Command Squad Outfitting

[Khavos]

So I'm trying desperately to come up with an assault-oriented 1500 point list that doesn't make use of TH/SS Terminators rolling in a Land Raider. I'd thought about Honor Guard, but the lack of an invulnerable save scares me away. Then I happened to check out the Command Squad a little more closely.

 

Unlike most other entries in the codex where a unit has the option to take Storm Shields, the Command Squad's entry doesn't specify that Storm Shields replace anything; it's a "may have" not a "may replace." So theoretically, couldn't I have a Command Squad kitted out with, say, Storm Bolters, Power Weapons, and Storm Shields, with maybe a Power Fist tossed in? I know it'd be expensive, but the Storm Shields with the Apothecary's Feel No Pain means (I think) that they could actually survive deploying for assault out of a Razorback or a Rhino, in that they can shoot for the turn they have to spend not assaulting upon disembarking, actually have a shot at surviving, and then get the assault off next turn. It'd be expensive, but not as expensive as similarly-outfitted Vanguard. Question is, is it killy, and is it even a good idea?

 

Along the same lines, am I missing something, or does the Command Squad version of the Champion suck? Power Weapon and Combat Shield? If I want to go for that WS 5, I have to give up the ability to give him a Storm Shield, which seems...bizarre.

 

Building an assault-focused list without making use of TH/SS terminators is surprisingly tough.

[Grey Mage]

Yes... you can give your four vets storm shields for 60pts, and power weapons for another 60... and then throw in a captain with armament... and itll get expensive quick.

 

Its quite possible, and probly quite killy. And yes... the champion does suck. Stick with a vet who has a PW+SS. WS 5 isnt that great... really.

 

As for the list.... your crazy. TH+SS terimes are not even close to being needed.

 

Shrike- 195pts.

 

5 Scouts- Combi-flamer, meltabombs- 90pts.

10 Scouts- 9x Sniperrifles, Missile Launcher, Cloakts- 180pts.

 

Dreadnaught- TLLC, EA- 150pts.

Dreadnaught- TLLC, EA- 150pts.

7 Sterngaurd Veterans- 2x ML, Lightning Claw- 200pts.

 

10 Assault Marines- Powerfist, 2x Flamers- 235pts

10 Assault Marines- Powerfist, 2x Flamers- 235pts

Landspeeder Storm- MM-65pts.

 

1500pts. 9-10KP, 2-3 scoring units. Really, your going for total annihilation here- youll need to be aware of the objectives and concentrate on thwarting your opponent at all costs.

 

You form up a firing line with the Dreads and the Sterngaurd, the Sniper Scouts flanking in cover. The LSS hides, and the Captain and his two squads of RAS deploy behind cover, Perhaps one of them infiltrated. Then you enjoy a 24" charge and 30 some attacks.

 

The LSS squad gives you some artillery hunting capabilities, the flamers give you a good option against large hordes like Orks and Gaunts that would bog you down- you want to be in and out of combat in 2 rounds exactly.

 

While the Sniper Squad is fairly static it can be combat squaded for objective missions when needed and provides a good firebase. Pinning is always nice, and may prove crucial to holding off an enemy counterassault. The Sterngaurd and Dreadnaughts provide ranged antitank, with the adaptable sterngaurd unit capable of hurting almost any unit in the game between MLs and their special ammo types- all three squads are also amazingly underestimated in close combat Id like to note.

 

Throw in the fleet from Mr. Shrike and your armies reach just got a bit longer, and will catch people off gaurd who are used to playing normal static marines or even mech-lists.

[Khavos]

Yes... you can give your four vets storm shields for 60pts, and power weapons for another 60... and then throw in a captain with armament... and itll get expensive quick.

 

Its quite possible, and probly quite killy. And yes... the champion does suck. Stick with a vet who has a PW+SS. WS 5 isnt that great... really.

 

And just to confirm, even with the Power Weapon and the Storm Shields, they still keep bolters as well, right? And those bolters can be replaced with combis or whatever?

 

As for the list.... your crazy. TH+SS terimes are not even close to being needed.

