500 Guardsmen

[DavidKits]

thank you for all the comments each one is valuable i will admit. as for people asking how he can get 500 guardsmen i don't know i might be over doing it in number all i know he owns a snap kicking of em and yes THEY ARE ALL GAMESWORKSHOP MODEL he has spent enough over the years to make this massive infantry force of pain.

 

now on the Matter of taking em to town in close combat that is a very valid idea and i will have to consider how to do this more. After all i watched him go up against a Nid force which is all CC based and tabled the Nid Player who may I add was a very good player!

 

on the matters of deployment and what he does. he literally fills one full half of the table more often then not and sits there letting you get close as he blasts you to ribbions. when people say pin him down it would work if not for the fact of his order "get back in the fight" and his amazing ability to roll those order checks like you wouldn't believe!

 

If i go with the Ironclads In drop pods how would i keep them alive... i mean if i shoot the flamers on it into the crowd i may hit alot granted but now i'm out in the open for at least 6 meltaguns and 9 lascannons to shoot back. do i just drop it and then pop smoke? I think My vanguard doing Heroic intervention even though most of you vetoed that was the best choice for first turn assaults as I don't know how you guys plan on explaining first turn charge with a Land Speeder storm... i mean its not a dedicated transport so you can't start with scouts in it and then it becomes a waste to rush something forward with no one in it.

 

though I need ask how do you guys feel on putting in 'The Kahn' Would using the white scar's outflank be a good choice to do for my whole army just keep it all in reserve and flank move and assault/shoot/etc everytime i bring a unit in?

[Vaktathi]

Anything allowing you to outflank and hit your opponent before they get a chance to shoot is good. If your opponent gets a chance to fire, with a full gunline IG infantry army, it will hurt, a lot. using Khan's outflanking thingy, hitting a section of your opponents like and catching 2-4 units in an assault would be an excellent way to get in there and start wreaking havoc.

 

Again, don't try to defeat an IG player in a shooting war, you will lose unless your opponent has tremendously, statistically improbable, bad luck. Use what shooting ability you have to its fullest, but don't compete on that level.

 

With regards to dreads, you'll really have to look at the board and decide where the least amount of pain will come from. Drop it where its likely to get into combat on the next turn, don't worry so much about it firing (a heavy flamer killing off 6 guardsmen worth 30pts isn't going to justify the investment) but do your best to ensure it will live and likely make it into combat when it is able. Having 2-3 dreadnoughts crunching through squad after squad will be very unnerving for an IG player, however, again, there is a good chance that melta/lascannon spam will bring them down. Sometimes this can be fine, if the IG player is shooting at dreads, they may not be shooting at your Rhino's.

 

As for command squads, kill them if its convienent, but as an IG player, I generally consider my command squads expendable with the exception of my HQ command, but only as it's my Deep Strike reaction squad with meltaguns. Given that they no longer provide an Ld bubble and most IG units are Ld8 now, they become less critical in that regard, and Orders, while obviously nice, aren't super critical (oh look, I might force one more save with lasguns!) with the exception of the HQ command squads orders, which can hurt, but again, still aren't super critical, but are very nice.

 

The LR storm can start with Scouts in it, just because its not dedicated doesn't mean you can't start a unit in there.

 

With respect to Vanguard vets, with a deployment zone that crowded and given their cost, they'll likely either scatter into something, get shot to pieces once they come on if they are too far away, or quite simply won't kill anything near enough to justify their cost. Dumping a 175pt minimum 5man squad into a guard line isn't going to accomplish much if they kill 1 50-75pt infantry squad and get killed right after.

 

 

That said, I think Mech IG are still an infinitely more scary force to face.

[DavidKits]

strange... i went over it with the GW manager by my house and he said only units that are dedacated to the vehicle can start in it. we went over this in a tourny event where a friends khorne lord and bezerkers couldn't start in the land raider because of that rule <.<

 

ah i see why the vanguard wouldn't be good with the jump packs... without em in a rhino maybe better to help beef up a unit charging into a guard squad.

 

as for one or 2 more armor saves due to shooting because of orders... i watched this guy pump 150 shots into a full sized unit of ork boyz and dish out about 60+ wounds in one go <.< sick! >,< then again ork boys...

