OwlandMoonGuy Posted July 14, 2009 Share Posted July 14, 2009 During ‘Ard Boyz I was told that it was illegal to pre-measure distance from icons when deep striking. As in, you need to place the model in guess range from the icon/homer, etc. and then measure to see if the corresponding unit fell within the 6” range. After rereading the rules I didn’t find a specific call one way or the other. Anyone else ever heard of this? If so do you have a reference in the rules somewhere? Thanks, -OMG Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/173409-pre-measuring-scatter-distance-from-iconshomers/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Souchan Posted July 14, 2009 Share Posted July 14, 2009 The only time one may pre measure is movement, as far as I can think of anyway. So typically you place the unit, then measure if they are within 6" or not and if not they still scatter. p3 contains the details for not measuring. p11 contains the one exception I know off the top of my head. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/173409-pre-measuring-scatter-distance-from-iconshomers/#findComment-2049548 Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShinyRhino Posted July 14, 2009 Share Posted July 14, 2009 Unfortunately, I feel it's like Souchan said. Premeasuring of any type beyond placing the tape on the table to move is not allowed. Drop your sergeant on the table, check the 6" range, and scatter appropriately (0" if within 6" of the homer). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/173409-pre-measuring-scatter-distance-from-iconshomers/#findComment-2049607 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted July 14, 2009 Share Posted July 14, 2009 Hm, I don't know. The rules for Teleport Homer and Locator Beacon allow deep striking units to be placed without scattering if they "choose to deep strike within 6" of them". On the one hand that might only mean they choose a point, and that point happens to be within 6" of the beacon. But to me it sounds like the unit deliberately chooses to deep strike safely within 6" of the beacon. Edit: Perhaps deep striking should not be compared to movement but rather to deployment. When deploying units at the start of the game you measure whether they are within the deployment zone or far enough away from enemy models. Likewise, I would say you can measure to place a deep striking unit exactly 1" away from enemy models. You would not be allowed to voluntarily place them there and would not be allowed to move there. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/173409-pre-measuring-scatter-distance-from-iconshomers/#findComment-2049646 Share on other sites More sharing options...
OwlandMoonGuy Posted July 14, 2009 Author Share Posted July 14, 2009 From the BRB, pg. 3, “In general, players are not allowed to measure any distance except when the rules call for it (e.g. after declaring an assault or firing at an enemy, to workout a rule's area of effect, when deploying their forces, etc).” From pg. 11, “It is perfectly fine to measure a unit's move in one direction, and then change your mind and decide to move it somewhere else (even the opposite way entirely!) or decide not to move it at all.” From Codex: SM, pg. 67, “If a unit wishes to arrive on the battlefield via deep strike and chooses to do so within 6” of a model carrying a locator beacon, then it won't scatter. Note that the locator beacon must already be on the table at the start of the turn for it to be used.” Similar language is used throughout. Ok, I’ll opt to play a bit of devil’s advocate here (since I’m playing Daemons anyway). How can I choose to place a model within 6” of something if not allowed to measure to determine that beforehand? Choosing seems to run contrary to guessing in this case. I would think that if guess & potential mis-estimations is part of the process it would have been mentioned somewhere. -OMG +++Sorry Legatus, caught me while I was composing my reply. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/173409-pre-measuring-scatter-distance-from-iconshomers/#findComment-2049650 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Isiah Posted July 14, 2009 Share Posted July 14, 2009 You're fine to measure as you're 'deploying' via deep strike. It's RAW as per p3 BRB example regarding measuring for deployment if nothing else. I have never been asked to guess within 6" of a homer ever, and I've deep struck many many times. Cheers I Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/173409-pre-measuring-scatter-distance-from-iconshomers/#findComment-2049719 Share on other sites More sharing options...
LPetersson Posted July 15, 2009 Share Posted July 15, 2009 Interestngly, there has just been this discussion over on LiveJournal. I personally agree with what was said there: I see it more as a beacon, where they don't know WHERE it is (at least in relation to the rest of the battlefield in a precise manner), just that they can teleport to it by locking on. Therefore if you try to teleport too far from your point of reference (pushing the 6" distance), you run the risk of being completely off by being outside the 'precision zone' granted by aiming your teleporter in the general direction of a beacon. In short, if you aim your dish from orbit at a dartboard that has a laser shooting out of it, you'll probably hit it. If you want to hit the triple 20, though, you run the risk of tilting the dish too far and missing the target completely, even if you know which direction to point it to hit the bullseye. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/173409-pre-measuring-scatter-distance-from-iconshomers/#findComment-2049893 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seahawk Posted July 15, 2009 Share Posted July 15, 2009 Well what about daemons: "Lesser Daemons must enter the game by Deep Striking within 6" of an Icon." That clearly entails that you must premeasure, at least for this case. I mean, what happens if you placed the starting model outside of 6"? DS mishap check because they landed in what could be deemed "impassable?" Okay dere... Actually, the rule given by whoever in the 'ard boyz clearly goes against the rulebook itself. With my own emphasis in bold, consider: In general, players are not allowed to measure any distance except when the rules call for it (e.g. after declaring an assault or firing at an enemy, to work out a rule's area of effect, when deploying their forces, etc).So, even there it references rules with an area effect, practically referencing such items like an icon/homer. I'd call total BS on that 'ard boyz bit, though if it's an official tournament rule change then I'd have to deal with it. If told by just some player that, I'd point out the truth ;). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/173409-pre-measuring-scatter-distance-from-iconshomers/#findComment-2049943 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Mage Posted July 15, 2009 Share Posted July 15, 2009 I think Seahawk here summed it up pretty well. Ive never had anyone complain about how I was DSing my units around beacons. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/173409-pre-measuring-scatter-distance-from-iconshomers/#findComment-2049968 Share on other sites More sharing options...