 

Shrike- 195pts.

 

I'd love to take a Shrike counts-as, I really would, especially since my DIY is a Raven Guard successor, but the Jump Pack/Relic Blade/Storm Shield/Artificer Armor/Digital Weapons captain is the same cost, more durable, and just as killy - and better at killing big gribblies, unless I'm wrong on that part. Doesn't come with the special rules, obviously, but meh.

 

As for the rest of the list, I'm still doing some tweaking, but I'll be posting it up for critique shortly. No dreads, unfortunately - don't have the models.

[eyescrossed]

Why have a Power weapon when you can have a Lightning Claw for the same cost? You're not gonig to be getting a bonus attack with the Power Weapon anyway, so you're shooting yourself in the foot there.

[TheReclusiarch]

This is how I play it.

 

First off, I take a HQ that is really hard hitting and with good defence - in my case, Lysander. One of his weaknesses is that he only has three attacks (although he gets to re-roll one miss!) and strike last. I choose my command squad to cover up that weakness. They have no weapons that strike last, so no thunder hammers, power fists etc. In fact, the only one that got a power weapon is the company champion, all others have chain swords. Other then that, I also have one veteran equipped with Storm Shield to aid in survivability, as well as a banner (but I admit, only because it looks cool!).

 

This command squad is not really that expensive, and does the job well! :D Here's a picture of it, might be easier to see what upgrades I have -> http://reclusiarch.deviantart.com/art/Spac...squad-124763122

[minigun762]

I'd say go with a cheap Command squad. Obligatory Power Fist Champi... umm Sarge I mean, and 2 Special Weapons.

I don't know why everyone feels the need to spam Storm Shields really. You are already getting a FnP save and if you really need to toss some Power Weapon attacks on something, your Captain is packing atleast a 4++ save.

[TheReclusiarch]

I'd say go with a cheap Command squad. Obligatory Power Fist Champi... umm Sarge I mean, and 2 Special Weapons.

I don't know why everyone feels the need to spam Storm Shields really. You are already getting a FnP save and if you really need to toss some Power Weapon attacks on something, your Captain is packing atleast a 4++ save.

 

Those that do not take Calgar or Lysander will be hesitant to allocate instant death wounds, like powerfist and lascannon shots, to their hero. Better to allocate the wound to a veteran with storm shield.

[minigun762]

I'd say go with a cheap Command squad. Obligatory Power Fist Champi... umm Sarge I mean, and 2 Special Weapons.

I don't know why everyone feels the need to spam Storm Shields really. You are already getting a FnP save and if you really need to toss some Power Weapon attacks on something, your Captain is packing atleast a 4++ save.

 

Those that do not take Calgar or Lysander will be hesitant to allocate instant death wounds, like powerfist and lascannon shots, to their hero. Better to allocate the wound to a veteran with storm shield.

 

True, you'd only want to do it with non-instant death attacks but then again, do you really need a dedicated LasCannon absorber in a squad thats probably mounted?

 

I'm not saying its not useful, but I think sometimes people want to give their squads every little bonus and fail to realize that if they had saved points here and there, they could have fielded a whole additional unit.

[Khavos]

I'm not saying its not useful, but I think sometimes people want to give their squads every little bonus and fail to realize that if they had saved points here and there, they could have fielded a whole additional unit.

 

That's true, but on the other hand what I'm looking for is a killy CC unit - Command Squad may not be ideal for that, but it looked like it might've had the potential. Think I'll probably just end up sticking with Vanguard.

[Koremu]

I'm not saying its not useful, but I think sometimes people want to give their squads every little bonus and fail to realize that if they had saved points here and there, they could have fielded a whole additional unit.

 

That's true, but on the other hand what I'm looking for is a killy CC unit - Command Squad may not be ideal for that, but it looked like it might've had the potential. Think I'll probably just end up sticking with Vanguard.

The thing with the Command Squad is that it is implicitly not the main event. The Brother-Captain is the main event. He is, on his own, the more significant part of the killing power of the squad - however you chose to equip him will dictate the playstyle, playability and power of the unit. By the same token, the Command Squad should be equipped to support him. They provide spare wounds, feel no pain and their weapon selection allows you to cover the captains weaknesses.

