Pivot while Crew Stunned?

[Daredevil]

As the thread title suggests, can you pivot a vehicle when under that vehicle is under the effect of a Crew Stunned result? It seems a simple question really but I cannot seem to find an answer in either the rulebook or the FAQ.

 

 

Thanks,

 

// Daredevil

[Grey Mage]

Im going to say that if you cant move... that includes "free" moves.... like pivoting.

 

But your truely best bet would be to ask in the Official Rules forum at the bottom of the main page. Theyre really good there.

[Hubernator]

I think the general rule is when stunned you can't move it. I'm pretty sure that covers turning it as well

[Daredevil]

But your truely best bet would be to ask in the Official Rules forum at the bottom of the main page. Theyre really good there.

Nuts, I hadn't seen that subforum. Thanks!

 

 

// Daredevil

[GreatEscape_13]

What vehicle with different armor facings do you have that is not equipped with extra armor? That's the more pertinent question in my opinion...

 

But yeah, stunned means no movement and common sense says "includes no pivoting". If someone tried otherwise in a game, I'd need to see a very clear "stunned vehicles can indeed pivot" line in the big black rulebook.

 

Cheers.

[Isiah]

BRB page 57 under Vehicles and Movement:

 

"Pivoting on the spot alone does not count as moving, so a vehicle that only pivots in the Movement phase counts as stationary (however immobilised vehicles may not even pivot)."

 

So a Crew Stunned result is not a Damage Immobilised, and as pivoting doesn't count as a movement, you can still pivot on the spot when Stunned.

 

Cheers

I

[GreatEscape_13]

Well there you go. Makes no sense to me conceptually, but hey... RAW strikes again.

 

I can just picture the scene:

 

BOOM!

 

The tank shakes as an enemy shell strikes the side. The reverberation knocks both the driver and commander into the surrounding instrumentation... despite their power-armored protection they will take some time to overcome the stun.

 

The driver slumps forward, his addled form pressing down on the left drive lever. The tank slowly begins spinning in place, its treads chewing through the mud. Though shouts of "Advance! Advance!" are being shouted through the comms channel, the great metal vehicle can only pivot in place.

[Frosty the Pyro]

BRB page 57 under Vehicles and Movement:

 

"Pivoting on the spot alone does not count as moving, so a vehicle that only pivots in the Movement phase counts as stationary (however immobilised vehicles may not even pivot)."

 

So a Crew Stunned result is not a Damage Immobilised, and as pivoting doesn't count as a movement, you can still pivot on the spot when Stunned.

 

Cheers

I

 

 

Its also suported by internal consitency. Both the sections on being imobalized and the pert where it talks about pivoting it specificly mentions that being immobalized prevents pivoting. There is no such mention for being stunned. As wierd and unatural as it seams stunned vehicles can infact pivot.

[Isiah]

:P exactly

[SeattleDV8]

Sorry Isiah , but you are mistaken.

Pivoting does not 'count as ' moving for shooting.

It is considered moving BRB pg.67 Disembarking 1st bullet " If the vehicle has already moved (including pivoting...."

[waaanial00]

Sorry Isiah , but you are mistaken.

Pivoting does not 'count as ' moving for shooting.

It is considered moving BRB pg.67 Disembarking 1st bullet " If the vehicle has already moved (including pivoting...."

 

I dont believe that you are correct.

 

Lets digest the sentance portion

 

"If the vehicle has already moved (including pivoting...."

 

So what this is saying to me is "If vehicle A has moved or pivoted..." you cannot therefore draw a conclusion that pivoting is the same as moving because otherwise it would not need to be included. Nor is it neccessarily counted in the same bracket normally because otherwise you would not have to include it as a special case, due to a collective understanding that both fall under the same bracket of moving.

 

Well thats my understanding of it anyway. Plus from a purely RAW perspective we cant take an assumption based on a statement which applies to disembarking and use it as a logical extension for a similar set of rules. Especially when it specifically states in the rules for pivoting that the vehicle counts as stationary and the definition of stationary is an object which has not moved.

