Hotspur Posted July 15, 2009 Share Posted July 15, 2009 OK... so this is something I've wanted to rant about for a while. Now, we, as Space Wolves are the most ferocious army in the Imperium. The premier assault army of any of the SM's chapters. So could somebody please tell me why we got the LRE instead of something like the Baal Pred? In terms of assault fire power, doesn't the twin-link assault cannon make more sense than a twin-linked auto-cannon? And what about the sponsons? Heavy flamers are much more suited to an assault role than heavy bolters. So please tell me why the freakin' Blood Angels the get the awesome assault tank while we get a long-range Dakka Russ w/ an auto-cannon that only fires two shots! :D I know, I know, the LRE is named after the primarch, but I think Russ would be furious with anger if he saw the tank that was named after him! I know the LRE's armor is better than the BP's, but in terms of which is a better assault tank, I have to go with the BP. What say you guys, then, BP or LRE? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/173480-lre-vs-baal-pred/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolf Guard Hengist Posted July 15, 2009 Share Posted July 15, 2009 Uhm well I dont think we exactly just "got" the LRE and the Blood Angels just "got" the Baal Pred as hand outs, as far as I am aware the Blood Angels created the Baal Pred to suit thier Chapter Tactics. I think it was stated somehwere that the Predator Anhilator was a Space Wolf design originally which probably came from a need of some long range anti tank support. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/173480-lre-vs-baal-pred/#findComment-2050398 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spacefrisian Posted July 15, 2009 Share Posted July 15, 2009 The Baal Predator is also build from a Template found on.... Baal. Which happens to be the home of those Blood Angels. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/173480-lre-vs-baal-pred/#findComment-2050405 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tamwulf Posted July 15, 2009 Share Posted July 15, 2009 Current rumors have the Space Wolves losing the Leman Russ Exterminator in the new Codex and gaining a Land Raider variant with TL Assault Cannons. Like 3 of them! :D Something to consider though is that a Baal Pred has one TL Assault Cannon, and two sponsons with either two Heavy Flamers or Heavy Bolters, right? Or you can take a Leman Russ variant with a TL Autocannon, and a possible three Heavy Bolters... I would have rather a Leman Russ Punnisher from the new Guard Codex for the Space Wolves. ;) Or any of the other Leman Russ variants. I think we all realize how broken such a list would be with a MEQ army though. Kinda sad we'll be losing the Leman Russ though. "Sorry battle-brothers! We cannot use the tank named after our Primach, the greatest warrior the Imperium has ever seen! Instead, we must use this one named after some guy named Land, who was a borderline heretic searching for STD's- quit your giggling! Everyone knows that stands for Standard Template Designs! The honor of the name goes to a tank that the Imperial Guard operates. Hey! No groaning or belly aching! I am sure they will bring honor and glory to our Primarch's name! Now, onto other business. Someone made a mess in the feast hall last night and..." Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/173480-lre-vs-baal-pred/#findComment-2050413 Share on other sites More sharing options...
OnlyInDeath Posted July 15, 2009 Share Posted July 15, 2009 It was Decoy! I swear! Seriously though, I wouldn't really want a Baal. Especially not with HF sponsons. Being that close means you are in range of every meltagun on the board, on side armor. The LRE was built for ranged support, and at that, for a long time, it excelled. yes, the new version out of the guard dex is better in every way (cheaper, relentless, better main gun), but ours still has proved its worth: High front armor and horde stopping power has made it a nice addition, just a bit over priced. I will be sad to see it go, but as a Wolf, I sympathize with the IG, and they could definately use all the help they can get, so of course I'd like them to field our Primarch's tank. Now, If they try to explain away the new LR variant as a STC found on Fenris, i'll be disappointed in the fluff. Sure, why wouldn't the ancient's entrust one of thier memory storage devices to one of the most siesmically unstable planets in the Imperium, where the only stable landmass is found in the frozen north where predators the size of APCs roam at will. Sounds like a brilliant move.... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/173480-lre-vs-baal-pred/#findComment-2050439 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beef Posted July 15, 2009 Share Posted July 15, 2009 I doubt they will explain it like that in the FLuff. More likely they will explain it as a neccesaty like they did with the pred anilater. Maybe they will explain it by saying that seeing as all the SW wolfgaurd were no longer allowed so many asscannons they all decided to mount them on thier LR rather then put them in storage? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/173480-lre-vs-baal-pred/#findComment-2050691 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Mage Posted July 15, 2009 Share Posted July 15, 2009 Possibly. Though frankly if they gave us the new IG exterminators Id say were better off than the BA. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/173480-lre-vs-baal-pred/#findComment-2050698 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roguemarine Posted July 15, 2009 Share Posted July 15, 2009 Possibly. Though frankly if they gave us the new IG exterminators Id say were better off than the BA. agreed, the LME was a great addition to the SW army if only to have it on the table. It was pricey but still cool to play with if your army was themed. Sad to see it go, but thats what change does, i'm sure we will have something nice and beefy to take its place. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/173480-lre-vs-baal-pred/#findComment-2050759 Share on other sites More sharing options...