[Vaktathi]

Dedicated transports can only start the unit it was bought for embarked, but non dedicated transports can have anything embarked at the beginning. That may be where the confusion is.

 

As for Vanguard, quite simply, they are overkill. 3 marines will on average defeat a 10man IG Infantry squad in combat, you don't need an expensive specialist squad. Getting a tac squad into 2 or 3 units at once will still in all likelyhood see them defeat their IG opponents. Go for bodies over quality against IG. Vanguard and Honor Guard and the like really are for fighting more elite enemies, not smashing WS3 S3 T3 I3 Ld7/8 5+sv units.

 

With respect to Orders, FRFSRF relies a lot on a unit being in range, being amalgamated, and being able to wound the target. 150 lasgun shots with FRFSRF should on average kill about 20/21 orks, it's possible to do more of course, but not likely and not something be relied upon. The basic Lasgun really does suck hardcore.

[DavidKits]

*nods* fair enough and thanks again for the info :3 will help out alot :3 i see outflanking Land Raider redeemer with Marines inside in the near future for helpful pain dealing to multiple squads.

[Vaktathi]

I believe only dedicated transports get to Outflank with Khan, or the unit needs Combat Tactics (which IIRC LR's do not have), can Land Raiders in a codex SM army be taken as dedicated transports for non-terminators? Taking it with 5 or 6 LC termi's wouldn't be a bad idea, you could probably get into a couple units with that assuming your opponent will have as cramped a deployment zone as I think they will. A Redeemer is a good choice, tank shock it in to force a unit to take an LD test, and hit two units with flamers with PotMS, and it will hurt, then dump out the termi's into a couple units and you may have just cleared a flank of 3-5 units. The Termi's can take some return fire as long as they don't start throwing lots of plasma and Lascannon shots at them, so they stand a good chance of getting into more stuff afterwards.

[DavidKits]

true only Dedicated transport can do it but hey if the only ones i'm taking can do that should be helpful even the tactical Rhinos with flamers will be good for me drive on 6 inchs drive by flamer template seems mean *laughs* though my flamers sadly wouldn't be as useful without Vulken but hey i want to see the look on my friends face when he sees a bunch of angry Salamanders doing a Rhino drive by with flamers XD who come off his board edge :3 with a unit of Assault marines in a rhino hiding just behind the first one so they can hopefully get some turn 3 assaults XD

[Tutteman]

Sounds like Khârn is a good buy for this. I remember someone on here remindind us you can't shoot through a unit in combat so if you get guys into his front ranks, then again how long would the squad against them last :) not long enough I suppose

 

 

EDIT: Good catch there :( V

[DavidKits]

I would imagine neither would the squad running with Khârn to get the betrayer there to start with :rolleyes:

[Captain of The Inceptors]

With that many gaurdsmen your opponent can block your outflank really easily.

A very cheap squad can be posted right along the board edge stopping you from coming within 1 inch and keeping you off the board. or even better for him if he plants them 6 inches in then you have no choice but to engage them, beat them, then be left out in the open.

 

I would say then that a good tactic would be to use many small squads with razorbacks, 6 marines have the ability to break a unit of guardsmen and the razorback can kick out a good few heavy bolter rounds. Although I have never used them Whirlwinds can only be brilliant against the larger units. how annoying for the opponent when his 50 man unit is pinned, or worse 3 of them.

 

It's a shame your not playing Chaos, 20 man squads could be spread out to cover a huge number of his units in multiple assault. Bearing in mind that a 20 strong unit could potentially be 60 inches wide.

 

I wonder how well your opponent does at tournaments.

[Ming]

I have heard of at least one all guard infantry going into the semis for Ard Boyz. Spammed on lasguns and metlaguns, commisars, Al Rahem, and the decision to combine squads occurs during deployment (setting variable kill points). At least one Company Command Squad, 1-2 Platoon Command Squads, overall up to about 250 regular troopers coombined upwards to 5 combined suqads (at least one will be able to outflank from reserves).

 

The commisars make the combined squads stubborn (no modifiers to leadership checks), plus his presence means if they did fail the LD9, he pops one for a single re-roll. If they did run, and you fail to catch them, the officers can order they do so, they rally, and get back in the fight.

