Daemons true Bane

[OwlandMoonGuy]

The more games I play with my daemons the one army type that I don’t have a solid tactic for are those with Fast Tanks, e.g. Mech Eldar & Tau (but mainly Eldar). There are 2 primary issues.

 

Daemons have little shooting but even the shooting they do have is low strength. Yes, Grinders can take the S10 maw cannon upgrade but it misses ½ the time. Way too unreliable. So to kill tanks you need to get up close & personal which is the job of Greater Daemons & Daemon Princes. They can sure get the job done but there are also other targets they need to concern themselves with like enemy characters & units with high Toughness.

 

The other issue is getting tank shocked off objectives. Since it’s difficult to bring down fast tanks, inevitably one is going to swing around and shock troops off objectives. Since daemons don’t have common personal anti-tank weapons there’s little hope for a Death or Glory. If you do get any CC attacks back, you’ll need 6’s to hit. The only hope left is the results of random game length, again, way too unreliable.

 

So what’s the solution for daemon lists set to take on, “all comers?”

 

Here is one thought:

 

Fiends + Unholy Might

Good all around but somewhat fragile. At least the, Fleet/Beast rules give them a max 19” – 24” charge range.

 

Here are some others that I don’t really like:

 

Screamers

Do have meltabombs but are only good at killing Tanks. Everything else eats them for lunch including walkers. Since they are Jetbikes they are at least mobile. Still, so selective that they are useless at least ½ the time.

 

5 MC Daemon Zilla

IMHO, costs way too many points and leaves you vulnerable to hoards and lack troops to hold objectives. Balance seems to be somewhere around 2-3 MC's + 2 Grinders.

 

Bolt of Tzeentch

You can try to drop Tzeentch units with Bolt behind enemy tanks and hope for the best. Problem there is that unless properly supported these tend to be suicide missions. If they fail then it’s like throwing pricy Tzeench models away.

 

That’s all the analysis I have time for right now. Any thoughts anyone would like to share I’d be happy to hear them.

 

-OMG

[DuskRaider]

I don't know... I've had luck thus far. I tend to try and surround my enemy in their deployment and at that point they feel more obliged to take shots at me and support their troops then travel about the board. It's all about psychology as well, and when they see 60 troops, a Soulgrinder, a Daemon Princes or two and a couple Greater Daemons in their deployment zone, they tend to freak out and throw out all tactics. I tend to run a Daemonzilla... somewhat. A Soulgrinder, 2 Daemon Princes (if points allow), and 2 Greater Daemons (always). Big things tend to make the enemy act irrational and make them a priority. Truthfully, I've taken down tanks just as much with my Bloodletters as I have with my MCs/SGs.

[minigun762]

Against the fast movers, I think we have a few decent options.

1) Flamers, yeah they can only glance and its not the best use of them, but auto-glances 50% of the time can add up and you might get lucky with an immobilized result.

2) You mentioned Soulgrinders with Tongue, but Phlegm is actually MUCH better. S8 is enough to bust open most any light/medium vehicle and you have a fair chance to hit with them actually.

3) Any MC other then the GUO is fast enough to catch and kill one typically. They also put out enough attacks and/or have some shooting to back themselves up to do it fairly reliably

[Seahawk]

My KoS and Fiends have always caught any vehicle and ripped it up thus far. I still haven't played against Eldar (frustratingly) but every other army has lost their vehicles mainly to those two units. Sometimes the flamers (I has 9 now, teehee!) whack it with breath, then assault the rear armors, as only slow vehicles have a higher rear armor than 10.

[LuNCHBiZZLe]

I had my BoN kill tanks and it seemed to work just fine.

[OwlandMoonGuy]

Just to make myself clear, I’m talking about armies that can literally spam the table with FAST tanks.

 

Static tank lines like the new guard can have some problems with daemons because standard troops like letters & daemonettes can DS close on a flank, inhibit the IG from bringing too many guns to bear and start popping tanks in close combat. In that case, the vehicle can’t easily backpedal and unleash the dakka before it’s too late.

 

When you have 5-10 fast vehicles in the table the chances are much lower that foot slogging units can catch them in an assault. They can slip away, unhindered by terrain or other models to ideal firing positions. After all your daemon reserves are on the table, your opponent need only to take a turn to reform at a distance and bring the rain on your daemonic troops.

 

So that’s my issue. -OMG

[avatar8481]

And you've identified why the Demon Codex isn't a viable tournament army in 5th edition where Mech is the standard list. The best I've been able to do is spam either Heralds of Tzeentch on discs to get around to popping back armor with Bolt or Monsterous Creatures where you have to take wings so that they can keep up. 2 or 3 daemon princes with 18in death ranges for vehicles can at least control the table so that the tanks go where you want them, but honestly there aren't really good answers for your questions.

[OwlandMoonGuy]

Saying that they aren’t viable is an extreme I won’t jump to but I do agree with your point exactly. It’s not that the army scatters during their initial deployment (which is a definite weakness) it’s the fact that timeless eons of endless wars in the Warp didn’t equip the infernal legions with any way to counter air superiority.

 

As I proposed in my initial post, Fiends might edge out as the best supplemental unit in this regard. They at least are Strength 5(6) with enough rending attacks to get the job done. I believe they may have just taken my #2 favorite Elite choice away from Flamers.

 

The other answer I’ve considered is more the tactic of overall game play. When taking on lots of fast I think it’s necessary to risk closer deep strikes with key anti-fast tank units. Opponents tend to, “castle up “ when facing daemons since they don’t know where the initial brut of the attack will come from – their backs to a table edge to keep from being shot in backside. By risking DS’s within 12” of the defensive line you can at least put on so much pressure that they have to break formation or risk a next turn assault.

