time to destroy it.

Special characters, to many to go in detail but as a general rule don't let them close.

 

You might want to sit in terrain with your fire-support as long as its got gd fields of fire. Champions and MoCG are good because DE use(or can) lots of Ldship based attacks and you don't want to run away. You might want to try and keep your rhinos safe until you've taken down a few of the skimmers (otherwise you will get popped before you make it to objectives if thats what you end up playing.)

 

Basically the key to defeating DE is to first slow them down (if your given a chance) and then blow them to hell and if they have to engage you in CC get them to do it in bits because a CSM squad can most likely defeat a single depleted DE squad 1 on 1

[Jazzbeaux]

Chaos Lord with single lighning claw and combi-melta

Dreadnought with twin heavy bolter and DCCW

6 Raptors with AC with twin lightning claws

1*10 man CSM squads with lascannon and plasmagun

2*10 man CSM squads with heavy bolter/missile launcher and plasmagun

2*10 man CSM squads with AC with power fist and 2 flamers/meltaguns and Rhinos

 

I have also gone through various Codex changes - have got the original Realms of Chaos at home! Anyway using what you have got I would go for some flexibility.

 

HQ

Chaos Lord with single lightning claw and combi-melta

 

Elite

Dreadnought with twin heavy bolter and DCCW

 

Troops

2*10 man CSM squads with AC with power fist and 2 flamers/meltaguns and Rhinos

 

1*15 man CSM squads with 2 plasma guns

 

Fast

 

Heavy

1*7 man Havoc squad with 2x Heavy Bolter, 2x Missile Launcher

 

(can't fit your Lascannon, nor one Plasma Gun in).

 

Against Dark Eldar you shouldn't need the Lascannon anyway. The Lord should really be mounted with one of the Rhino Squads but you would need to change the size and then the weapons fit. The Dreadnought is high risk, but if a friendly game should be fine - just keep him on the flanks away from the rest of your army. I have found the big CSM unit is very resilient, especially if walking across the table.

 

Sam

[Hellios]

Against Dark Eldar you shouldn't need the Lascannon anyway. The Lord should really be mounted with one of the Rhino Squads but you would need to change the size and then the weapons fit. The Dreadnought is high risk, but if a friendly game should be fine - just keep him on the flanks away from the rest of your army. I have found the big CSM unit is very resilient, especially if walking across the table.

 

Sam

 

I just have to disagree with the dreadnought (its problems are well known), however having it on its own won't (or shouldn't) work against DE as they will either destroy it easily as it has no support or most likely what I would do if the dread was off on its own ignore it and bulldozer into your troops then sending on of my transports to pop it.

[Jazzbeaux]

I just have to disagree with the dreadnought

 

You are right, it is the weak link in the army. However if that is the figures he has got then he has to make the best of it. Its 105 points which might shoot down a Raider or two, or might explode as Dark Lances slice it up. Depends on Dark Eldar army, scenario, deployment, and scenery.

 

Sam

[wargame insomniac]

Thanks guys. I knew would be tough to update my list from 3rd/4th edition to new dex. But had nt realised quite how many of my units were sub-optimal. I need to read these comments thoroughly and sit down and work out what else I can get hold off and assemble ready for next week.

 

Will be a shame to wave goodbye to both dread and raptors as they were amongst my favourite units in old army...

 

:huh:

 

Cheers

 

James

[Hellios]

Thanks guys. I knew would be tough to update my list from 3rd/4th edition to new dex. But had nt realised quite how many of my units were sub-optimal. I need to read these comments thoroughly and sit down and work out what else I can get hold off and assemble ready for next week.

 

If you like raptors keep them they may not be in most top tournament lists or the best choice vs DE but I would say they are not unplayable. Most problems with the new dex comes with things like dreadnoughts (depending on rules interpretation) and possessed and spawn being random (although you get some people who will swear by them) and the generic lesser and greater daemons (who are just poor compared to daemons of old and those in the daemons codex).

 

Then you have things like lords and sorcerers who most people will say are for the points just inferior to daemon princes (the only disadvantage is you can't hide the DP in a unit.)

[Rain]

1) when should I upgrade CSM squad to include Aspiring Champion? Definitely both the rhino mounted assaulty sqauds. What about the shooty squads?

2) Similarly when should I take icon of Chaos Glory?

3) I used to love my 6 man anti tank CSM sqauds. But it feels like too many wasted bolter shots now minimum sized unit upped to 10- should I strip out the heavy weapons from CSM squads and pay the premium for Havocs squad?

4) Now my precious Raptors have lost `hit and run' should I change their role to add a couple of special weapons?