 

The good news is that these combined squads do not have ANY power fists (but might have several sergeansts/commisars with meltabombs) - making it reasonable to tar pit them with a dreadnaught / walker.

 

The bad news is you might not want to try charging them any other way. 5 terminators vs 50 guardsmen with 6+ power weapons would not last very long.

 

The other bad news is that the power of up to 25 lascannons and 25 meltaguns is "better" for the IG than 9 squadroned Lehman Russ tanks....

 

What I've heard is really key is (1) take down the command squads first to stop the orders, effectively reducing the killhammer capability of the IG - do this with whatever means is best for your list. (2) deal with the squads in a way that reduces their ability to hit you. Once you get them near half size, charge them.

[DavidKits]

i don't know how charging a unit into huge 50 man unit will end well. i watched one game where a guy with 10 khrone termies with lightnin claws mulch up a huge 50 man unit of conscripts... and yet the conscripts still managed to wipe them out... <.< bad bad rolling on the khrone player. but take that same number and have at least 5 guys with either power fists or weapons... i have to hope i knock out enough of the little bastards that no one can strike back.. but my chances of that are horribly horribly small...

[Koremu]

Are Conscripts the ones who are on combat stims and therefore Stubborn? Those can bog you down. Your best ally against IG is usually Combat Resolution, and Stubborn takes that advantage away from you. Your opponent will probably try to steer you into such a buffer unit for just such a reason.

[chapter master 454]

I think this would be a job for 3 thunderfire cannons. Keep them away from the guard and level them, I doubt if you aim at the heart you'll miss much! I've leveled ork boyz units of 30 down to 10 with thunderfires, the sheer amount of anti-infantry goodness they provide is just ungodly, oh and remember they instant death guard so hitting their command will negate the FNP from medic (Thats if you use the STR6 AP5 round). If you can get 6 full tacticals armed with heavy bolters and flamers, 3 thunderfires, lysander and marneus in terminator armour along with a full tactical terminator unit with 2 CMLs and that off the top of my head is about 2500 points right there, most likely say a couple of land speeders worth of points available but no more than a full squadron worth.

 

you now have 60 marines who combined out put 18 shots from heavy bolters and if he closes in just bolter wall him. You have a squad of terminators with an output of 20 shots plus 4 blasts along with marneus 2 shots which all re-roll to hit if they fail thanks to lysander. If lysander and marneus hit I think you will quite easily leave the guard squad quite messed up and leaving alot of them at the back stuck unable to fire through. When in doubt, throw more men at it. When in doubt throw POWER ARMOURED GENETICALLY ENHANCED SUPER men at it!

[Moonsword]

Are Conscripts the ones who are on combat stims and therefore Stubborn? Those can bog you down. Your best ally against IG is usually Combat Resolution, and Stubborn takes that advantage away from you. Your opponent will probably try to steer you into such a buffer unit for just such a reason.

 

No. Conscripts are the ones who are kids and have lower stats. Some of the Penal Legions might be, but their special rules are randomly rolled each game.

[DavidKits]

conscripts can come in units of 30 to 50 base they are weaker and not as well trained but still watching 38 from a unit of 50 beat down 10 khrone termies was impressive to say the least. *nods and reads other comments*

 

true the commissars are gonna be a pain giving huge clumps of guardsmen the whole stubbon rule though i can't remember off the top of my head if he uses them.

 

as for playing an all infantry space marine force trying to out shoot him... isn't that a little.. you know crazy as he does outgun me literally 100s to one...

[chaplain_quint]

I'd say use khan on a bike and cram 3 full assaultsquads in outflank mode. one assaultsquad attached to khan to give str 5 on the the charge and one squad with a chaplain attached to it. All 3 squads are maxed out with flamers off course. and if he has that many models you are bound to get a charge as soon you outflank. watch his face as one flank is entirely swamped with marines and he cant do jack about it. pull out a multiple assault and you will stay in combat.

 

While he is crunching his mind how to react throw pieplates of whirlwind happiness or TFC's on his other flank. Or maybe in the middle, as you also outflanked 6 full tacticals, to kick him between the legs.

When the 6 tacticals outflank do not deploy them right away as tempting as it may sound, deploy smoke as you race as close to him as possible to assault him in the next fase.

 

By then he will be severly shocked how to deal with that all, and then the mopping up starts.