 

This example;

First off, I take a HQ that is really hard hitting and with good defence - in my case, Lysander. One of his weaknesses is that he only has three attacks (although he gets to re-roll one miss!) and strike last. I choose my command squad to cover up that weakness. They have no weapons that strike last, so no thunder hammers, power fists etc. In fact, the only one that got a power weapon is the company champion, all others have chain swords. Other then that, I also have one veteran equipped with Storm Shield to aid in survivability, as well as a banner (but I admit, only because it looks cool!).

 

This command squad is not really that expensive, and does the job well! <_< Here's a picture of it, might be easier to see what upgrades I have -> http://reclusiarch.deviantart.com/art/Spac...squad-124763122

 

is an exact match for my point. This Command Squad compensates for their captains weaknesses.

 

I use a Command Squad equipped with Thunder Hammer and several Plasma Guns (or occasionally Plasma Pistols) to aid Counts-As-Sicarius. 7 Plasma shots tends to hurt whatever you aim it at, while the Thunder Hammer covers Sicarius' own inability to dish out high STR vehicle busting hits. Sicarius himself is more than capable of dealing with Infantry with his I5 Power Sword, and his Coup de Gráce attack can kill even Carnifex given a chance.

 

Oh, and Reclusiarch. Lysander? With Feel No Pain? Brutal man, just brutal.

[TheReclusiarch]

Hehe, yes, Feel no Pain with a 2+ Armour save, 3+ invulnerability save, Eternal Warrior, 4 wound character is pretty nice! B) He don't go down easily, that's for sure!

[waaanial00]

Hehe, yes, Feel no Pain with a 2+ Armour save, 3+ invulnerability save, Eternal Warrior, 4 wound character is pretty nice! :rolleyes: He don't go down easily, that's for sure!

 

Guy I know does this and have 2 Storm Shield with 3 power weapons in there. It is by far the most expensive single unit in our club but hot damn does it kick ass. That unit is like a damn tick when its time to shift it off the board :)

 

Big support for equiping the command squad to make up the failures of the captain. Even most people favourite of Storm Shield and Relic Bladed Captain can benefit from having a shooty unit with flamers to add some anti hoard capabilities or just some pistols and chainswords to bulk up his lack of attacks.

 

Wan

[GreatEscape_13]

So I'm trying desperately to come up with an assault-oriented 1500 point list that doesn't make use of TH/SS Terminators rolling in a Land Raider.

 

Good for you. TH/SS termis have become the "default" for so many people, that thinking outside the box is a good plan.

 

I'd suggest that you keep the unit fairly cheap. Power fist or two and power weapon or two makes for a tough squad. Think more in terms of what it can do against all enemy foes, rather than what it would do against another single huge-point decked assault unit. Assault units are poorly used (in my opinion) in taking out the opponent's uber-assault group of doom. Just shoot such units to death. If it takes a bait squad to lure them out of their transport, or whatever, then that's fine. But don't try to go toe-to-toe with such a stacked unit. Just drown it in firepower, while your far less expensive assault units are making mincemeat of your opponent's less combat-oriented squads.

 

At least that's my $0.02.

 

Cheers.

[Khavos]

So I'm trying desperately to come up with an assault-oriented 1500 point list that doesn't make use of TH/SS Terminators rolling in a Land Raider.

 

Good for you. TH/SS termis have become the "default" for so many people, that thinking outside the box is a good plan.

 

I'd suggest that you keep the unit fairly cheap. Power fist or two and power weapon or two makes for a tough squad. Think more in terms of what it can do against all enemy foes, rather than what it would do against another single huge-point decked assault unit. Assault units are poorly used (in my opinion) in taking out the opponent's uber-assault group of doom. Just shoot such units to death. If it takes a bait squad to lure them out of their transport, or whatever, then that's fine. But don't try to go toe-to-toe with such a stacked unit. Just drown it in firepower, while your far less expensive assault units are making mincemeat of your opponent's less combat-oriented squads.

