500 Guardsmen

[DavidKits]

As the title of this post may inform you I have come across a "weee' little problem that is a friend has asked for me to do a 2500 point game with him. normally I wouldn't be so nervous about said games as more often then not I have enough armored might in my Salamanders army to deal with almost anything but now I am facing something truly terrifying to any Marine.

 

500 guardsmen, no tanks, no sentinels, just 2 command platoons decked out in a way heavy weapon teams as many as can be taken with Lascannons and Missile teams and enough guardsmen to make a Land Raider have to roll Dangerous terrain just to preform tank shock! each unit is also armed with either Melta's or Flamers and normally come in group batches of 50 guardsmen for basic troops.

 

I don't know what to do here! there is no way i can win in hold ground or seize ground missions and for annilation games... will i don't even know if i want to go there! the only idea I have to try and save my ass is to try and go for a semi White scars theme to My Sallies or just try to rain a couple units of Vanguard vets with heroic intervention but for the most part I don't know where to start.

 

I know I could throw down a thunderfire or a Whirlwind but how do i hide those to make them effective against something like this. As said please give me a hand I need all the aces in the hole I can get and if anyone can help would be greatly helpful.

[Giga]

Well, first off, I don't know where he's going to deploy all that. He'll have to make huge blocks of infantry that are very very susceptible to templates. Hence, whirlwinds and thunderfire cannons are going to be very nice. Whirlwinds are ordnance, which means he makes pinning tests at -1 (and most guardsmen have leadership 7, or even less). This means you can literally incapacitate 50 dudes in a single shot.

 

As for actual killing, sweeping advance is what you should do. If his troop choices have 50 models in them, then each unit you sweeping advance will be a severe blow to his army.

 

At 2500 points, you can get tons of assault marines (with flamers!), remove their jumppacks to get free rhinos, give these free rhinos to tacticals, and put the assault marines into land raiders. Trust me, assault marines tear soft targets like guard infantry apart faster then you can read this sentence.

 

That being said, most marine units will end up slaughtering these big guardsmen squads in assault. Tacticals, for example, hit and wound the guardsmen on 3+. Add in the bolt pistol + flamer shooting before you assault (which, considering the size of the units you're assaulting, is probably not even going to trigger a leadership test), and you can literally hope to have your 10 tacticals wipe out an entire 50 men guard squad in a single turn.

 

Also, a 3 speeder squadron with heavy flamers costs 150 pts. Hide them behind cover for a single turn, and then go in and drop 3 heavy flamer templates on the squad of your liking.

 

 

 

 

The main problem, of course, is surviving to do all this. You need transports, and you need to hug cover. You're lucky if he's stacking on lascannons and melta, since this doesn't really damage you as much as other stuff guard have does (like leman russes with all those AP3 templates and, Emperor preserve us, colossus siege mortars with their STR6 AP3 ignores cover big templates). So all you have to do is rush him and pop smoke with your vehicles, so that you can get off a 2nd turn charge. If you make a massive assault all over his line, you can end up either sweeping advancing half his army or causing it to run off the table (in a 12" deployment, or dawn of war, many of his 50 men units are going to be dangerously close to the board edge, and all it needs is for one of his fleeing guys to touch the edge for his entire unit to diseppair).

 

EDIT: Again, you should also go for quantity over quality. At 2500 pts, you can get TONS of power armored bodies to the table, and if your opponent is playing an all-infantry army, it's going to be exceedingly easy for you to keep your huge power armored force alive. This means cheap stuff like tacticals, assault marines, whirlwinds, dakkapreds, etc. are all very good options to have en masse. Naked sternguard are also a great option, especially if your opponent is hugging cover (they hit on 3+, wound on 3+, and ignore cover saves, weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeh). Terminators, honor guard, vanguard, dreadnoughts, expensive HQs (this doesn't include special characters), and multimelta attack bikes are probably not going to be such a great idea, simply because they're too expensive and will suffer a lot from casualties. Also, termies cannot sweeping advance.