 

Golden rule, swamp the flanks or he will swamp you and your assault will get bogged in the masses of guardsmen.

 

I once played against an all infantry army at 1500 pts and used shrike to outflank. just one full squad was enough to route much of his army.

[I AM THE AWESOME]

Assuming he can fit 500 Guard in an army, there's going to be a few problems.

 

First, he's probably not going to be able to fit everything on the table, meaning your 2500 points of Marines will probably be going against no more than 2000 pts of IG at a time.

 

Second, even if he fits the full army, that's going to be jam-packed.

 

Solution? If no melta, this:

 

Basic Libby/Chappie/MotF

6x 5 Tacs in Rhinos

5 Assault Terminators w/ LRR

5 Terminators w/ LRR

3x LRR

 

You're going to bum rush him off the board. 11 vehicles should be able to tank shock 500 Guardsmen off the table fast enough if they're that close together. Each of your 5-man tacs is easily a match for his IG squads. If you stick in your transports the whole game, you should be able to drive all over him. Laugh as his puny lascannons try to damage your 5 Redeemers. Laugh as your Redeemers torch his packed IG. Really not a problem.

[Arch-angel Gabriel]

Well, I know this isn't what you're wanting to hear, but good luck!

 

I used to play an IG list similar to what this cat is running and Space Marines were really the least of my concerns. But, maybe if I can tip his hand a bit and try to shine some light on what he (could) try and accomplish:

 

1) Kill 'em All. Since he won't really be able to move, he's going to try to annhilate all of your troops while maintianing his own. If you try to outshoot him this won't be difficult at all (though planting some cloaked scouts in cover and having them go to ground might help) and if you try to mech rush him in anything less than a LR he'll succeed as well there.

 

2) Too big to fail. While this may sound basic, something like this spawns a strange mix of mobility, firepower, and CC potential. Not everything in his list will be able to fire and, so, those will be the elements he can advance forward. He can hide heavy weapons in his IG squads and not loose much firing potential (in fact, I would say this does a strange maximizing effect where he can missile launcher a rhino then blast the bejesus out of the squad inside with flashlights). With the Combined Squad rule, guardpiles are all the more dangerous. You've already mentioned the classic 50 conscripts vs. terminators (which conscripts are the terminator equivalents in this kind of list).

 

3) Stumbling, bumbling, fumbling. As others have mentioned, he's going to take up an entire deployment zone. He's not going to have a whole lot of room to dodge pie plates and it's possible that some of his flanks will be useless (i.e. there may not be anything deployed in front of them). I know this may sound crazy, but deploying your forces on one flank does not solve the entire problem. If you're mecha, one half of his list should (if built right) still have enough umph to kill anything shy of a Landraider in the first turns of shooting. This gives his "gimp" flank plenty of time to swing around and draw a bead on whatever's left. But, it still remains that a hard hit on one flank will require him to spend time swinging the other flank aroudn to cover.

 

4) A poor man's Fearless. A regimental standard is almost a must for this army as re-rolling Ld 8 is impressive. Add to this that combined squads will allow him to buy only 1 commisar per combined squad and make the whole batch Ld 9 and Stubborn. Don't expect to get too much mileage by forcing leadership checks (they have about the same chances of effecting him as they do of effecting you.

 

5) Roadblocks. Combined Squads is awsome. But the fact that you can no longer consolidate into another CC is equally amazing. If he wanted to be a real drivel, he'd not combine his squads and force you to chew through 10 man units at a time. The advantage here is that it gives him options. He can either choose to have the survivors stand and shoot, or have the units further back shoot and ther close units charge. I wouldn't expect this in a KP mission but in objectives this would be a prime way of slowing down your advance. As you've already mentioned, most squads pack a melta-gun also. Combined with their impressive Ld, I would recommend against tank shocking such units...ever. Not only will you likely not make them fall back, but (again) anything shy of a LR will likely bite it.

 

So, some tricks I guess:

 

1) Use Rhinos to BLOS.

2) Use Whirlwinds behind some serious terrain to snipe command squads.

3) Deep Strike Termies instead of Dreadnaughts (if you can afford it).

4) First turn is almost a must

5) Cloaked Scouts going to ground will have a 2+ against anything he throws and make great objective squaters (just don't go to ground their last turn).