avatar8481 Posted July 15, 2009 Share Posted July 15, 2009 Also, given that the language is that the unit much be 'within' 6 inches (in the same sense as disembarking is 'within 2 inches' and KFF is the unit 'within' 6 inches.) I think you could play it that only the outermost ring of the DS'ing 'flower' has to be within the 6 inch homer range, essentially giving you an extra 3-4 inches if you deep-struck 7 or more terminators since the 'flower' is about 4 inches in diameter. I'm not sure if that'd be very friendly, but I can't see how the rules disallow it. The whole unit arrives simultaneously I think, and the convention of placing the sargeant is only for ease of play (I've made DS template movement trays though to make it even easier, and in that case I think you can see the operation of the 'unit within 6 inch' rule more easily. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/173409-pre-measuring-scatter-distance-from-iconshomers/#findComment-2050368 Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShinyRhino Posted July 15, 2009 Share Posted July 15, 2009 Yeah, I'll flip-flop on this one after seeing some of the quotes from the BRB. I also did not know about the rule for measuring movement on pg11. Awesome. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/173409-pre-measuring-scatter-distance-from-iconshomers/#findComment-2050403 Share on other sites More sharing options...
scribe215 Posted July 16, 2009 Share Posted July 16, 2009 As I read it deep strike is a method of deployment, and as such where applicable ( IE homers, icons, beacons) measuring would be fine. In a normal deployment you are not forced to guess your zone. Taking the earlier example of disembarking from a vehicle also suggests the sense in this. Also consider "regular" reserve entries where the measurement is allowed. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/173409-pre-measuring-scatter-distance-from-iconshomers/#findComment-2051440 Share on other sites More sharing options...
angronn Posted July 16, 2009 Share Posted July 16, 2009 Also, given that the language is that the unit much be 'within' 6 inches (in the same sense as disembarking is 'within 2 inches' and KFF is the unit 'within' 6 inches.) I think you could play it that only the outermost ring of the DS'ing 'flower' has to be within the 6 inch homer range, essentially giving you an extra 3-4 inches if you deep-struck 7 or more terminators since the 'flower' is about 4 inches in diameter. I'm not sure if that'd be very friendly, but I can't see how the rules disallow it. The whole unit arrives simultaneously I think, and the convention of placing the sargeant is only for ease of play (I've made DS template movement trays though to make it even easier, and in that case I think you can see the operation of the 'unit within 6 inch' rule more easily. Doesn't the first model placed have to be "within the zone"? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/173409-pre-measuring-scatter-distance-from-iconshomers/#findComment-2051756 Share on other sites More sharing options...
nighthawks Posted July 17, 2009 Share Posted July 17, 2009 Doesn't the first model placed have to be "within the zone"? yes. the "flower" touching the zone doesn't work as scatter is worked out on the designated "center" model about which the rest are placed. this is the one onto which homer / beacon effects would be applied, not the unit as a whole. if not explicitly stated, it certainly works best within the rules that are written. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/173409-pre-measuring-scatter-distance-from-iconshomers/#findComment-2052011 Share on other sites More sharing options...
avatar8481 Posted July 17, 2009 Share Posted July 17, 2009 From the BRB: P95: Place one model from the unit anywhere on the table, in the position you would like the unit to arrive [emphasis mine] From the description of homers/beacons: C:SM P67: If a unit wishes to arrive on the battlefield and chooses to do so within 6" then it [the unit] doesn't scatter; C:SM P101: If Terminators wish to...and choose to do so within 6" then they won't scatter. I don't see how the 6" zone isn't written to apply to the whole unit. Particularly given the assumed meaning of "within" used in other locations. Even if you're right, you can still get two bases worth of extra distance from the edge of the 6" zone since you can place the initial model just barely 'wthin' the 6 in and then another model in the flower outside the zone. There's no implication and certainly no language that suggests anything like, "unit entirely within 6"". Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/173409-pre-measuring-scatter-distance-from-iconshomers/#findComment-2052708 Share on other sites More sharing options...