dragon950 Posted July 15, 2009 Share Posted July 15, 2009 I would rather have the Leman Russ, its better for long range fire than a Baal Predator. It also has a lascannon and 14 front armor which makes it a good tank fighting weapon. Would like to keep the leman russ, but if we get a land raider crusader with assualt cannons would be nice. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/173480-lre-vs-baal-pred/#findComment-2050761 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warhorse47 Posted July 15, 2009 Share Posted July 15, 2009 well, so far, ALL we have are rumors that we will keep/lose the Leman Russ. I hope we keep it as I love the beast. It sure would be nice to have another variant available even. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/173480-lre-vs-baal-pred/#findComment-2050797 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hotspur Posted July 15, 2009 Author Share Posted July 15, 2009 [quote name='Grey Mage' date='Jul 15 2009, 01:17 PM' post='2050698' Though frankly if they gave us the new IG exterminators Id say were better off than the BA. That's the one with that heavy 15 Gatling cannon on it, isn't it? If I'm not correct, though, that gun doesn't even have an AP value... I'm not too familiar w/ all of the IG's new tank variants, though, so I could be wrong. The one I think is really awesome is the Executioner, the one that has a heavy 2 plasma cannon on it. Now that would be sweet; a heavy 2 PC, and 2-3 HBs? Awesome! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/173480-lre-vs-baal-pred/#findComment-2050893 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarl Kjaran Coldheart Posted July 15, 2009 Share Posted July 15, 2009 the tank is heavy 20, S5 AP- the plasma tank is a heavy 3 turret, and can be kitted out with plasma sponsons....shudder..... WLK Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/173480-lre-vs-baal-pred/#findComment-2050925 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Mage Posted July 15, 2009 Share Posted July 15, 2009 Though frankly if they gave us the new IG exterminators Id say were better off than the BA. That's the one with that heavy 15 Gatling cannon on it, isn't it? If I'm not correct, though, that gun doesn't even have an AP value... I'm not too familiar w/ all of the IG's new tank variants, though, so I could be wrong. The one I think is really awesome is the Executioner, the one that has a heavy 2 plasma cannon on it. Now that would be sweet; a heavy 2 PC, and 2-3 HBs? Awesome! Actually its just got a four shot autocannon and better armor.... and a price reduction that puts it with sponsons around the price of a tri-las predator. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/173480-lre-vs-baal-pred/#findComment-2050993 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vash113 Posted July 16, 2009 Share Posted July 16, 2009 The punisher is just wonky and not that effective and the executioner (I think that's the plasma one) is just grossly overpowered in the extreme. Personally I'd be happy with the new Exterminator, nice armor, heavy 4 light armor piercing gun, heavy bolters. Great for adding some long range firepower to the Space Wolves. In fact that's always been the role of the LRE, adding firepower, either mobile or static and some heavy armor to the Wolves, our infantry aren't exactly suited for long range combat and it's always nice to have some support in the area. The LRE may not be an assault tank like the Baal but it helps cover the backs of the Assaulting Wolves and make up for a weakness in the army, far more valuable IMO than yet another assault tank and really I don't think the Baal is all that hot to be honest. Leman Russ all the way. If we do lose it I'll be a sad Space Wolf... :P Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/173480-lre-vs-baal-pred/#findComment-2051037 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skalver Posted July 16, 2009 Share Posted July 16, 2009 I suspect the reason has far more to do with the fact that when C:SW came out the Rhino and Predator models were still the original ones and probably due for a resculpt but not within a reasonable enough timeline that there was a point in giving the SW a unique Predator varient. On the other hand the Leman Russ tank was pretty new at the time and just needed a slight modification to fit in the SW Codex. Plus, it is named after Leman Russ after all ... You may as well ask why there are no Land Raider Crusaders in C:SW, the simple answer is they didn't exist at the time. Maybe in hindsight a Baal Predator is a better fit for SW than for BA (though that is debatable, BA are a pretty nasty close quarters force too) but I suspect the reason has much more to do with someone coming up with the idea for an Assault Cannon based Predator while they were working on C:BA and the fact that they had a newly sculpted Predator that they could ship more of with the new varient than it had to do with anyone actually thinking up the idea years in advance and deliberately deciding it was more fitting for the BA than for the SW. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/173480-lre-vs-baal-pred/#findComment-2051059 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warhorse47 Posted July 16, 2009 Share Posted July 16, 2009 Another reason I think we will keep the LRE is just because it's fun and fluff. This is a game after all and the different fluff flavors give the various armies a variety of strengths and weaknesses. Deathwing for the DA, Death Company and Baal for the Blood Angels, etc. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/173480-lre-vs-baal-pred/#findComment-2051083 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spacefrisian Posted July 16, 2009 Share Posted July 16, 2009 I do hope they keep the Leman Russ in. Those new Leman Russ kits are nice (seen one yesterday). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/173480-lre-vs-baal-pred/#findComment-2051233 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rocknar Posted July 16, 2009 Share Posted July 16, 2009 I am hopeing that we keep the LRE with the new upgrade form the IG codex. I have always found that the long range firepower it gives out, and with it's high armor. It is far better then the Baal and far more Fluffy. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/173480-lre-vs-baal-pred/#findComment-2051243 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Rao Posted July 16, 2009 Share Posted July 16, 2009 First off, it's highly debatable whether the SW are the epitome of an assault force. The SW seem to be more about aggressive defense rather than just hot-blooded in-yer-face assaultyness; that's the territory of the BA (and possibly the BT). Jervis Johnson even said so in his designer notes (UK WD245 or something) when he wrote the last SW dex; he wanted no "Blood Angels painted grey". Also, the SW seem to be very proficient at taking out masses of light troops with most of their units, certainly their infantry, especially the GHs. SW don't need tanks to help them in that department. At all. What they need from their tanks is long range AT, which is what the pred annihilator excels at (hey waddayaknow, a SW design!), and possibly the Godhammer LR with multi-melta (though the new LF with Relentless sound promising). What I'm trying to say is that the BA Baal pred would be about as much use to SW as tits to a boar. The LRE is slightly better - but not much - especially if you take the new IG variant with the 4 TL autocannon shots. However, even 4 autocannon shots do not really give the SW any significant anti-tank or anti-MC firepower they need (not everything can be compensated by BCs with PFs). This is, btw, something that has been discussed out the nose on many of the tacticts threads on this and other forums; I'm saying nothing new. Even if the new LR variant with the boatload of Assault Cannons comes out, I sincerely doubt it will fill a niche that's unoccupied now. It's likely to have a transport capacity of 12, otherwise it would simply obliterate the LRC, so the LRC would remain the final word on assault tanks (esp. for the BC bomb). It would then fall somewhere between the LRC and the LRR, which is nice, maybe very fluffy, but nothing original in terms of tactics. I have a LRE because I like the model (the fluff is actually quite lame imho), but I have yet to play a game in which the same pts. in troops would not have been a better deal - boy is that tank generally overpriced! And I normally play against unmechanised Orks and Eldar (what can I say, those guys don't like vehicles), which are probably amongst the BEST POSSIBLE targets for the LRE. Just my opinion. EDIT: Oh, and pls don't forget that in another case we get to take a tank made for someone else that really pays off tremendously for us - the LRC. Which was designed by/for the BT. LR Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/173480-lre-vs-baal-pred/#findComment-2051346 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Mage Posted July 17, 2009 Share Posted July 17, 2009 Yup... theyve contributed to our abilities in a very good way there. And weve helped make up for their lack of devastators by making the Predator Annhilator- so we generally agree were even ;). Decent points, but I have to disagree... I like the fluff, and the newer model of it has a position in the SW army- mobile heavy firepower. With the lumbering rule it can move and shoot at good effect and act in mobile support of our troops. Hull mounted lascannon or some multimeltas would allow it to actually be a good light tank hunter and a passable heavy one... for around 170pts, just over the price of a Tri-las predator and far more survivable... and mobile. Wich is perfect for a steady assault force that lacks squad heavy weapons and wants to get close to the enemy. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/173480-lre-vs-baal-pred/#findComment-2052206 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coverfire Posted July 17, 2009 Share Posted July 17, 2009 I remember reading that the Predator Annihilator was invented by Space Wolves while they were under siege. They had lascannons but not enough men to use them so they put them on the side of their predators; and since any loyal marine army can use them I pretend that we invented the exterminator instead and that we allowed the pattern to be used by the imperial guard... That is just how I have explained away the reason for us being allowed to us it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/173480-lre-vs-baal-pred/#findComment-2052350 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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