[greatcrusade08]

drop-podding ironclads with twin heavy flamers, infact flamers and heavy flamers are your friend :D

 

Think about scout bikes and LSS for first turn charges, maybe Shrike and a unit of assault marines kitted out with flamers for the same thing...

He wont expect all that..

 

GC08

[pingo]

I think you've got to use his own numbers against him too. If you position your marines correctly, his own men are going to be giving you cover saves!

 

Though to be honest, it doesn't sound like he has any weapons you need to be particularly scared of. After all, a lascannon can only kill one marine at a time. It is just the weight of fire that might get you. He'll probably not have much room to manouvre so I guess his plan is to just stand there and shoot you. So, I concur with the idea of assaulting. At least he won't be able to shoot you if you're in close combat with his units.

 

Perhaps a bunch of scouts armed with CCWs and shotguns would help? You could infiltrate and scout to postion them to shoot and charge some of the units that might hurt you before they get a chance to shoot? You could even tie up some of the guard in CC to prevent them shooting at your approaching marines.

[Vel'Cona]

All I wanna know, is where he got the cash to buy 500 plastic Guardsmen. That's like 50 plastic guard sets (cheapest option currently available), at 22 bucks a set that's like $1100. And that's disregarding the need for Heavy Weapon Teams (which increase the cost exponentially). Regardless of whether you win or lose, you should make him buy dinner! <_<

[minigun762]

Always remember the objectives, it doesn't have matter if he still has 300 guardsmen if they are not camping an objective and you are.

[CompanyOfTheFallen]

Well, since the main weapon will be the lasgun, which, in big numbers can kill marines pretty fast, you should either stay out of his range or present things to him he cant use this guns against (vehicles). I would play some Land Raider Crusaders filled with cheap assault units (assaualt squad without jump packs) which should be fine as long as they keep out of melta-range.

 

@Vel'Cona: maybe he is not playing with GW models - I got 80 warzone soldiers for about 25€ lately. Makes things a lot cheaper.

[Vel'Cona]

Good point. With the grand tournament situation seemingly hosed, I suppose there's really not much reason to feel hamstrung by GW figs for "human-ish" armies like Guard. I'd imagine WHFB Empire could be done up much the same way. You know, GW used to charge like 25 bucks for 10 Tactical Marines. I swear I remember that.

[Brother Tuditanus]

@Vel'Cona: maybe he is not playing with GW models - I got 80 warzone soldiers for about 25€ lately. Makes things a lot cheaper.

 

You don't say... I might be interested in those guys if ya'd care to shoot me a PM on their maker/manufacturer?

 

@Vel'Cona: I remember when they were even cheaper... It's sad to see some of these prices...

[Leethal]

Droppods, Sternguard, break his Command Squads.

 

Break them good.

 

Then shower his guardsmen with Whirlwinds.

 

Without the direction of his Command Squads, the rest of his army will soon break. As they are foot slogging, gun line your army.

 

Take some Land Speeders, and wait with them. Wait till get within 13-36 inches, and let loose.

 

Target Heavy weapons teams first with the whirlwind.

 

Take a Commander, drop an orbital bombardment on him.

 

Normally, the army I am suggesting would get ripped to shreads by any competent Guard player, but in this case, you have nothing to fear.

 

And honestly, YOU DONT EVEN HAVE TO WIN. The sheer number of kill points you are going to make will be enough to win, even if you get tabled.

 

You friend needs more forethought.

[Grey Mage]

Pedro Kantor.

Master of the Forge with Conversion Beamer.

3x Whirlwinds.

4x Scout Squad with cloaks and heavy bolters.

3x Landspeeder Typhoon Squadrons.

3x Sterngaurd Squads.

 

And maybe rhinos for the sterngaurd squads if you fear theres not enough cover to be had.

[Cornishman]

I know guard are cheap. But just how do you cram 2 decked out Company Command Squads, a total of 500 guard and enough heavy and special weapons to make an Imperator Titan weep in a 2.5k list?