 

Something more to ponder.

 

-OMG

[antique_nova]

How about purpose built DP with wings chasing after them? much cheaper than GD and you get more of them. However, the turbo boost does anoy ones deamon alot.

The GD could be used for the same unit/character killing and your men or daemons could do what they always do, while the DPs just chase the fast vehicles around and around all over the place...... Ganging up on one usually helps.

thanks

antique_nova

[minigun762]

Just to make myself clear, I’m talking about armies that can literally spam the table with FAST tanks.

 

But all those vehicles are either paper thin (Dark Eldar especially) or you can only put down a half dozen or so medium armor ones.

For the ones that are AV10, any of our shooting should be able to take them down, hell even Horrors will provide enough dakka to knock out Raiders and such.

The heavier, tougher ones like Devilfish and Falcons are more of a challenge, but they are also the prime targets for fast moving MCs or the other units we mentioned.

 

You can't really hunt them with your groundpounders, but then again you shouldn't try to either. Let the Troops take objectives and kill their more static elements (like other troops).

Let your HQs, Elites, Fast and Heavies take the fight to the fast tanks.

 

If you're most worried about tank shocking (remember that the vehicle must actually be a tank) then you could always screen your objectives with MCs or Soulgrinders and do a "Death or Glory" attack when they try it.

[OwlandMoonGuy]

Dark Eldar are certainly not in the same category which is why I omitted them.

 

Tau bring the, ‘Fish of Fury’ style lists which are a problem in this case but a bit more manageable. There will be more skimmers on the table but not all will be tanks and I don’t believe all of them will be Fast (but I’d have to check). The amount of dakka they can bring is the real issue but that’s how Tau rolls.

 

Eldar have Fast skimmers that are Tanks that can also bring the dakka just to a lesser degree. And yet, they also have high toughness MC units like Writhlords & Avatars. In order to ensure that your troops don’t get locked into unwinnable close combats hard choices must be made.

 

I certainly agree with you concerning tank shock. Guarding objectives w/troops & a Grinder may be the only viable way to secure them in the last turns of the game. At least the Grinder has enough shooting range to support the overall battle while serving in that role. I don’t believe I’d ever use a DP to just sit on an objective.

 

-OMG

[minigun762]

At least the Grinder has enough shooting range to support the overall battle while serving in that role. I don’t believe I’d ever use a DP to just sit on an objective.

 

-OMG

 

Yeah camping a DP on an obective is a waste most of the time. It might be slightly less of a waste if its a Tzeentch Shooty DP though.

I was thinking more about moving a DP or Soulgrinder to an objective on turn 5 or so. Even then its entirely situational.

 

Overall though I agree that fast moving vehicles are one of our biggest headaches, (the other being Land Raiders/Monoliths).

[Seahawk]

I knew what you were talking about from the beginning, hence I said what I did. Even you suggested the best solution right off the bat: fiends. I use 12 without might, and they're always still alive by the end of the game (granted it's maybe 3-5 by that point, but still). These have the speed to catch nearly any fast vehicle with ease and the strength + rendy power to deal with them, even without the unholy might. Their two wounds keep them alive longer than one could expect.

 

With these I've never had a problem with furious fish lists; they've all just crumpled away, although the first time I played them I struggled to learn what to kill first. They don't produce that much firepower either, while the Eldar skimmers produce even less.

 

I can imagine that against Eldar it'd do just fine too, even against the MCs. The sheer amount of attacks by the fiends should rend them away without a problem.

[Hellios]

Eldar have Fast skimmers that are Tanks that can also bring the dakka just to a lesser degree. And yet, they also have high toughness MC units like Writhlords & Avatars. In order to ensure that your troops don’t get locked into unwinnable close combats hard choices must be made.

 

 

-OMG

 

Daemons do have a problem against my fully mechanized eldar army, someone suggested deepstriking really close but actually I would ds something scary close and something scary further back as with my star-engines if you land all in my deployment zone I will just do the eldar tank version of turbo boost and be in your deployment zone and then shoot you as you walk over (kills foot sloggers, although winged and cavalry get across pretty fast). so if you leave a winged guy in the middle he makes it harder for me to run :huh: (trying to cover all the bases if you like.)

 

Don't underestimate the dakka you can get from mounted fire dragons and dire avengers who probably have farseers with doom and guide.

[avatar8481]

Fiends are excellent for light tank hunting and MCs for AV 14 hunting. I like helios' battle plan, and the fiends are fast enough with fleet (18"-24" charge range) that you can sit them back and still hit everything but landraiders to death in one turn.

 

I find that I generally drop big tarpit PB units with Icons in close terrain Turn 1 and then bring everything else in off that, fiends, BT, Crushers. I tend not to take Grinders since I find DP with wings more effective, but that's just taste.

[Firedrake28]

It's against foes like these that fast moving dedicated shooting units shine against. Eldar and Tau really tend to dislike Heralds of Tzeentch in Chariots with Bolt of Tzeentch, Master of Sorcery and We Are Legion. The Heralds have a decent Toughness, tons of Wounds and a good save, so both the Tau and Eldar will need to focus a lot of firepower to bring down even one of these Chariots. Since they're Heralds we can take two per HQ choice.

 

Alternatively one can just roll with a single Lord of Change. He really doesn't need any upgrades to be an Eldar player's worst nightmare (fast, shooty and quite resilient) and even the massed high-Strength firepower of the Tau will struggle to bring the big birdie down.

[Corpse.]

I had decent luck so far with several 6's when I use bloodletters charging, since I often attack tanks that move over 6" and being common - taking down skimmers is not all that different to me. I just take for granted I use lots of str5 chargers/otherwise a good volume and land coverage with the various units I have to prevent them from escaping.