 

1.) You should always take an AC with a powerfist as there is not longer such a thing as a "shooty squad" the best way to take normal CSM's is now as rhino-borne hand to hand squads with special weapons. A champion is absolutely mandatory here as he greatly increases your close combat kill potential against MEq and allows your squad a fighting chance against wraithlords, carnies, and other such beasties.

 

2.) This is a matter of debate, but I never take them, only time I remember this backfiring was when a squad got their rhino popped and got pinned right next to the objective

which was also hard cover, kind of frustrating, but these things happen, in most cases however I find LD10 to be enough.

 

3.) Again a matter of debate, but I find obliterators to be much much better than havocs, and I've used both.

 

4.) Raptors are honestly pretty bad at the moment, almost anything they can do, a rhino-borne marine squad can do better due to ubergrit and rhinos protect you from small arms.

 

Some other general stuff, chaos lords are a bit underpowered at the moment (do a search there was a topic discussing this in detail) so a prince is pretty much always better, and as people have said, dreads are totally unplayable. Although I haven't played against DE in a long time I used to play DE and as the codex hasn't changed since then I can tell you that what you should do depends on his list. If he is playing a webway list you need to kill whoever is carrying it stat (ask him if he is taking a webway portal), this is usually a dracon on a bike (at least what I used), otherwise you need to shoot down the raider carrying his archon and incubi as these need to be shot, assaulting them is suicide as they are all I5 and up and with power weapons that are either S4 or wound on 4+ no matter your T.

 

The warriors if he takes them should be assaulted as they are generally used for shooting, and although they are I5 they are S3 T3 making for quick kills with CSMs. Wyches should definitely be shot, bolters work wonders here as they have 6+ saves when not in combat, but this can be hard to do if their raiders are still up. Honestly given the new rules DE seems like a luck army as a few good 4+ saves on the raiders can mean almost an autowin especially with a wych cult or an autolose if you have to footslog due to blown up raiders.

[minigun762]

1.) You should always take an AC with a powerfist as there is not longer such a thing as a "shooty squad" the best way to take normal CSM's is now as rhino-borne hand to hand squads with special weapons. A champion is absolutely mandatory here as he greatly increases your close combat kill potential against MEq and allows your squad a fighting chance against wraithlords, carnies, and other such beasties.

 

I'm not sure I agree 100% of the time.

Dual Plasmas do not REQUIRE a Powerfist Champ.

Not to say its not important or useful, but its not required for a squad that shouldn't be assaulting.

True, your squad might be charged, but you can always camp inside a Rhino if you're really worried.

[Rain]

1.) You should always take an AC with a powerfist as there is not longer such a thing as a "shooty squad" the best way to take normal CSM's is now as rhino-borne hand to hand squads with special weapons. A champion is absolutely mandatory here as he greatly increases your close combat kill potential against MEq and allows your squad a fighting chance against wraithlords, carnies, and other such beasties.

 

I'm not sure I agree 100% of the time.

Dual Plasmas do not REQUIRE a Powerfist Champ.

Not to say its not important or useful, but its not required for a squad that shouldn't be assaulting.

True, your squad might be charged, but you can always camp inside a Rhino if you're really worried.

 

Yes, it has to do with the fact that hand to hand is almost inevitable in 5th edition, so although true, dual plasmas will probably not see you charging, it will see the opponent charging, and possibly with one of the aforementioned beasties that only a PF can really kill. And rhinos are pretty lightly armored to be counted on as a camping spot. All that said I guess you're right if it's a small squad used for strafing or something, but I am assuming he would use such a squad for objective holding (as I imagine an IW would forgo plagues) in which case a PF would be very needed, course we all know what they say happens when you assume :lol:

[chillin]

Yea, I would love to put a PF champ in each one of my squads, but when those pts get short, I damn sure going to leave the champ out of the dual plaz squad and not the melta and/or flamer squads. I've been using plaz squads w/ out champs for awhile now and it wks pretty good. They do alot of damage with those rapid firing plaz and bolters so the squad that attacks them will be 1/2 dead anyway. And 10 csm's hacking away can hold there own, even w/out a champ. Try it as an expermient a few times and see what you thnk, might supprize you.

Would I put a champ in there if I could ? Yes. But if the pts aren't there, Plaz, bolters swords and headbuts wk quite well on there own really.

Not saying it's an ubar squad but it is effective.

[kogeninja]

I'd like to second what chillin says above - rolling 16 bolter shots and 4 plasma shots when in rapid fire range has done me no harm either. Well, apart from the odd occasion where the plasma gun goes *BOOM* -_-

My next few games I'll be trying the melta/flamer combo instead though a sa prelude to a full assault charge. Then I'll decide which I likes best.