How to combat an all Infantry army: Given the leadership of Guard pinning/going to ground I think will be your friend. This creates several vital effects: 1) The unit can’t move, so making it awkward to manoeuvre around (especially with 50 guard in it) 2) If a command squad it can’t make those pesky orders 3) the unit can’t fire.

 

How to get the guard to go to ground: Whirlwinds are good, 5" diameter pie plate, wounding (and killing) on 3's, with results pinning checks at -1 yummy . Especially given that they can be kept safely from sight of those missile launchers and lascannons. I’d go with Sniper Scouts to, and include Telion, his ability to pick off annoying people/ special equipment (Commissars, company banners etc...) I think would be handy. Given how such a list must be crammed into deployment a Chapter Masters Orbital Bombardment I think would pay dividends too.

 

Going through previous suggestions you have several options you can try and take them down at range using blast templates and superior range (this is why I’d go for sniper scouts) and pinning to keep their heads down and blast ‘em to bits, or you can the pinning to bog down the middle of their line whilst you pile into one of their flanks.

 

Sever the Head: Take out his various command squads/ Sergeants etc… Lower his leadership as much as possible, take out his ability to issue those annoying those annoying commands.

[waaanial00]

And honestly, YOU DONT EVEN HAVE TO WIN. The sheer number of kill points you are going to make will be enough to win, even if you get tabled.

 

If your force gets tabled or is wiped out then the other player will win by default, regardless of kill point differences.

 

Nothing really to add apart from take Bike Squads to really make him cry. Not only will he have to wound you on 6's with his lasguns you will have the advantage of shooting TL bolters into his ranks and then killing him in combat (he will need 6's to wound you there as well).

 

Wan

[Leethal]

And honestly, YOU DONT EVEN HAVE TO WIN. The sheer number of kill points you are going to make will be enough to win, even if you get tabled.

 

If your force gets tabled or is wiped out then the other player will win by default, regardless of kill point differences.

 

Nothing really to add apart from take Bike Squads to really make him cry. Not only will he have to wound you on 6's with his lasguns you will have the advantage of shooting TL bolters into his ranks and then killing him in combat (he will need 6's to wound you there as well).

 

Wan

 

 

Moral Victory then. What are the odds of getting tabled by footslogging Guardsmen of which most would probably run before they get within 12 inches of his army?

 

If he isn't carry heavy weapons teams....or ones not strong enough to take out Ironclads, laugh. Laugh very hard. And drop them on him.

 

Horde armies have limitations. True horde will get owned in the face. Horde with backup and support will eat you alive.

[Grey Mage]

Hes taking lascannons and missile launchers.... last I checked you got zilched when one of those hit you as a marine.

[Leethal]

Hes taking lascannons and missile launchers.... last I checked you got zilched when one of those hit you as a marine.

 

Gotta move them, and gotta hit with them.

 

Last I checked, Guardsmen ain't relentless and tend to miss half the time. Also they seem to get zilch from anything in a Space Marine's armory.

[Grey Mage]

Why would they need to move?

[Leethal]

To get to the gunline SM army that's shelling the crap out him with Whirlwinds?

[night walker]

use movie marines thatll teach him ;) otherwise as said template him to death

[Leethal]

I don't think movie marines would save him...

 

Only so many Movie Marines, and only so many Lascannons to go around.

[Grey Mage]

To get to the gunline SM army that's shelling the crap out him with Whirlwinds?

Wow... the amount of cover your group uses must be insane... I cant even begin to consider covering an entire 2500pts marine force in a deployment zone at my LGS or gaming group... or in any tournament Ive ever been to.

 

And of course, theres always mortars and veterans DSing.

[Cadarn]

As most people have been saying, templates and blasts are your bestest friends for this. If you can get Vulcan then great. If not a normal Chapter Master may help as he gives you an extra pie plate.