 

At least that's my $0.02.

 

Cheers.

 

I know that's the smart way to do it, honestly, but for whatever reason when I'm comparing options, I'm always doing it with a sort of, "Well, if they so happen to be right next to the other guy's elite infantry, it'd be good to be able to kill that, too, just in case," thought at the back of my mind. I know for a fact I'll probably throw my expensive assault unit up against something it shouldn't be fighting just to see how it fares until the string of losses finally convince me otherwise.

 

Sadly, as much as I'd like to avoid the TH/SS Terminators and a Land Raider combo, I think I will have to go for at least the Land Raider. It's the only way I can see to get footslogging assault units into combat, and footslogging assault units are the only way to get true elites; Vanguard kitted to be anything other than Assault Marines with an extra attack are just too expensive, and Assault Marines are just too middle of the road.

[minigun762]

I know that's the smart way to do it, honestly, but for whatever reason when I'm comparing options, I'm always doing it with a sort of, "Well, if they so happen to be right next to the other guy's elite infantry, it'd be good to be able to kill that, too, just in case," thought at the back of my mind. I know for a fact I'll probably throw my expensive assault unit up against something it shouldn't be fighting just to see how it fares until the string of losses finally convince me otherwise.

Remember that all those "what ifs" are going to cost you a fair amount of points. What you're trying to do is use a flexible unit to beat a dedicated unit in its own role and it just isn't cost effective. TH/SS Terminators, like Dark Eldar Wyches or Genestealers are 100% dedicated assault units, thats all they do. Trying to be an assault unit with another assault unit isn't the path to success. What I think you should do with a Command Squad is 1) minimize weaknesses of your Captain and 2) make a good multi-purpose squad. If you're next to the other guy's elite infantry, you shouldn't ask yourself how your elite infantry is going to kill it. You should instead ask "what can the rest of my army do to support me in killing this squad?". In most cases, a few rounds of Bolter fire is infinitely superior to trying slug it out against a superior assault unit.

 

Sadly, as much as I'd like to avoid the TH/SS Terminators and a Land Raider combo, I think I will have to go for at least the Land Raider. It's the only way I can see to get footslogging assault units into combat, and footslogging assault units are the only way to get true elites;

Land Raiders are the only way (outside Jump Packs) to make sure you get that charge in. However if you start to think of your squad as a counter-assault unit, the need for getting the charge is lessened. If you've already tied up their squad with some BP/CCW Scouts, you can take more time to get into HtH with the target for example.

[Khavos]

Remember that all those "what ifs" are going to cost you a fair amount of points. What you're trying to do is use a flexible unit to beat a dedicated unit in its own role and it just isn't cost effective. TH/SS Terminators, like Dark Eldar Wyches or Genestealers are 100% dedicated assault units, thats all they do.

 

Agreed, which is why I'll probably dump the Command Squad notion and go with either Honor Guard out of a Land Raider or a roughly 350 point, 8-man Vanguard squad.

 

Land Raiders are the only way (outside Jump Packs) to make sure you get that charge in. However if you start to think of your squad as a counter-assault unit, the need for getting the charge is lessened. If you've already tied up their squad with some BP/CCW Scouts, you can take more time to get into HtH with the target for example.

 

Very true, and that'd probably work quite well. It suffers from being dependent on transport, though, and if I'm going that route, I think I'd rather have AV14 all around than a Rhino, so we're back to the Land Raider. The fluff monkey on my back, unfortunately, isn't all that fond of a Land Raider in such a small battle - which is incidentally why the TH/SS terminators are out in the first place, so if I'm going with the Land Raider, might as well take the termies.

 

Building an assault-focused list without TH/SS terminators is gimp potential right off the bat; add in fluff restrictions and I might as well play blindfolded. But, c'est la vie.

[Koremu]

Land Raiders are the only way (outside Jump Packs) to make sure you get that charge in.

Bikes.

[minigun762]

Land Raiders are the only way (outside Jump Packs) to make sure you get that charge in.

Bikes.