 

Wan

[rat of vengence]

But would you do this in a game, or a tourney?

 

"Look, I know it is completely stupid, but the rules say it can't move, not that it can't pivot, even though taking it this way is to my own advantage."

 

Not arguing the RAW here, or caring of the RAI, but would you do it in a game? I wouldn't.

 

RoV

[SeattleDV8]

The Key words are 'counts as'.

It is clear that the vehicle is moving when pivoting but it is ignored for determining which speed band (stationary, combat, cruising or flat out) you put the vehicles movement for shooting.

The disembarking rules back this up that the pivoting is movment.

Stunning stops all movement.

Being stationary does not mean it does not move , for example an Ork trukk with a Red Paint Job can move 1" but 'count as' stationary.

[maturin]

"If the vehicle has already moved (including pivoting...."

 

So what this is saying to me is "If vehicle A has moved or pivoted..." you cannot therefore draw a conclusion that pivoting is the same as moving because otherwise it would not need to be included. Nor is it neccessarily counted in the same bracket normally because otherwise you would not have to include it as a special case, due to a collective understanding that both fall under the same bracket of moving.

 

I'll add my voice to the other side here, Wan.

 

Your assumption that "moved (including pivoting)" is the same as "moved or pivoted" is in error. I read the use of the word "including" as a specific one to point out that pivoting is a subclassification of moving - and they're using the parenthetical statement as an example to clear up a potentially fuzzy issue. Otherwise they would have, as you said, simply wrote "moved or pivoted"...in which case I would agree that they're two separate things. Hey - they're including more detail in their rules. Let's give GW some credit for actually attempting to be specific and clear. ^_^

 

I agree with SeattleDV8 here - pivoting "counts as" being stationary for firing, but is actually movement (and is done in the movement phase to boot). And as rat of vengence pointed out, it's the right thing to do in a game anyways, if you don't want to be seen as a jerk .

[Isiah]

I agree with SeattleDV8 here - pivoting "counts as" being stationary for firing, but is actually movement (and is done in the movement phase to boot).

 

Well RAW is clear: Pivoting is not movement. There is nothing in the BRB p57 that says this is related to shooting only, and exceptions to this are noted where appropriate elsewhere i.e. in the disembarking rules.

 

 

Lets remind ourselves of the question:

 

As the thread title suggests, can you pivot a vehicle when under that vehicle is under the effect of a Crew Stunned result? It seems a simple question really but I cannot seem to find an answer in either the rulebook or the FAQ.

 

And pertinent to this, apart from the general rules on movement on p57, there is no exception in the Crew Stunned result to say a vehicle can't pivot (unlike in Damage Immobilised).

[SeattleDV8]

I would say you have that backwards , Isiah .

Pivoting has an exception when determining which movement band it comes under, it 'counts as' stationary.

You really are moving the vehicle as shown in the disembarking rules.

[Isiah]

I can't see that SeattleDV8.

 

It's the disembarking rule that is specifically stated as being different to the general "pivoting isn't moving rule".

[SeattleDV8]

Not so, the Embarking and disembarking rules mention pivoting is "included" as movement where in the vehicle movement pivoting "counts as" something esle.

In the rule when ever the phrase 'count as' is used is an exception.

For example.

Relentless troops 'count as ' stationary even if they have moved.

A set of twin-linked weapons 'count as' a single weapon with a re-roll.

A rending weapon 'counts as' AP 2 when a 6 is rolled.

There are many more examples in the rules that show that 'counts as' is the exception.

[F3d3x]

It says that Pivoting on the spot does not count as moving. That does not read: Pivoting is not moving.

[nighthawks]

It says that Pivoting on the spot does not count as moving. That does not read: Pivoting is not moving.

In other words, pivoting does not affect shooting like linear movement (therefore does not "count as" moving), but IS still movement and subject to the restrictions of "crew stunned." I tend to agree.