 

Someone briefly mentioned it earlier but it needs expanding upon, and that is sweeping advance. Shell his army to hell and then get stuck in. It doesn't matter how many he has in a unit so long as you kill more than he does in assault. He can kill all but your last man, but you are still likely to kill more of his, especially as he is not going to be able to bring all of the unit into assault. He could have twenty men left, but if you've managed to kill ten then that should be a big old LD modifier on his test. Think of it as being Akin to 300, with you as the Spartans.

 

Use the terrain to channel his troops. The sheer size of his squads will mean that he can only bring so many to bare at any one time. Also, if he is advancing then he is likely to be obstructing his own heavy weapons.

 

These are general tactics, but I've just had an EVIL idea of how to really annoy him.

 

Try and get a dread into combat with one of his units. It will tie them in combat and they will be incapable of doing anything against him. What's more, you cannot fire through units locked in assault, so if you do it to a unit in the front then you have not only blocked his line of sight, but restricted his movement, as he will not be able to move around them.

 

It's technically possible for the dread to wipe out an entire unit in one turn. They cannot hurt him, and he only needs to score one wound to win the combat. This causes a break test. They fail = They run. If they run, then the dread has a good chance of catching them in a sweeping advance. This means no more Unit. Personally, I would rather keep a couple of front row units tied up, dictating his movement and sight lines. You are then more free to pick off his units as you wish.

 

If you do go with this, then keep the dread cheap and stripped down. No flamer, only a MultiMelta, but Extra armour will be good. If he doesn't guess your game plan then he will treat it as a low priority on his target list. Why would an Infantry heavy force be scared of a Dread with a one shot multimelta and only two attacks? If you manage to get it into assault then he will soon learn his mistake.

[Vadskær]

Could you get hold of your friends list so we could have a peak at it. I still can't fathom how he'll cram 500 guardsmen for a mere total of 2500 points INCLUDING company and platoon command squads + heavy weapon teams.

 

Also, how the hell is he going to put so many models in his deployment zone?

[Vaktathi]

A few things.

 

First, how is your opponent fitting 500 guardsmen in 2500pts? Sounds dubious to me, especially if its anything other than basic lasgun infantry squads and conscripts. It will also make your opponents deployment extremely cramped. 340 or so all equipped and kitted I could see, but not 500. If your opponent is doing all conscripts and lasguns, then just mount up in rhino's and repeatedly tank shock everything and sit on objectives, nothing in the army will hurt you. However if its more like the 340 kitted, thats a different story.

 

Second, it seems as if many posters aren't familiar with the IG codex. trying to pin or make guardsmen run/break is one thing, it can work, but realize most units are Ld8 now, not "7 or less" as some posters have mentioned, and an amalgamated Infantry platoon with a commissar is Stubborn Ld9 with a single dude dies for a reroll if they fail that. Additionally, Officers and Orders are nice, they are helpful, but the army won't be crippled if you remove them, especially as they don't really provide Ld bubbles anymore. Cover saves against the majority of the IG shooting for shooting through their own units won't mean squat if it's not AP3. If he's packing 30 heavy bolters (doable in 2500pts in infantry squads alone) then it's not going to matter one bit and you'll lose 10 marines a turn from that shooting.

 

Template weapons will help, but remember, you are fighting *the* army of blast and template weapons, if you want to compete in that arena, the Guard player can raise you every time. Also don't forget that killing 8 guardsmen with an ordnance blast is a negligable loss, even though it might feel good, that's a 50pt unit, remember that. Even with 3 whirlwinds killing a full 10man squad every turn for 6 turns (an extremely unlikely possibility even with such a cramped deployment zone, not to mention cover, losing whirlwinds, whiff shots, average number of likely models under the templace, etc) you'll have killed only 180 guardsmen, leaving many more units still on the table (if the IG player maxed out infantry squads, there's still be 12 left plus platoon and HQ command squads and whatever else).