 

True true, I forgot Loyalists actually have a reason to field them, unlike Chaos. :lol:

Agreed, which is why I'll probably dump the Command Squad notion and go with either Honor Guard out of a Land Raider or a roughly 350 point, 8-man Vanguard squad.

Building an assault-focused list without TH/SS terminators is gimp potential right off the bat

I wouldn't agree that you're gimped without TH/SS Terminators. Its not like they aren't a huge investment in your army.

You're spending nearly 700 points for a full squad in a LRC, thats alot in any army and that without putting an HQ unit in there.

You'd spend roughly the same on the Vanguard squad (assuming you go with a LRC).

 

I'm not trying to tell you not to play with a super assault death squad if thats what you want, but just realize that what you're listing is expensive.

Here are some other options I think are totally viable and much cheaper.

1) Command Squad, Power Fist Vet, 2 Flamer Vets, Company Champion, TL-Heavy Bolter Razorback

Total = 205 + Captain

2) Command Squad, Bikes, 2 Meltagun Vets, Thunder Hammer Vet

Total = 255 + Captain

3) 10 man Assault Squad, 2 Flamers, Power Fist Sarge

Total = 225 + Captain

4) 8 man Vanguard Squad, Relic Blade, Jump Packs

Total = 280 + Captain

5) 10 man BP/CCW Scout Squad, Power Fist, Land Raider

Total = 415 + Captain

 

Other then the last one, which is more for novelty and fun, all these squads are substantially cheaper then the ones you're looking at and able to win assaults against most basic units. The extra points you've saved would go a long way to buying some Vindicators or Multi-Melta Attack Bikes to handle those units like Assault Terminators that can actually beat you in HtH combat.

 

Just a thought.

[Khavos]

You're spending nearly 700 points for a full squad in a LRC, thats alot in any army and that without putting an HQ unit in there.

You'd spend roughly the same on the Vanguard squad (assuming you go with a LRC).

 

Buh? I must be missing something in your math - a 5-man Honor Guard squad with a Relic Blade and Banner clocks in at 225, and the LRR comes in at 250 with the Multimelta. The Vanguard Vet squad I'd be using in place of the HG/LRR comes in at 385, I think. Got the whole list up for review over in the list review section.

 

Other then the last one, which is more for novelty and fun, all these squads are substantially cheaper then the ones you're looking at and able to win assaults against most basic units. The extra points you've saved would go a long way to buying some Vindicators or Multi-Melta Attack Bikes to handle those units like Assault Terminators that can actually beat you in HtH combat.

 

The funny thing about Honor Guard is that they'd absolutely paste TH/SS termies, provided they got the charge. They put out an insane amount of attacks for a five-man unit, and they're all PW attacks, so you're forcing a five-man Terminator squad to make an awful lot of invulnerable saves. Throw in the Chapter Master and, at least in one of the lists I'm considering, a Chaplain, and the termies doesn't have a shot. That's a double-edged sword, though; as long as you're throwing them at the right targets, which is pretty much anything that doesn't strike before them, the HG will melt face. And promptly be shot to death in opponent's shooting 'cause they're not stuck in assault.

 

The jump pack Vanguard unit I'd be considering if I didn't go with HG/LRR put out only slightly more attacks, and not all of them are either a PW or Relic Blade, but they do pack some Storm Shields for durability, which the Honor Guard don't have access to. They're not cheap, but they're cheaper than the HG/LRR combo. I really can't decide which would be more effective, which is why I'm seeking feedback on the list.

[eyescrossed]

Buh? I must be missing something in your math - a 5-man Honor Guard squad with a Relic Blade and Banner clocks in at 225, and the LRR comes in at 250 with the Multimelta.

You forgot the Chapter Master.

[Khavos]

Buh? I must be missing something in your math - a 5-man Honor Guard squad with a Relic Blade and Banner clocks in at 225, and the LRR comes in at 250 with the Multimelta.

You forgot the Chapter Master.

 

Right on. Yeah, no doubt about it, it's expensive. So's the Vanguard. I can't decide which way to go.