nighthawks Posted July 17, 2009 Share Posted July 17, 2009 From the BRB: P95: Place one model from the unit anywhere on the table, in the position you would like the unit to arrive [emphasis mine] From the description of homers/beacons: C:SM P67: If a unit wishes to arrive on the battlefield and chooses to do so within 6" then it [the unit] doesn't scatter; C:SM P101: If Terminators wish to...and choose to do so within 6" then they won't scatter. ... There's no implication and certainly no language that suggests anything like, "unit entirely within 6"". If the UNIT must be placed within X" of the area effect, the single model used when determining scatter is irrelevant as the WHOLE "flower" of deepstriking models must be placed AND be within the effect area (at minimum a portion of their base to be consistant with other, better-illustrated rules). There's no implication and certainly no language that suggests anything like, "unit entirely within 6"". Agreed. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/173409-pre-measuring-scatter-distance-from-iconshomers/#findComment-2052730 Share on other sites More sharing options...
avatar8481 Posted July 17, 2009 Share Posted July 17, 2009 If the UNIT must be placed within X" of the area effect, the single model used when determining scatter is irrelevant as the WHOLE "flower" of deepstriking models must be placed AND be within the effect area (at minimum a portion of their base to be consistant with other, better-illustrated rules). I guess I'd refer to the fairly well-documented ruling on KFF where the 'unit' gets the benefit even if only one model is 'within' the 6" of the mekboy (or whatever it is, I don't have an ork codex). Your interpretation would seem to be inconsistent with that use of 'unit' and 'within' from that context (though there may be a mitigating factor I'm not aware of). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/173409-pre-measuring-scatter-distance-from-iconshomers/#findComment-2052736 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty the Pyro Posted July 17, 2009 Share Posted July 17, 2009 you dont place the flower untill after scatter, so only the inital model you place has to be within Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/173409-pre-measuring-scatter-distance-from-iconshomers/#findComment-2052881 Share on other sites More sharing options...
nighthawks Posted July 17, 2009 Share Posted July 17, 2009 you dont place the flower untill after scatter, so only the inital model you place has to be within I would fully agree with you, and have, but for the use of the word "unit" and a slighly conservative approach to beneficial readings. it's really more of a grey area / area easily read in contradictory ways. does anyone think this is worthy of the grey areeas thread? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/173409-pre-measuring-scatter-distance-from-iconshomers/#findComment-2052929 Share on other sites More sharing options...
OwlandMoonGuy Posted July 19, 2009 Author Share Posted July 19, 2009 This certainly has made it into the gray annuls for me. Not only is there ambiguity when it comes to guessing distance or not, due to the area affect = unit and not the initially placed model, some call needs to be made there as well. -OMG Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/173409-pre-measuring-scatter-distance-from-iconshomers/#findComment-2053767 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seahawk Posted July 19, 2009 Share Posted July 19, 2009 I don't see any ambiguity; it's clear as day in the rules that for certain effects you can premeasure the distance. Icons and homers fall under this category. However, whether or not the first model down or just any model in the unit thing would be a grey area. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/173409-pre-measuring-scatter-distance-from-iconshomers/#findComment-2054254 Share on other sites More sharing options...
OwlandMoonGuy Posted July 19, 2009 Author Share Posted July 19, 2009 Yep, just enough gray area that you need to get a judge to make a call at an official tourney. I would agree that the exception list provided on pg 3 goes a long way to making that aspect of the ruling clear. As with many such rulings it would be nice if GW had just added a few key words to make it iron clad. -OMG Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/173409-pre-measuring-scatter-distance-from-iconshomers/#findComment-2054296 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Isiah Posted July 21, 2009 Share Posted July 21, 2009 Interesting. When DSing any Deathwing squads I just make sure the sarge is within the 6", then 'flower' the other models around him. So some will be further in, others outside the 6" zone. Others do exactly the same... Looking at the wording for Teleport homers, as long as Terminators choose to do so within 6" of a model carrying a homer then they don't scatter. For me that means the first guy locks on (within the 6"), the rest lock onto him in the surronding 'flower'. The first model is the all-important one and is the one you can measure too. The whole mechanics of teleporting is based on the central model's positioning. I think expecting the whole unit to be within 6" also poses great practical difficulties - especially for Termies on 40mm bases. Their combined 'flower' diameter could be a 120mm - giving a 30-35mm 'clear space' (that's 6" minus 120mm) between homer and the innermost termy base. So, how would you effectively measure the first guy's approach? It would be difficult, as you'd need to measure first the 6" drop zone extent, then minus 40mm for one termy base, and then another 20mm for the radius of the first placed figure's base to use as your centre point!! That's a seriously complex bit of on the fly measuring. But I concede we all might be doing it wrong :lol: Cheers I Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/173409-pre-measuring-scatter-distance-from-iconshomers/#findComment-2056161 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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