 

Multiple assaults are really the key to everything. Don't just assault one unit, hit two or three or even 4 if it's possible (I've done it with CSM's). Hitting 40 guardsmen with 10 SM's still leaves the SM's winning by 4 on average, crippling a huge section of the line. Get stuck in with as many units as you can, and use the combat resolution to your advantage. You will not compete on shooting, you will need to get into assaults, and make them stick. Against an all infantry IG army at that many points, your opponent can manage to not only outnumber you in scoring units, but if almost entirely dependent on Infantry squads, may even have fewer KP's than you, so wiping large units or groups of units at a stroke will be key. If you can do that, then the IG player will be losing large numbers of units at a time, and you can turn the numbers advantage against them with combat resolution. However, beware amalgamated platoons with Commissar's, they will tarpit your force forever.

 

You won't win by any amount of shooting an SM army can bring to the table, if you want to compete at that you'll just have handed the IG player the game on a silver platter. Assaulting as soon as possible into as many units as possible with as much of your force as possible is whats going to win it for you. Template and flamer weapons will help, they can clear solid section of an IG line, but don't rely on them to win you the game, you wont have enough and the IG player can outdo you in that regard if they want to.

 

Finally, remember than an IG platoon with 35 guys, 4 heavy weapons and 5 specials costs about as much as a squad of marines in a transport, and that is what you'll need to contend with. If you start off playing Dawn of War, you will have a huge advantage in that the first couple turns of shooting will be very light and you should be able to make it in with your entire force and defeat the IG army in CC in about 2 or 3 turns. If you are playing Pitched Battle it may not go well for you. If playing Table Quarters, the IG player may not be able to fit everything.

 

If I were going to play a footslogging IG list like this, heres what my list would look like

 

 

130pts for HQ command and whatever goodies

 

2370pts Troops:

 

5x Infantry Platoons

 

Platoon command, 4x grenade launcher

5x infantry squad, GL/Autocannon

 

1x Infantry Platoons

 

Platoon command, 4x grenade launcher

2x infantry squad, GL/Autocannon

3x Lascannon HWS

 

28 autocannons, 56 Grenade Launchers, 9 Lascannons, +whatever weapons you give the HQ command, 323 bodies, and a minimum KP count of 16 (not bad for 2500pts).

 

Swap out some GL's for Melta's in the Platoon command if you wish. between the autocannons on average that's going to be 3 rhino's lost each turn (assuming no smoke, that cuts it in half obviously) and the Lascannons will hurt other vehicles. the GL's may not seem scary, but when they are Assault with a 24" range and 56 of them, they will be scary. They are capable of popping rhino's and enmasse will kill Space Marines. That list will put a real strain on most SM armies shooting abilities, especially if playing Pitched Battle and not table quarters or Dawn of War.

 

That said, I could make the list above much nastier by removing a couple infantry squads and throwing Commissar's into each Platoon.

 

 

 

 

I'd leave things like Terminators, Sternguard, Predators, Honor Guard and the like at home, take as many Tac squads as you can, along with some Dreads and Bikes. you'll need lots of numbers and you'll want a wave of Space Marines crashing into the line in contact with as many units as possible. If you can get 6 tac squads on close combat with a much large number of guard squads, defeating large sections of the line will be relatively easy, and you'll be able to sweep much of the board one after another like that. Also, by assault multiple units, it means you may not break all of them that round, and may break them all during your *opponents* assault phase, leaving your SM's free to conduct another multiple assault in your next turn without having faced any fire.

[Leethal]

To get to the gunline SM army that's shelling the crap out him with Whirlwinds?

Wow... the amount of cover your group uses must be insane... I cant even begin to consider covering an entire 2500pts marine force in a deployment zone at my LGS or gaming group... or in any tournament Ive ever been to.

 

And of course, theres always mortars and veterans DSing.

 

Who cares about the Marines? Protect the Whirlwinds! :)

 

Break the command squads, and then just blow stuff up. Marines will die, Whirlwinds are to be protected at all costs.