 

Anyways, I know this is long but I hope it helps shine some light on potential strengths/weaknesses of his list. I would have to agree that the guy above is pretty spot on except a couple parts. Firstly, the bit about 5 tact marines taking a squad of IG is slightly off. Perhaps a squad of 10, but if he's fielding sqauds of 50 then you might have problems. Secondly, don't underestimate twin-linked lascannons. Even the Missile Launchers can immoblize your LR leaving them with just the assault cannon. Other than that, the vehicle spam alone should ensure that you're going to end up in his face and even if only 3 LRR make it, that's 6 twin-linked uber flamers (assuming Vulkan) streaking through his lines.

[dreadmad]

Id take squads of sternguard (6 men) with 4 combi-flamers and 2 heavy flamers (wounding on 2s :) )in razorbacks with heavy flamers. Thats alot of crispy guard...

[Warp Angel]

Guard infantry weaknesses:

 

They are killed 2/3 of the time they are touched by a flamer template and die to 4/9 or better of the times you pull the trigger on any other non-template weapon. This means that 10 Marines should kill around 5 guardsmen a turn without even factoring in templates, multiple shots, or hand to hand.

 

Leadership 7 (heavy and special weapons squads) or 8 (most other units). Adding a commisar means a minimum of 40 points to make them stubborn and bump the Ld. to 9. That's almost a whole squad worth of points and given that you're expecting hundreds of infantry, I doubt you'll see them. Ld7 = better than a 1/4 chance of running, Ld8 = 1/6 or so

 

The magic numbers to force a break test in shooting are:

 

49-50=13 casualties (five guard squads)

45-48=12 casualties

41-44=11 casualties

37-40=10 casualties (four guard squads)

33-36= 9 casualties

29-32= 8 casualties (three guard squads)

25-28= 7 casualties

21-24= 6 casualties

17-20= 5 casualties (two guard squads)

13-16= 4 casualties

9-12= 3 casualties (one guard squad)

5-8= 2 casualties (special/base command squad size)

2-4= 1 casualty (heavy weapons squad size)

 

So, looking at the above, by killing a relatively small number of troops in a squad, that we know die very easily to space marine shooting, you've got a 1/6 or better chance of forcing them to run. Without an officer very nearby, they can't rally if they're below 50% strength, and unlike Marines, even if they do rally, they count as having moved for the purposes of firing weapons. You don't have to kill all of them, you just need to break them.

 

Speaking of breaking, it takes 18 regular guard hand to hand attacks to kill one marine (hit 1/2 * wound 1/3 * fail save 1/3), so that 50 strong squad with 5 sergeants (assuming no power weapons, since adding them will significantly reduce the number of troops on the field, like the commisar does) will likely only get an AVERAGE of 3 dead marines if you charge them. And you should inflict about 1 unsaved wound for every 3 attacks. That means that 10 charging marines should give you 7 dead guardsmen, winning an average combat by four. That's very good odds of them breaking.

 

You don't want to rely on average numbers and want to get overkill, so charge with more than one squad or get into multiple assaults with multiple of your units for optimum results. It's entirely possible to break two or more squads. Even if you can't catch them in sweeping advance, they've got a fair chance of not recovering before they're run off the table.

 

Offensively guard pose little threat compared to what their numbers look like. 18 lasgun shots to kill a Marine. Control range and don't let them rapid fire. Control the officers and they don't get the "First Rank.." order. Lasguns are also useless against vehicles.

 

Heavy and special weapons only hit about half the time. If they have 25 of them, and you have no cover save, that means that they're going to roll 13 chances to wound (only getting 10-11), and similar issues with popping vehicles. AV13 is ROUGH for lascannons and missiles, even in quantity. Heavy Weapon Squads are also the EASIEST to break. Without a commisar lord or special character's leadership aura, they break 1/4 of the time after suffering just a single casualty. If your target priority is good, then they shouldn't last that long if they're in a position to be a threat.

 

Powerfists are almost non-existant in a guard's army list and are S6 when they get them. There's no reason for characters to fear instant death in hand to hand, and dreads are just about invulnerable once they are stuck in.

 

So now that I've talked about the weaknesses of guard infantry, lets talk about Marine Strengths.

 

Template Weapons, especially S6 or better for the instant death fun. - Vindicator, Plasma Cannon, Thunderfire are all good thoughts, though only consider the Thunderfire if you've got a lot of cover to deploy it in or behind, and don't expect it to last that long. It will soak up a ton of attention, giving your maneuver elements time to close in. The Vindicator's AV13 will draw a LOT of firepower its way and may survive.

 

Deathwind Drop Pods and Whirlwinds are also problematic for guard. The former blocks LOS and lobs pie plates up close, AND deploys Marines or Dreads at optimum killing distance. The latter is very vulnerable to enemy shooting at range, but is cheap and serves to tie up the enemy shooting like the Thunderfire.

 

Ironclad Dreadnaughts - AV13, flamers, what's not to like? Guard literally have no answer to them aside from shooting them.

 

Bikes. It takes a horde of lasgun shots or CC combat to kill bikes. And bikes can get to hand to hand faster than just about every unit in the codex. Like I mentioned above, guard are very vulnerable to hand to hand. Turbo-Boost to get close with a 3+ cover save AND take advantage of terrain and LOS blocking to minimize incoming fire, then rapid fire/flamer template, and assault on the next turn. There's a fair chance that you'll table a squad a turn, starting around turn 2, especially if you include a captain on a bike.

 

Speeders with Heavy Flamers - immune to lasguns, and moving quickly get a good chance to soak up a lot of fire while getting close. I see a lot of potential with a Land Speeder Storm.

 

Oh, and Land Raider Crusaders and Redeemers are fun and happy. It takes an average of 6 guard lascannon shots (two full teams) to have a chance to do damage to the vehicle. Once they get within weapons range, it becomes pure carnage, even if they have nothing inside of them. A vanilla vanguard squad inside one would wreak absolute havoc.

 

Consider Khosarro Khan and his ability to let your units outflank. That heavy firepower does no good to the guard player if he can't shoot at you, and even if they come in fairly late in the game, there are so many models, you won't lack for targets.

 

And now tactics:

 

Focus your efforts on multiple table sections, or focus on a single flank - minimize his number advantage and maximize your mobility. You can't get into a ranged slugfest and expect good things to happen.

 

Distraction - tie up his heavy weapons by giving them targets away from your main advance by using units that he can't ignore, and that require a significant portion of his real firepower to address.

 

Target Selection - Assign a high situational value to heavy weapons squads and command squads. They can affect the game far more than a basic infantry squad usually will, regardless of its loadout.

 

Utilize reserves intelligently - If you're going second, there's not a whole lot of reason to leave fast movers like speeders and bikes out there to be shot at without benefit of their cover saves from movement. The same MIGHT be said for rhino/razorback mounted units, or any transport/move and fire plaforms like the Whirlwind. It's up to you to figure out how that balance plays out with your actual army list.

[Sternguard sergeant McColl]

Against this much infantry? Just laugh as he keeps missing with his expensive LC's, Drop a few dreads and pop smoke (preferably ironclad) Also if you have the units thunderfire cannons, whirlies, and LS's (Typhoon, or as I prefer, Dual HB) I've amassed two TFC's in my army and six of those dual HB speeders and I just giggle as I watch hordes asploed. Also a LRC with a cheap, choppy unit would do well. Basically this is the kind of game where you leave sternguard, Vanguard, and termies at home. And unit prioritizing is everything. Consider having units for the dedicated purpose of command/heavy wep hunting. Telion would do good in this role. Something fast and powerful. remember if you drop that dread 6" within his forces he can't get away without running, and therefore not shooting or issuing orders.

 

Command squads>Heavy weapons squads>Everything else.

[jamie bj]

to be honest, i would just take MILLIONS of tactical marines in rhinos, with maybe a redeemer with terminators in. Flamers for the tacticals as well, then, your outnumbered like three to one, but he cant get through your armour (once youve got rid of the lascannons) so you can hold objectives and then just clear the ground around them with more rhinos, you win.

[Cornishman]

If the Carnifex was within synapse range it would unfortunately be 1 wound, if the Carnifex was outside of synapse range (12" iirc) then the Carnifex would suffer instant death.

[Arch-angel Gabriel]

Cause those IG Carnifexes are bad news bears...(sorry, I had too)